Aristides Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: Suicide is a sin, but the question of consequence isn’t one any of us can answer. No one knows what’s in someone’s heart, what mental health or biochemical issues or pain someone is enduring. Judge not lest you be judged. I do think we’ve strayed from an honest accounting of things on many issues. Poison is not medicine. Killing is not treatment. MAID is putting a bullet in Old Yeller. It’s what we do to sick animals that people can’t afford to treat. I say this because we do have powerful painkillers and treatments. Skipping to poisoning someone to death is ultimately giving up. You can provide euphemistic descriptions and compelling arguments for doing so, but that’s what it is. As people throw in the towel in greater numbers, it’s hard not to see a general devaluation of life underway. Suicide and killing are being normalized. People make their own choice when and how they will die, the comparison to putting down an animal is rediculous. You would dope the crap out of someone against their will just to satisfy your own beliefs. Judge not lest you be judged. What hypocrisy when you are the one doing the judging. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 9 hours ago, GroundskeeperWillie said: Those things aren't playing God, IMHO. They are called receiving medical treatment. You need to learn the difference between receiving something and having it forced on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 (edited) 4 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Individuals decide if they want to die. Doctors determine if they’re eligible for assistance to do so give specific criteria. Aren’t you the one who says the Pope was sent by the devil to infiltrate the church, or something like that? I think you have a long way to go in maturity and morality. You don’t seem to know what’s healthy or good other than a weak anything goes pleasure principle. It’s nihilistic. You don’t know it because you don’t have the language yet to describe your worldview. My only advice is to stop making excuses for lousy morality and seek wisdom. Edited February 1 by Zeitgeist 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 (edited) 4 hours ago, Aristides said: People make their own choice when and how they will die, the comparison to putting down an animal is rediculous. You would dope the crap out of someone against their will just to satisfy your own beliefs. Judge not lest you be judged. What hypocrisy when you are the one doing the judging. You don’t value human life if you think suicide is fine. It’s not. That doesn’t mean that people don’t do a lot of things that are not fine as a means of coping, such as using drugs or alcohol excessively and other forms of self-harm. You’re failing to make a distinction between the sin and the sinner. It’s a typical modern fallacy. I don’t judge people, but one must make judgments about behaviour in order to act rightly. You’ll find many like-minded people, which is why we have MAID. It’s also one of the factors that represents Canada’s moral decline. Edited February 1 by Zeitgeist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 45 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: You don’t value human life if you think suicide is fine. It’s not. That doesn’t mean that people don’t do a lot of things that are not fine as a means of coping, such as using drugs or alcohol excessively and other forms of self-harm. You’re failing to make a distinction between the sin and the sinner. It’s a typical modern fallacy. I don’t judge people, but one must make judgments about behaviour in order to act rightly. You’ll find many like-minded people, which is why we have MAID. It also one of the factors that represents Canada’s moral decline. I value life so much that I don't feel I have the right to control how others live it. I think a suicide is at tragedy, not a sin. Keep your sins between yourself and your god. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 Just now, Aristides said: I value life so much that I don't feel I have the right to control how others live it. I think a suicide is at tragedy, not a sin. Keep your sins between yourself and your god. No, it’s objectively wrong as an act. That isn’t judging the person. Good people do things that aren’t good sometimes. What we should avoid is leaning into our weakness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: No, it’s objectively wrong as an act. That isn’t judging the person. Good people do things that aren’t good sometimes. What we should avoid is leaning into our weakness. You are judging the person if you say it is a sin. What is good for them isn't up to you. I respect that you don't like the idea of MAID but you don't have the right to control other's lives according to your personal beliefs. If you tell an ALS patient that they can't end their own lives when they know that it will kill them but their brain will be the only thing in their body still functioning before that happens and they want to end it before that, you are the immoral and inhumane one. We have the ability to keep the bodies of brain dead people functioning with machines and extending lives of terminal patients, sentencing them to live the rest of their lives in pain only controlled with massive amounts of drugs. Should we do that, let nature take its course or actually help them do what they want? Should DNR's not be allowed? Should not those people have some control over their own future? Shouldn't that be their choice? Edited February 1 by Aristides 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroundskeeperWillie Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 3 hours ago, Aristides said: You need to learn the difference between receiving something and having it forced on you. First of all, I never said anything is forced on people. Secondly, don't tell me that I need to learn something. 6 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Individuals decide if they want to die. Doctors determine if they’re eligible for assistance to do so give specific criteria. Which is just another way of saying they are determining who is fit to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 10 minutes ago, GroundskeeperWillie said: First of all, I never said anything is forced on people. Secondly, don't tell me that I need to learn something. Well what did you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aristides said: You are judging the person if you say it is a sin. What is good for them isn't up to you. I respect that you don't like the idea of MAID but you don't have the right to control other's lives according to your personal beliefs. If you tell an ALS patient that they can't end their own lives when they know that it will kill them but their brain will be the only thing in their body still functioning before that happens and they want to end it before that, you are the immoral and inhumane one. We have the ability to keep the bodies of brain dead people functioning with machines and extending lives of terminal patients, sentencing them to live the rest of their lives in pain only controlled with massive amounts of drugs. Should we do that, let nature take its course or actually help them do what they want? Should DNR's not be allowed? Should not those people have some control over their own future? Shouldn't that be their choice? You can choose to end your own life, but dragging others into it makes them complicit in the killing, and it is killing. The fact that taxpayers are funding this in the name of healthcare is cynical on the level of “Arbeit macht frei”. DNR’s are fine. The decision to take treatment and medical support is at the discretion of individuals. Not going on life support and actively killing are different acts that are not morally equivalent. Edited February 1 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: You can choose to end your own life, but dragging others into it makes them complicit in the killing, and it is killing. The fact that taxpayers are funding this in the name of healthcare is cynical on the level of “Arbeit macht frei”. DNR’s are fine. The decision to take treatment and medical support is at the discretion of individuals. Not going on life support and actively killing are different acts that are not morally equivalent. Who else is being dragged into it? No one is compelled to assist a death, that is a choice as well. This is an issue purely because of the capabilities and limitations of modern medicine, it has nothing to do with morality. Personally, I hope to just tip over one day or die in my sleep but know the chances of that are not very good. I may well be forced to make the same decision one day and don't know what it might be. I do know that I want it to be my decision and would extend you the same courtesy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroundskeeperWillie Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 28 minutes ago, Aristides said: Well what did you mean? I actually agree with you on this issue mostly. But I guess my biggest misgiving is that doctors are essentially given the authority to decide who is "fit to die". I find this very morally problematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 26 minutes ago, Aristides said: Who else is being dragged into it? No one is compelled to assist a death, that is a choice as well. This is an issue purely because of the capabilities and limitations of modern medicine, it has nothing to do with morality. Personally, I hope to just tip over one day or die in my sleep but know the chances of that are not very good. I may well be forced to make the same decision one day and don't know what it might be. I do know that I want it to be my decision and would extend you the same courtesy. Killing is not healthcare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 4 hours ago, Aristides said: You need to learn the difference between receiving something and having it forced on you. Good luck with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, GroundskeeperWillie said: I actually agree with you on this issue mostly. But I guess my biggest misgiving is that doctors are essentially given the authority to decide who is "fit to die". I find this very morally problematic. Who would you suggest as gate keepers or should there be any at all? On Edit. I’m not trying to be flippant, you raise a valid concern. Should those determining who is qualified for MAID come from the same group who are carrying out the assists and if not, who else is qualified? I don’t know. Edited February 1 by Aristides 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: Killing is not healthcare. I respect your opinion but don’t have to agree with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: Killing is not healthcare. And slogans never solved an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 3 hours ago, GroundskeeperWillie said: Which is just another way of saying they are determining who is fit to die. OK. Who else is qualified to do so? Should they be asking their local church? Butcher? Candlestick maker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 10 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: And slogans never solved an issue. What you call a slogan I call a factual statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 15 hours ago, TreeBeard said: I find the ones that don’t usually have the best morals. We don’t “hand out” MAID. People choose it. If you don’t want it, then don’t choose it. My post were referring to people with mental health issues, i'll say it again because for some reason you have a problem reading that part...My post were referring to people with mental health issues...The same people who can not make reasonable decisions on their own accord...the same people the law says can not be criminal responsible for crimes, becasue they are not in the same mind frame as a normal being... So they can choose it all they want, their decisions don't mean crap in the eyes of the law... Now if we are going to open up MAID to these people the ones who can not be trusted to think for themselves....Why do we have an issue with putting down people who murder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: What you call a slogan I call a factual statement. Clearly it isn’t factual at all as hospitals and doctors all over the world end people’s lives. Even you would end a life by pulling the plug on life support if there was no chance of recovery. So, yes…. Killing is clearly healthcare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, Army Guy said: Why do we have an issue with putting down people who murder... Is it really that difficult to grasp the difference? One is a right. The other is a violation of rights. Despite your bogeyman hypothetical scenarios, it’s an individual right under our Charter. It goes against our Charter for the state to kill prisoners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 (edited) 4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Clearly it isn’t factual at all as hospitals and doctors all over the world end people’s lives. Even you would end a life by pulling the plug on life support if there was no chance of recovery. So, yes…. Killing is clearly healthcare. They’re ethically different acts. Killing isn’t healthcare. A person not surviving without healthcare isn’t the same thing as poisoning or some other form of killing. This is basic Hippocratic Oath. Edited February 1 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: They’re ethically different acts. They are both killing. Your slogan failed. Find a new slogan. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 Just now, TreeBeard said: They are both killing. Your slogan failed. Find a new slogan. You’re wrong. This is medical ethics 101. Dying naturally isn’t being killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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