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As Kids, They Thought They Were Trans. They No Longer Do. (or why it's ok for parents to question)


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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I know of a teacher who has a student, Edwina, who is dressing very boyish like.  Has asked everyone at school to call them 'Eddy'.  The parents are thought to not be ok with this.  The teachers are following the student's wishes. 

THen they're bad people.  Delibeately hiding critical medical information from the parents is wrong

And what is going to happen to 'eddy' when in a few years his family finds out - and then finds out that he lied to them and told everyone else it was because he thinks they're bad parents.  You feel that will make them MORE accpeting?

ANd if that leads to eddy being kicked from the family for being a dishonest liar as encouraged by his teacher - will the teacher suffer any reprocussions? No?

Your friend has no business being a teacher and is a scumbag who puts children at risk for their own sad ideology.

and that's why we need a law.

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6 hours ago, CdnFox said:

THen they're bad people.  Delibeately hiding critical medical information from the parents is wrong

And what is going to happen to 'eddy' when in a few years his family finds out - and then finds out that he lied to them and told everyone else it was because he thinks they're bad parents.  You feel that will make them MORE accpeting?

ANd if that leads to eddy being kicked from the family for being a dishonest liar as encouraged by his teacher - will the teacher suffer any reprocussions? No?

Your friend has no business being a teacher and is a scumbag who puts children at risk for their own sad ideology.

and that's why we need a law.

How could they not know?  They know.

The narrative that the teachers put the idea on the kid's head is fiction.  

If the family kicks Eddy out of the family, it validates the approach IMO.  Their job is to love their child.

Your children aren't your possessions.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

How could they not know?  They know.

The narrative that the teachers put the idea on the kid's head is fiction.  

If the family kicks Eddy out of the family, it validates the approach IMO.  Their job is to love their child.

Your children aren't your possessions.

You think that the state has more primacy in matters of child-rearing than parents.  No educator or other figure should have the right to keep secrets from parents about what they are saying to kids and what kids are saying to these third party adults, except in cases of abuse or neglect.  It’s pure interference and creates all sorts of possibilities for abuse or just plain bad influences.

I know you say otherwise about yourself, but your opinions show that you like very invasive forms of government and education.  Whenever this level of interference is allowed we end up with messes like Residential Schools.

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35 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. You think that the state has more primacy in matters of child-rearing than parents.  No educator or other figure should have the right to keep secrets from parents about what they are saying to kids and what kids are saying to these third party adults, except in cases of abuse or neglect. 

2. I know you say otherwise about yourself, but your opinions show that you like very invasive forms of government and education.  Whenever this level of interference is allowed we end up with messes like Residential Schools.

1. I wouldn't call it a secret.  The staff and students all know this.  The student may indeed have told the parent.  The parent does know.

Mandating the teacher to reveal behaviours of this kind to the parent dictates state primacy more than the status quo.  As the community is simply using its judgment.

2. I wouldn't call it invasive at all.  The students know about the world, and they make their own decisions as we did.  If the student dressed in a feminine manner, and liked the name Eddy would the teacher be obliged to snitch to the parent, in your view?  What if she wore jeans.

Would you have a list of state approved clothing and behaviours?  If the student doesn't conform, you report them?

 

Or do you have... what's it called again... freedom?

To be clear, I do think that there's a line at which the parent should be engaged but wearing certain clothes and using nicknames isn't it.

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It has been labled on this forum that this situation is a mental disorder. It isn't, but it is a real condition. It is a situation that must be treated. The most effective treatment by far has been gender re-assignment surgery. Being transgender is different from conventional cross dressing. Cross dressing is a choice. Being transgender is a condition you are born with. So far, the only viable treatment is surgery. 

The cause of the frequency of suicidal behaviour is the result of a lack of support from family and friends and the individual having to deal with a situation they do not understand. That is why it is essential that children learn about gender issues before they actually have to face them Knowledge is power.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I wouldn't call it a secret.  The staff and students all know this.  The student may indeed have told the parent.  The parent does know.

Mandating the teacher to reveal behaviours of this kind to the parent dictates state primacy more than the status quo.  As the community is simply using its judgment.

2. I wouldn't call it invasive at all.  The students know about the world, and they make their own decisions as we did.  If the student dressed in a feminine manner, and liked the name Eddy would the teacher be obliged to snitch to the parent, in your view?  What if she wore jeans.

Would you have a list of state approved clothing and behaviours?  If the student doesn't conform, you report them?

 

Or do you have... what's it called again... freedom?

To be clear, I do think that there's a line at which the parent should be engaged but wearing certain clothes and using nicknames isn't it.

Disingenuous.  I’ve said before that nicknames and dressing as another gender aren’t a big deal.  It’s when it becomes official or required in how a school teacher and other students refer to someone that the problem arises, because parents chose a name, that’s the name on the birth certificate, and it should be the name on the report card unless the parents approve a name change for their child.  An adult can seek a name change for himself or herself.

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27 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It has been labled on this forum that this situation is a mental disorder. It isn't, but it is a real condition. It is a situation that must be treated. The most effective treatment by far has been gender re-assignment surgery. Being transgender is different from conventional cross dressing. Cross dressing is a choice. Being transgender is a condition you are born with. So far, the only viable treatment is surgery. 

The cause of the frequency of suicidal behaviour is the result of a lack of support from family and friends and the individual having to deal with a situation they do not understand. That is why it is essential that children learn about gender issues before they actually have to face them Knowledge is power.

You don’t seem to recognize that most cases of dysphoria are temporary or managed without surgery.  The consequences of sterilization are real.  You can’t put that genie back in the bottle.  To simply affirm and act on what a child feels this year or for awhile is irresponsible.  Adults have the benefit of experience and knowledge to make medical decisions for themselves. I wouldn’t want to saddle a person with lifetime consequences for a decision made in childhood when hormones are changing and many kids are trying to cope with their natural transitions through puberty to adulthood.

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11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

My school would tell my parents everything. This is mostly about pre-adolescent kids.

1. Here is a brief summary, which is hard to find above the din of shrieking transgender activists, page after page only giving their reactions as "shocked, scared, demoralized, hurt..."

2. - Gender reassignment surgery is to be banned for those 17 and under.

- For those 15 and under, puberty blockers and hormone therapies for the purpose of gender reassignment or affirmation would not be allowed, except for those who have already begun the process.

3. - Youth who are 16 and 17 can begin hormone therapies if they are deemed mature enough and have parent, physician and psychologist approval.

4. - In the classroom, parents would have to be notified and give consent for their child to be taught about gender identity, human sexuality and sexual orientation.

5. - All third-party resource materials used to teach these subjects from kindergarten through Grade 12 must be approved in advance by the education ministry.

6. - The province will also work with sport organizations to ensure women and girls do not have to compete against transgender female athletes. Transgender athletes would have a chance to compete through expanded coed leagues or other gender-neutral divisions.

7. I simply do not see anything wrong with this. It still lets people make that decision for themselves once they are at a certain age. They won't need to get permission from their parents.

1. Here's my response, which is hard to get to due to the sheiking on this thread, from people who seem to only be responding out of gut-level reaction rather than thoughtfulness or empathy.  And make no mistake - the politics behind this is aimed directly at people on this thread, not the activists, the impacted families or - god forbid - the kids.
2. Which is pure politics.  Every time someone repeats this it reinforces that it's pure politics.  Bottom surgery does NOT happen and top surgery might happen, but the numbers are low and not separated from other breast surgeries that are of course permitted.
3. So a 15 year old with parent, physician and psychologist approval now has the state saying they know better than parents or the medical community.  That's the point here, parental rights are thereby reduced although the politics says the opposite.
4. And this wasn't an issue before the culture war, so teenage pregnancy education is now on the table again thanks to American politics effectively.
5. I can't believe that this wasn't the case before... don't they approve curriculum materials for health ?  No idea.  Let's Google this...  Yes, sure looks like it. https://education.alberta.ca/healthy-schools/program-supports/everyone/comprehensive-school-health-program-supports/

So - objectively - what do you call a policy that simply repeats something that is already in place ?  

6. Personally I think this part is ok, especially the centrality of the sports organizations.

7. It doesn't let people make a decision for themselves, in some cases after puberty has begun - even if their parents approve.

------------------------------

This is the only part I'm very interested in discussing: implications for the public sphere.  As indicated in the OP there may be a REAL problem out there.  Our "public" as typified in this thread is more interested in spouting morality rather than engaging in difficult conversations.  Both sides spout morality and insults back and forth at each other, and the culture war is the home field for the discussion.

The real problem is the newest (and under covered) front in that war, which is for medical professionals to forgo full psychiatric evaluations.  That's serious, and if true needs remediation.  i don't know if that's in the policy or not but nobody seems to be talking about it on the podiums, in the media or here.

If the public sphere were healthy we'd be talking about problems instead of our own morality and so on...

12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Disingenuous.  I’ve said before that nicknames and dressing as another gender aren’t a big deal.  It’s when it becomes official or required in how a school teacher and other students refer to someone that the problem arises, because parents chose a name, that’s the name on the birth certificate, and it should be the name on the report card unless the parents approve a name change for their child.  An adult can seek a name change for himself or herself.

Of course it's on the report card.  But it's a pretty grey area to delve into what a name means.

The age 18 isn't a magical number.  I sure as hell knew I was straight and cis long before that age and I was a late bloomer... Anecdotal I know, but we don't have any trans posters or parents of trans folks left here to weight in.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

2, Bottom surgery does NOT happen and top surgery might happen, but the numbers are low and not separated from other breast surgeries that are of course permitted.
3. So a 15 year old with parent, physician and psychologist approval now has the state saying they know better than parents or the medical community.  That's the point here, parental rights are thereby reduced although the politics says the opposite.
4. And this wasn't an issue before the culture war, so teenage pregnancy education is now on the table again thanks to American politics effectively.
5. I can't believe that this wasn't the case before... don't they approve curriculum materials for health ?  No idea.  Let's Google this...  Yes, sure looks like it. https://education.alberta.ca/healthy-schools/program-supports/everyone/comprehensive-school-health-program-supports/

So - objectively - what do you call a policy that simply repeats something that is already in place ?  

6. Personally I think this part is ok, especially the centrality of the sports organizations.

7. It doesn't let people make a decision for themselves, in some cases after puberty has begun - even if their parents approve.

8. The age 18 isn't a magical number.

2. I assume in the first place that the number of people wanting gender reassignment surgery is very low. I saw some numbers like < 1%. But since this whole issue "blew up" in the media I saw some numbers indicating interest in it among youth has risen to 3%. Assuming 3/0.5, that's a six-fold increase. We know children are highly vulnerable to suggestion and persuasion, and some of this increase is due to that.

How many does it take before it becomes a problem, in your opinion?

3. There has to be some kind of a number. Just as there are some kids who are more mature than others at a younger age, but they still can't legally drink alcohol or drive a car, or have sex. They simply have to wait before making such a permanent, life-altering decision.

4. This point gives respect and acknowledgement to people who want to raise their children in conservative ways. For example devout religious people, Christians, Muslims and Jews. They deserve to be comfortable and feel safe as well as liberals.

5. There have been documented cases of teachers bringing in guest speakers, including one incident I'm aware of where a rep. from a consulting was invited to speak in the classroom. They distributed material to the students that was deemed inappropriate by some parents. Law suits can come into play. The school needs to protect itself and the students from harm.

7, 8. These age limits are based on guidelines given by professionals, child psychologists for the majority of students. There are exceptions, but they simply have to wait. See 3.

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11 hours ago, CdnFox said:

THen they're bad people.  Delibeately hiding critical medical information from the parents is wrong

"Critical medial information?" it's a nickname dawg.

Quote

And what is going to happen to 'eddy' when in a few years his family finds out - and then finds out that he lied to them and told everyone else it was because he thinks they're bad parents.  You feel that will make them MORE accpeting?

ANd if that leads to eddy being kicked from the family for being a dishonest liar as encouraged by his teacher - will the teacher suffer any reprocussions? No?

Maybe he can get out of the house and away from the people he's obviously afraid of before that happens. 

Quote

 

Your friend has no business being a teacher and is a scumbag who puts children at risk for their own sad ideology.

and that's why we need a law.

 

"We need a law so parents who will kick their kids out for being trans can find out early and kick them out while they're young!"

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4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You think that the state has more primacy in matters of child-rearing than parents.  No educator or other figure should have the right to keep secrets from parents about what they are saying to kids and what kids are saying to these third party adults, except in cases of abuse or neglect.  It’s pure interference and creates all sorts of possibilities for abuse or just plain bad influences.

I know you say otherwise about yourself, but your opinions show that you like very invasive forms of government and education.  Whenever this level of interference is allowed we end up with messes like Residential Schools.

So it's ok for a kid to tell a teacher that they're being abused without it getting back to their parents but information that might lead to a kid being abused must be shared with the parents?

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6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. I assume in the first place that the number of people wanting gender reassignment surgery is very low. I saw some numbers like < 1%. But since this whole issue "blew up" in the media I saw some numbers indicating interest in it among youth has risen to 3%. Assuming 3/0.5, that's a six-fold increase. We know children are highly vulnerable to suggestion and persuasion, and some of this increase is due to that.

How many does it take before it becomes a problem, in your opinion?

2. There has to be some kind of a number. Just as there are some kids who are more mature than others at a younger age, but they still can't legally drink alcohol or drive a car, or have sex. They simply have to wait before making such a permanent, life-altering decision.

3. This point gives respect and acknowledgement to people who want to raise their children in conservative ways. For example devout religious people, Christians, Muslims and Jews. They deserve to be comfortable and feel safe as well as liberals.

4. There have been documented cases of teachers bringing in guest speakers, including one incident I'm aware of where a rep. from a consulting was invited to speak in the classroom. They distributed material to the students that was deemed inappropriate by some parents. Law suits can come into play. The school needs to protect itself and the students from harm.

5. These age limits are based on guidelines given by professionals, child psychologists for the majority of students. There are exceptions, but they simply have to wait. See 3.

1. Is the problem that people want it ?  Or that people are getting it ?  I don't understand what you are asking because they are prevented from getting it anyway.   
2. If the number is low enough to cover the onset of puberty then sure.  But 18 is adult age and as has been pointed out, is too old in some cases.
3.  I think that that was already in place though: https://www.alberta.ca/education-guide-policies#jumplinks-3
4.  Already covered, I think, as per above.
5.  Well, I didn't hear that before but I'm interested.  Do you have a cite ?

---------

I am going to reiterate my point until I think people are getting it: this is most impactful in terms of the public sphere.  

What are the facts ?  Which of these represent problems ?  Who thinks they're problems and why ?  What is the response going to be ?  What are the plusses/minuses ?  Who is against the response and why ?  What's the plan B ?  How do we assess/accommodate legitimate exceptions and dissent ?

Legislation that bans things that are already illegal: what is the point of that ?  Policies that agitate people into voting, that give the appearance of action ... how do we as a public feel about it ?

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5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

How could they not know?  They know.

Oh so you mean  the parents ARE informed and the teacher is aware of it. 

Well then there's no need to inform them. They are already informed. That is NOT what your original draft of your story said.

Come on.  Pick a story and share it and we can talk about it but if you're going to change the plot as you go it gets hard to have a conversation.

24 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

So it's ok for a kid to tell a teacher that they're being abused without it getting back to their parents but information that might lead to a kid being abused must be shared with the parents?

Are you INSANE? It would be ILLEGAL for the teacher NOT to tell people if the kid says they're being abused!!!! They would immediately have to report it to the police or social services and you BET the parents will hear about it!

In what universe did you think it was ok for someone NOT to report child abuse? Holy shit - where the hell did you grow up that your kind of thinking would be ok?!?

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2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Are you INSANE? It would be ILLEGAL for the teacher NOT to tell people if the kid says they're being abused!!!! They would immediately have to report it to the police or social services and you BET the parents will hear about it!

In what universe did you think it was ok for someone NOT to report child abuse? Holy shit - where the hell did you grow up that your kind of thinking would be ok?!?

What the hell are you talking about you illiterate ape. Who said anything about not reporting child abuse?

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25 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

So it's ok for a kid to tell a teacher that they're being abused without it getting back to their parents but information that might lead to a kid being abused must be shared with the parents?

 

Are you INSANE? It would be ILLEGAL for the teacher NOT to tell people if the kid says they're being abused!!!! They would immediately have to report it to the police or social services and you BET the parents will hear about it!

In what universe did you think it was ok for someone NOT to report child abuse? Holy shit - where the hell did you grow up that your kind of thinking would be ok?!?

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Just now, Black Dog said:

What the hell are you talking about you illiterate ape. Who said anything about not reporting child abuse?

Oh sorry - i forgot i needed to explain it to the preschoolers in the room

YOU did.  Your quote:

Quote

So it's ok for a kid to tell a teacher that they're being abused without it getting back to their parents

No - the teacher MUST REPORT IT and it will definitely get back to the parents when the cops knock on their door.

IF a teacher knows the kid is being abused they MUST report.

You must be a pretty sick little puppy to think it's ok for teachers to just let child abuse slide.  Tho honestly the more I see of you the less surprising that is.

 

BTW - for those reading along my original reply was attached to a previous post, and i broke it out and made it a seperate post but he replied to it while i was doing that so that's why it looks like he replied before i posted it. The quotes are still the same.

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36 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

So it's ok for a kid to tell a teacher that they're being abused without it getting back to their parents but information that might lead to a kid being abused must be shared with the parents?

Not at all.  In any situation where abuse is suspected or reported to the educator there’s a legal requirement to report to Children’s Aid Society, and rightfully so.  

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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Here's my response, which is hard to get to due to the sheiking on this thread, from people who seem to only be responding out of gut-level reaction rather than thoughtfulness or empathy.  And make no mistake - the politics behind this is aimed directly at people on this thread, not the activists, the impacted families or - god forbid - the kids.
2. Which is pure politics.  Every time someone repeats this it reinforces that it's pure politics.  Bottom surgery does NOT happen and top surgery might happen, but the numbers are low and not separated from other breast surgeries that are of course permitted.
3. So a 15 year old with parent, physician and psychologist approval now has the state saying they know better than parents or the medical community.  That's the point here, parental rights are thereby reduced although the politics says the opposite.
4. And this wasn't an issue before the culture war, so teenage pregnancy education is now on the table again thanks to American politics effectively.
5. I can't believe that this wasn't the case before... don't they approve curriculum materials for health ?  No idea.  Let's Google this...  Yes, sure looks like it. https://education.alberta.ca/healthy-schools/program-supports/everyone/comprehensive-school-health-program-supports/

So - objectively - what do you call a policy that simply repeats something that is already in place ?  

6. Personally I think this part is ok, especially the centrality of the sports organizations.

7. It doesn't let people make a decision for themselves, in some cases after puberty has begun - even if their parents approve.

------------------------------

This is the only part I'm very interested in discussing: implications for the public sphere.  As indicated in the OP there may be a REAL problem out there.  Our "public" as typified in this thread is more interested in spouting morality rather than engaging in difficult conversations.  Both sides spout morality and insults back and forth at each other, and the culture war is the home field for the discussion.

The real problem is the newest (and under covered) front in that war, which is for medical professionals to forgo full psychiatric evaluations.  That's serious, and if true needs remediation.  i don't know if that's in the policy or not but nobody seems to be talking about it on the podiums, in the media or here.

If the public sphere were healthy we'd be talking about problems instead of our own morality and so on...

Of course it's on the report card.  But it's a pretty grey area to delve into what a name means.

The age 18 isn't a magical number.  I sure as hell knew I was straight and cis long before that age and I was a late bloomer... Anecdotal I know, but we don't have any trans posters or parents of trans folks left here to weight in.

Well you get your age 16 personal choice in medical decisions despite the fact that we don’t trust 16 year olds to be informed and smart enough to vote or drink.  Laws require some hard caps or abuses happen.  Also, medical practitioners have opinions about whether a gender reassignment (that’s cosmetic except that you lose your fertility) is the right path based on their own beliefs about gender.  Gender isn’t a hard and established science.  It’s an issue on which there are different ethical stances.  It’s another reason why only a responsible adult should be making such radical decisions about oneself.  Are there exceptions to the rule in highly exceptional situations like for hermaphrodites?  Perhaps, but where there’s much debate and uncertainty, err on the side of caution.

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31 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

1. Oh so you mean  the parents ARE informed and the teacher is aware of it. 

2. Well then there's no need to inform them. They are already informed. That is NOT what your original draft of your story said.

3. Come on.  Pick a story and share it and we can talk about it but if you're going to change the plot as you go it gets hard to have a conversation.

 

1. The parents know what is happening with the child.  There's no official communication as it's regarded as a private matter.
2. They weren't informed by the school.
3. I didn't mean to mislead anyone.  Let me answer any questions if I'm still unclear.
 

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5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. Well you get your age 16 personal choice in medical decisions despite the fact that we don’t trust 16 year olds to be informed and smart enough to vote or drink.  

2. Laws require some hard caps or abuses happen.  Also, medical practitioners have opinions about whether a gender reassignment (that’s cosmetic except that you lose your fertility) is the right path based on their own beliefs about gender.  

3. Gender isn’t a hard and established science.  It’s an issue on which there are different ethical stances.  

4. It’s another reason why only a responsible adult should be making such radical decisions about oneself.   Are there exceptions to the rule in highly exceptional situations like for hermaphrodites?  Perhaps, but where there’s much debate and uncertainty, err on the side of caution.

1. Yes... but that isn't the age as far as I know.  It's variable, from what I have read.
2.Yes, but you have to trust a doctor to be objective to a point. There are limits on that, but the system assumes that medical professionals look at these things objectively.
3. Hmmmm... I agree with the first part, but I think the ethics come under the oath that doctors take in order to practice.
4. I like that you are erring on the side of caution.  This is why medical consultation is needed in the first place.  This is why bottom surgery is not allowed until long after puberty...

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36 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Oh sorry - i forgot i needed to explain it to the preschoolers in the room

YOU did.  Your quote:

No - the teacher MUST REPORT IT and it will definitely get back to the parents when the cops knock on their door.

IF a teacher knows the kid is being abused they MUST report.

You must be a pretty sick little puppy to think it's ok for teachers to just let child abuse slide.  Tho honestly the more I see of you the less surprising that is.

 

BTW - for those reading along my original reply was attached to a previous post, and i broke it out and made it a seperate post but he replied to it while i was doing that so that's why it looks like he replied before i posted it. The quotes are still the same.

You literally cropped out the question mark in my original quote to make it look like a statement, did you think I was gonna miss that? What a dishonest piece of shit you are.

On the off chance you weren't playing silly buggers, I still have no idea how you would read that and come away thinking "this guy doesn't want teachers to report abuse"

 

28 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not at all.  In any situation where abuse is suspected or reported to the educator there’s a legal requirement to report to Children’s Aid Society, and rightfully so.  

Yes but if a kid goes to a teacher and says "I think I'm trans, but I can't tell my parents because my dad will kick the shit out of me" you think the law should require the teacher say "lol too bad, I'm calling the old man right now".

Edited by Black Dog
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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You don’t seem to recognize that most cases of dysphoria are temporary or managed without surgery.  The consequences of sterilization are real.  You can’t put that genie back in the bottle.  To simply affirm and act on what a child feels this year or for awhile is irresponsible.  Adults have the benefit of experience and knowledge to make medical decisions for themselves. I wouldn’t want to saddle a person with lifetime consequences for a decision made in childhood when hormones are changing and many kids are trying to cope with their natural transitions through puberty to adulthood.

You really don't know how this works. Each case is stringently assessed before a candidate can have surgery. Blockers also require assessment. A kid can't just walk into a pharmacy and buy some puberty blockers.

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3 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

You literally cropped out the question mark in my original quote to make it look like a statement, did you think I was gonna miss that? What a dishonest piece of shit you are.

Full quote was in the original reply liar.

So yes - that was YOUR contention.  Nobody else suggested it.  Nobody else even hinted that would be ok. You were the only one.

I get why you might be trying to back peddle now seeing as it was so stupid. But yeah - that was all you kiddo.  But i love you pretending you don't understand English now :) 

 

 

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