Gay Pride Season.

[Moonlight Graham]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Well in a sense state propaganda is exactly what they do.  If the state is the embodiment of what the electorate wants for public policy, and the education establishment is the organization that executes education policy then ... yes ... state propaganda is what they're about.  

....

Should they be saying that underage sex, that pre-marital sex, masturbation is the way someone should live ?  Absolutely not.  They should, and do, paint with a broad brush with the focus on health and the option to opt-out given to parents.

And that approach should be applied to many other things that we're not discussing here... things that people on the other side of the political spectrum get upset about such as Hallowe'en, Remembrance Day.  My two cents.

2. I don't see a problem with the government providing support for Pride as it's mostly supported as a secular celebration.  If you want to articulate a principle that doesn't single out Pride and thereby removes government support for certain things you will probably snag some other things in your net such as cultural events and so on.

3.  I know you don't but you need to also know that unless you can articulate a PRINCIPLE behind how government decides objectively what they will or will not fund then you are simultaneously saying you don't have issues with Pride while singling it out for removal from government funding so...

1.  Right, schools can teach about pre-marital sex, masturbation, abortion etc since these are facts that exist, just like they can teach about LGBT issues or the existence of Pride celebrations.  However, it's totally inappropriate for public schools to take positions of support or non-support over these issues.

Should conservative provincial governments be able to push curriculum that celebrates pro-life or "sex before marriage is bad" positions, even raising a pro-life flag or celebrating "pro-life month"?  This shouldn't be a thing, and you'd probably have an issue with it as a parent as would others.

2.  Gov funding is different than celebrating the event itself, like putting up Pride flags on city buildings, city hall etc.  Would you be ok with pro-life flags at Queen's Park, or a flag representing being against youth medical gender transitions, or teaching those values in public schools?

3.  I never said anything about funding.  I'm talking about the state itself taking part in/celebrating such events.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

They can send their kids to religious schools if they don't like the content of the public curriculum. Problem solved.

 

So you would be ok with conservative provincial governments like in Alberta teaching in public schools that abortion is wrong?  Or that youth medical gender transitions are unethical?   If some parents like yourself don't like it they can send their kids to separate schools as you say, right?

Pride and LGBT issues can be in the curriculum, since they're realities that exist in our world.  Teaching being for or against Pride or LGBT issues is inappropriate.  Public schools are in the business of teaching children facts/knowledge and how to think critically, not telling them what opinions/beliefs to have.

Edited June 13, 2024 by Moonlight Graham

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  Right, schools can teach about pre-marital sex, masturbation, abortion etc since these are facts that exist, just like they can teach about LGBT issues or the existence of Pride celebrations.  However, it's totally inappropriate for public schools to take positions of support or non-support over these issues.

2. Should conservative provincial governments be able to push curriculum that celebrates pro-life or "sex before marriage is bad" positions, even raising a pro-life flag or celebrating "pro-life month"? 

3. This shouldn't be a thing, and you'd probably have an issue with it as a parent as would others.

4.  Gov funding is different than celebrating the event itself, like putting up Pride flags on city buildings, city hall etc.  Would you be ok with pro-life flags at Queen's Park, or a flag representing being against youth medical gender transitions, or teaching those values in public schools?

5.  I never said anything about funding.  I'm talking about the state itself taking part in/celebrating such events.

1. They sure don't teach "support" explicitly but implicitly... if the schools are talking about it it's part of life and therefore a reasonable opinion right ?  They teach morality and civics, so inclusion is part of it.
2. No.
3. Right.
4. Is "pro life" the opposite of Pride ?  I don't think your analogy applies.  "Pro life" or "pro abortion" are positions on an issue.  Governments don't celebrate anything in that area.  Pride is a celebration, ostensibly of inclusion.  The analogy doesn't quite fit in my books.  Are there other public festivals that receive money that some find objectionable ?

Lately I've been going back to Hallowe'en which is a nice one because hardscrabble Christians don't like it, nor do some Muslims or people who value 'equity' as I understand.  What principles are used to determine if/how a celebration comes into a school, a classroom, the public square and whether or not it gets funded?

It's the arena of politics and - chances are - if they are actually celebrating something then it's not that controversial.  

5. I don't know how 'the state' takes part in a celebration.  It seems like an abstract idea that we're trying to nail down.  Maybe compare again to Hallowe'en or Oktoberfest ... I don't know.

I do appreciate that we are entirely talking about this on a meta level.  Convince me !

[herbie]

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Schools can teach about LGBT.  I'm not anti-LGBT, chill. 

Exactly what I'm "pushing down their throats"....😆

It's like pushing anti-segregation down their throats in 1963 Alabama.... teachers have to counter much of the BS that parents pass on.
Like humans can't be moral without being religious, and the right denomination at that FFS.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

I don't think a guy who identifies as "asexual" should be throwing around terms like "perfectly normal".

I can be intimate just fine.

I don't think you understand what asexuality entails without Google. 

2 hours ago, Black Dog said:

means violence is justified

Nope. Means violence is likely to occur due to it. It doesn't justify any of it. Nice try, though.

[Black Dog]

20 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

So you would be ok with conservative provincial governments like in Alberta teaching in public schools that abortion is wrong?  Or that youth medical gender transitions are unethical?   If some parents like yourself don't like it they can send their kids to separate schools as you say, right?

No because those are bad things.

Quote

Pride and LGBT issues can be in the curriculum, since they're realities that exist in our world.  Teaching being for or against Pride or LGBT issues is inappropriate.  Public schools are in the business of teaching children facts/knowledge and how to think critically, not telling them what opinions/beliefs to have.

So schools shouldn't teach kids things like "racism is wrong", they should just let them come to their own conclusions or what.

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't think you understand what asexuality entails without Google. 

Are you telling us or asking us to Google it?

[Black Dog]

8 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I can be intimate just fine.

I don't think you understand what asexuality entails without Google. 

Well I'm pretty sure you're not producing your own offspring so that leaves you as a person who isn't sexually attracted to other people.

Quote

Nope. Means violence is likely to occur due to it. It doesn't justify any of it. Nice try, though.

Sure it does, you think it's a normal and understandable reaction and the victims are responsible.

[Moonlight Graham]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. They sure don't teach "support" explicitly but implicitly... if the schools are talking about it it's part of life and therefore a reasonable opinion right ?  They teach morality and civics, so inclusion is part of it.
2. No.
3. Right.
4. Is "pro life" the opposite of Pride ?  I don't think your analogy applies.  "Pro life" or "pro abortion" are positions on an issue.  Governments don't celebrate anything in that area.  Pride is a celebration, ostensibly of inclusion.  The analogy doesn't quite fit in my books.  Are there other public festivals that receive money that some find objectionable ?

5.  Lately I've been going back to Hallowe'en which is a nice one because hardscrabble Christians don't like it, nor do some Muslims or people who value 'equity' as I understand.  What principles are used to determine if/how a celebration comes into a school, a classroom, the public square and whether or not it gets funded?

6.  It's the arena of politics and - chances are - if they are actually celebrating something then it's not that controversial.  

7. I don't know how 'the state' takes part in a celebration.  It seems like an abstract idea that we're trying to nail down.  Maybe compare again to Hallowe'en or Oktoberfest ... I don't know.

I do appreciate that we are entirely talking about this on a meta level.  Convince me !

1.  Some schools put up Pride flags during the month and give outright support like teachers/admin speeches in celebrating "Pride month".  This is different than teaching the existence of Pride month as a fact within a classroom.  Inclusion doesn't mean a school has to celebrate everyone's celebration.  Schools have an obligation to be tolerant, and following anti-discrimination laws we now have.  They don't have an obligation to celebrate everyone's beliefs, choices, feelings etc in order to make everyone feel validated.  Students should be allowed to be gay or dress like the opposite sex.

4.  I don't know what's the opposite of "Pride", or the conservative version of Pride.  I've done my best.  Feel free to think of better examples.  Pride is the celebration of LGBT people and is quite obviously giving a thumbs-up to those lifestyles that are essential to all LGBT people.  ie. You can be tolerant of trans people without actively celebrating their lifestyle choices.  There's obviously political implications here, and opinions on issues.

5.  As for Halloween, yes its a good example.  I don't know the answer to your question, it's a tough one.  As for "funding", i'm not talking about that.  I'm talking about the very act of "celebrating".

6.  Disagree.  We're talking about it right now, therefore there's some controversy around it.  If Alberta public schools started preaching anti-trans stuff it would also be controversial, though most in AB would probably agree with it.

7.  I've already said how:  putting up Pride flags at city buildings, or at public schools.

[Moonlight Graham]

48 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

No because those are bad things.

And who determines what is good or bad?

Quote

So schools shouldn't teach kids things like "racism is wrong", they should just let them come to their own conclusions or what.

Since there'd be school policies against students and teachers being racist, not to mention laws, as well as our media (especially those geared towards younger people) now constantly giving anti-racism messaging, i'm sure they can figure it out.

[Black Dog]

16 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

And who determines what is good or bad?

I do, obviously.

Quote

Since there'd be school policies against students and teachers being racist, not to mention laws, as well as our media (especially those geared towards younger people) now constantly giving anti-racism messaging, i'm sure they can figure it out.

LOL what a dodge. Answer the question: if you were a teacher asked by a student "is racism wrong?" what would your response be given you can't actually say that it is?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

Well I'm pretty sure you're not producing your own offspring

Am confused as to what stops an asexual from reproduction. 

Do you even know what asexuality is? 

If you're trying to mock my sexuality, you need to work a little harder than that o_O.

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

Sure it does, you think it's a normal and understandable reaction

Am pointing out the obvious. I can point it in statistics in case you need things spelled out. 

You constantly divide, and then you create anger. This will often spill into violence. Its not okay, but it is precisely what is happening.

Not sure how and when I said it was perfectly fine to assault someone from the LGBTQ community.

You're an incredibly lazy debater, who tries to put words in people's mouths and counter with your opinion to match the situation, and use it as an aha statement.

When called out, you bail.

You're not the person who should be teaching me on morals.

[Black Dog]

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

Am confused as to what stops an asexual from reproduction. 

Nothing I just can't imagine why an asexual would bother given the whole "not be interested in sex" thing that's the whole deal.

Quote

 

Do you even know what asexuality is? 

If you're trying to mock my sexuality, you need to work a little harder than that o_O.

Yes, but I'm starting to wonder if you do. and I'm not mocking your sexuality, I'm pointing out that you're not "normal."

Quote

Am pointing out the obvious. I can point it in statistics in case you need things spelled out. 

You constantly divide, and then you create anger. This will often spill into violence. Its not okay, but it is precisely what is happening.

"Constantly divide" wtf does that even mean? "Create anger" if a rainbow flag makes you angry enough to commits violence, that's on you.

Quote

Not sure how and when I said it was perfectly fine to assault someone from the LGBTQ community.

I didn't say you said it was fine, I said you think it's normal and understandable. And you do!

Quote

You're an incredibly lazy debater, who tries to put words in people's mouths and counter with your opinion to match the situation, and use it as an aha statement.

You were literally just putting words in my mouth.

Quote

When called out, you bail.

I'm right here.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Nothing

Glad you're keeping up. Good job. 

8 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Yes

Good to hear. You had me worried for a second.

9 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

that's on you

Or those who commit violence. You can't pin point where I said its justified. The whole thread is watching. I will wait. 

Or is this a classic you bailing out, again.

10 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

And you do!

Pointing to something as a matter of fact isn't okaying it, just like being asexual doesn't mean I can't have sex and have kids. 🤪

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You are framing things in a way that I consider exclusionary and anti-Christian.  

Just telling you what the Bible teaches.  Biblical Christianity is exclusionary.  It excludes all other religions and belief systems.  If you don't believe me, study it yourself.

[Black Dog]

6 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Glad you're keeping up. Good job. 🤪

Not sure what reproducing has to do with anything. I simply pointed out that asexuality isn't normal so it's funny that a deviant like you thinks they can police the boundaries of normalcy.

Quote

Or those who commit violence. You can't pin point where I said its justified. The whole thread is watching. I will wait. 

Do you know what the word "justify" means? "to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable." You clearly think violence is a reasonable and understandable response to the LGBTQ community "dividing..." whatever it is they're dividing.

Quote

Pointing to something as a matter of fact isn't okaying it, just like being asexual doesn't mean I can't have sex and have kids. 

See I don't think it's an understandable reaction to rainbow flags and stuff and i think it's f*cked that you do.

I bet $100 if someone said "firebombing an Jewish school is an understandable reaction to what's happening in Gaza" you'd lose your sh*t.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

I do, obviously.

Yes society should revolve around your narcissism.

Quote

LOL what a dodge. Answer the question: if you were a teacher asked by a student "is racism wrong?" what would your response be given you can't actually say that it is?

I answered your question.  You're in no position to make demands of me.

Ironic that you actually dodged my question above, and constantly dodge questions and arguments with jokes and insults.

 

Edited June 13, 2024 by Moonlight Graham

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  Some schools put up Pride flags during the month and give outright support like teachers/admin speeches in celebrating "Pride month".  This is different than teaching the existence of Pride month as a fact within a classroom. 

2. They don't have an obligation to celebrate everyone's beliefs, choices, feelings etc in order to make everyone feel validated.   

3.  I don't know what's the opposite of "Pride", or the conservative version of Pride.  I've done my best.  Feel free to think of better examples.

4. Pride is the celebration of LGBT people and is quite obviously giving a thumbs-up to those lifestyles that are essential to all LGBT people. 

5. ie. You can be tolerant of trans people without actively celebrating their lifestyle choices.  There's obviously political implications here, and opinions on issues.

6.  As for Halloween, yes its a good example.  I don't know the answer to your question, it's a tough one. 

7.  Disagree.  We're talking about it right now, therefore there's some controversy around it.  If Alberta public schools started preaching anti-trans stuff it would also be controversial, though most in AB would probably agree with it.

 

1. Ok, sure.  It's hard to parse... Is putting the Rainbow flag up taking a position of support of LGBTQ issues though?  The wording sounds stronger than what they're doing.  Celebrating?  Yes I agree they're celebrating.  What?  I would say inclusion above all.   There are a lot of straight people at Pride.  It's not a gay only event.

2. No, but they can.  

3. I suggested Halloween.

4. Thumbs up as in enjoy and be happy.  Not as in you have to do this or think it's a good idea.

5. The politics comes out in what will stand, how it plays in Peoria etc.  Same sex marriage was shot down in the 1990s by the Liberal party.  And in the 2000s by Obama.  Once support ticked past 50% in the polls, they all came out and bravely joined the rainbow parades.

6. Exactly.  Just by conceding that it's a tough one, you qualify to listen to both sides.   I found the Trinity University case to be the toughest one, and didn't agree with the ruling.

7. It wasn't controversial ten years ago, why now?  Is the measurement for controversy that some are talking about online?  I hope not.

[CdnFox]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, sure.  It's hard to parse... Is putting the Rainbow flag up taking a position of support of LGBTQ issues though? 

Come on Mike. Of course it absolutely 100% is. That's why they don't fly Nazi Flags. When you fly a flag it is literally a recognition of and a declaration of your acceptance and acknowledgment in support of the organization or country you're flying the flag for.

That's why they want it done. If it had no meaning they wouldn't bother. 

[Black Dog]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Yes society should revolve around your narcissism.

Yes.

Quote

I answered your question.  You're in no position to make demands of me.

Ironic that you actually dodged my question above, and constantly dodge questions and arguments with jokes and insults.

You dodged my question you great goofball. I asked if you think schools should teach that racism is wrong and you response was "uh, they'll just figure it out themselves" lol. Incredible lack of self-awareness.

 

Edited June 14, 2024 by Black Dog

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Black Dog said:

pointed out that asexuality isn't normal

Whats abnormal about it? 

You do understand that an asexual can have a healthy sex life, right?

Like what is your end game here? Utter failure? Poiting out your lack of knowledge other than the Google definition you read to sound smart, about asexuality? o_O.

2 hours ago, Black Dog said:

deviant

How am I a deviant? Am married and have a healthy sex life. Again. Enlighten us. How am I a deviant?

2 hours ago, Black Dog said:

See I don't think it's an understandable reaction to rainbow flags

So you're telling me there hasn't been an increase in hate crimes? I don't understand it, either, but was pointing it out. You're reaching so hard trying to act like I okay the acts of violence without proof, you come across as someone without an argument to bring to the table.

2 hours ago, Black Dog said:

I bet $100

I bet 100$, your reply will reach and insert things I didn't say or do, as fact, or run and hide from the BS you're spewing.

You can send me the cash via text.

I promise it will go to a good cause.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

 Of course it absolutely 100% is. 

All LGBTQ issues ?  I don't think that's so.  I think it's a general expression of support, not anything specific, not any "issues"...

[CdnFox]

19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

All LGBTQ issues ?  I don't think that's so.  I think it's a general expression of support, not anything specific, not any "issues"...

The LGBTQ Flag?  Are they flying a portion of the flag only or something?  

You're trying to split a hair that can't be split.  Unless they put some sort of disclaimer stapled to the flag as to what they do or don't agree with or support then it's support for all the issues as a whole. 

You could not reasonably fly a nazi flag and say "Oh i disagree with many of their individual issues but generally i support Hitler's innovative solution to using the swiss and gold deposits to stabilize runaway inflation. "  NOBODY would buy that, they'd say flying that flag showed support for ALL nazi ideals and was unacceptable. 

Now - if you disagree with that, and i agree with it, and another feels differently again, then that means that the flag is contentious and will cause friction between us and in the case of race or orientation that manifests as bigotry and hatred between the group, and i do mean both ways. 

And no school should be taking any action that will increase bigotry and hatred in our society. Bigotry and hatred is bad. 

 

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Yes.

You dodged my question you great goofball. I asked if you think schools should teach that racism is wrong and you response was "uh, they'll just figure it out themselves" lol. Incredible lack of self-awareness.

 

That's clearly a "no".

[blackbird]

"The biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah is recorded in Genesis. Genesis 18 records the Lord and two angels coming to speak with Abraham. The Lord informed Abraham that “the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous” (Genesis 18:20). Verses 22–33 record Abraham pleading with the Lord to have mercy on Sodom and Gomorrah because of the righteous people who might be there. Abraham’s nephew, Lot, and his family lived in Sodom.

Genesis 19 records the two angels, disguised as human men, visiting Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot met the angels in the city square and urged them to stay at his house. The angels agreed. The Bible then reveals the sin lurking in the Sodomites’ hearts: “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them’” (Genesis 19:4–5). The angels proceeded to blind the men surrounding the house and urge Lot and his family to flee the city. The wrath of God was about to fall. Lot and his family fled the city, and then “the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities” (Genesis 19:24).

What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? According to Genesis 19, the sin involved homosexuality. The very name of that ancient city has given us the term sodomy, in the sense of “copulation between two men, whether consensual or forced.” Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual acts on what they thought were two men.

This is not to say that homosexuality was the only reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Ezekiel 16:49–50 gives some more insight: “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.” So, the sins of Sodom included pride, apathy, complacency, idleness, and unconcern for the underprivileged.

Ezekiel 16:50 adds that a sin of Sodom was that they did “detestable things.” The Hebrew word translated “detestable” refers to something that is morally disgusting. It is the same word used in Leviticus 18:22, where homosexuality is an “abomination.” Jude 1:7 also weighs in: “Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.” So, again, while homosexuality was not the only sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, it does appear to be the primary reason for the destruction of those cities.

Those who attempt to explain away the biblical condemnations of homosexuality claim that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitality. That’s one of the sins—the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were certainly being inhospitable. There is probably nothing more inhospitable than homosexual gang rape. But to say God destroyed two cities and all their inhabitants simply for being inhospitable ignores some obvious details of the story.

Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of many other sins, but homosexuality was the principal reason God poured fiery sulfur on the cities, completely destroying them and all of their inhabitants. To this day, the area where Sodom and Gomorrah were located remains a desolate wasteland. Sodom and Gomorrah serve as a powerful example of how God feels about sin in general and homosexuality specifically."

What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? | GotQuestions.org