Should Hamas support rallies in Canada be stopped?

[ExFlyer]

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

How about korea then? Gulf war? Afghanistan? lots of civvies died there. 

Fact is that there is no such thing as a 'war' where civillians don't get killed. Never has been never likely will be. Modern tech helps us minimize that but it's the way it is. That's why war is bad.

Pretending that some how wars in 2020 are different than wars in 1920 in that regard is childish.  If you go to war this is what happens. Which is why most sane countries avoid war. Guess Gaza didnt' get the memo.

I guess you agree with me? I said a while ago that civilians will perish in any war. Millions died in WWII during the bombings and blitzkrieg. In Korea and in Viet Nam too but, none of that has relevance today.

All past history.  No bearing or meaning today.

Each new conflict is on it's own terms.

Edited October 22, 2023 by ExFlyer

[CITIZEN_2015]

15 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Palestinian people are Hamas...

 

 

This was a very bad start of your post so I didn't read the rest of your post.

Say saying this. With the same token, Israeli government is the same as Israeli citizens. So it was legitimate and must be equally fully accepted (to you and these kinds of mindsets) for Hamas to kill 1400 Israeli civilians. So what is your problem. If you support killing of Palestinian civilians also support the killing of Israeli civilians. This war started in 1947,

Edited October 22, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[CdnFox]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Maybe we should have if we knew we'd soon be welcoming Nazi refugees and turning Jews away following the war.

That's your liberal party - our mistake was not shipping all of them to germany too  

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I guess you agree with me? I said a while ago that civilians will perish in any war.

Sure, i agree with that entirely

Quote

Millions died in WWII during the bombings and blitzkrieg. In Korea and in Viet Nam too but, none of that has relevance today.

All of it is relevant today. 100 percent. It's entirely part of what war is today. We avoid killing civvies if we can but if it means winning the war we do it - have in the world wars and every single war since.

Quote

All past history.  No bearing or meaning today.

Nope - it is entirely relevant today.  History doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Quote

Each new conflict is on it's own terms.

Not even remotely true. The reality of physics doesn't change between wars and neither does the 'rules' of how you fight and win one. That's why military people today sill read the nine rings and tsu's art of war.

Every war prior to now we've discovered you can't win without killing civvies.  Which entirely justifies at this point killing civvies if you want to win.  We've learned to keep that to a minimum but that's about it.

Sorry - that's just the way war works. War is bad.

[blackbird]

39 minutes ago, eyeball said:

FIFY

No deliberately misquoted me.  I never said what you claim I said. I never said the Palestinian protesters in the street needed to be negotiated with.  I said there are thousands of Palestinians on the street that are creating anarchy.  

Edited October 22, 2023 by blackbird

[eyeball]

12 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

.... such as never having peace with Israel, this hate is taught in their schools, and is transferred to the Israelis side via terrorism, were Israelis children learn to hate as well...

I recall when I had a number of Israelis on the boat one day, we were looking at a big rock covered with several hundred sealions. I asked what sort of wild animals they had in Israel and one wag promptly answered, 'Gazans'.  His companions all burst into laughter. The rest of my passengers sort of fell into an uncomfortable silence.

Its freaking obvious to me why the ugliness of this conflict and colonization is dawning on more people.  I'd like to see Canadian First Nations get involved in guiding negotiations between Israel and its First Nations peoples.

Did you know the Israeli system of apartheid is loosely modeled after Canada's reserve system? Israelis even regard  themselves as settlers.    

[blackbird]

An Israel citizen hostage being taken to Gaza by Hamas:

Barbara Kay: The insidious hatred that spawned the Holocaust and Hamas' latest pogrom (msn.com)

[ExFlyer]

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Sure, i agree with that entirely

All of it is relevant today. 100 percent. It's entirely part of what war is today. We avoid killing civvies if we can but if it means winning the war we do it - have in the world wars and every single war since.

Nope - it is entirely relevant today.  History doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Not even remotely true. The reality of physics doesn't change between wars and neither does the 'rules' of how you fight and win one. That's why military people today sill read the nine rings and tsu's art of war.

Every war prior to now we've discovered you can't win without killing civvies.  Which entirely justifies at this point killing civvies if you want to win.  We've learned to keep that to a minimum but that's about it.

Sorry - that's just the way war works. War is bad.

How far back do you want to go with your war comparison??

WWI? Boer War? 1812? Seven Years War?  Tribal wars in Africa or amongst the indigenous?

Point is each and every war has its own terms and conditions and causes and deaths and the comparisons are irrelevant unless you are trying to make some philosophical point (?) such as "War is Bad". Then yes, it has relevance.

1500 versus 5000? And more will be killed if 199 hostages are not freed??

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

That's your liberal party - our mistake was not shipping all of them to germany too  

Was there any resistance to allowing Nazi refugees and turning away of Jewish refugees from Conservatives? Any contrary motions from them in Parliament? Was there no outrage?

[blackbird]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'd like to see Canadian First Nations get involved in guiding negotiations between Israel and its First Nations peoples.

Comparing Canada's FN people to Hamas and its supporters shows a lot of ignorance.

We don't see FN people as terrorists attacking non-native civilians or taking people hostage.  They don't believe non-native need to be killed off.

What kind of a brain do you have?   Hamas and Palestinians have absolutely nothing in common with Canada's FN people.

Edited October 22, 2023 by blackbird

[Army Guy]

18 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Not all Palestinians are Hamas

44% voted Hamas.

It is like saying all Canadians are Liberal even though only 33% voted for liberals.

War is war and unfortunately there is civilian deaths. News have reported up to 1300 Israeli deaths and 5000 Palestinian deaths,

Fair enough not all Palestinians voted for  Hamas... But Hamas was elected by Palestinians, and the Hamas government sanctioned those terrorist attacks, Hamas is the face of Palestine just as the liberals are the face of Canada at the moment. 

Regardless of whom voted for whom, the State is at war and everyone within that state is under threat, including women and children...like all wars in the past and in the future...Not sure why we are keeping score, on the amount of deaths...there is not a quota put in place, nor once they reach a certain point is Israel going to stop...unless we are talking about the death of Hamas as a group. and once that happens another terrorist group will move in to take it's place....

 

[eyeball]

22 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That's your liberal party

No this has always been amongst good reasons to not support Liberals. So where was the courage of outraged Conservative conviction in 1939 when the MS St. Louis loaded with Jewish refugees was turned away?  Where was it when Nazi refugees were encouraged to come to Canada following the war and Holocaust?

Crickets?

Edited October 22, 2023 by eyeball

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

We don't see FN people as terrorists attacking non-native civilians or taking people hostage.  They don't believe non-native need to be killed off.

That's because Canadians have more brains than Israel - we've learned negotiating is a better course.

 

[blackbird]

5 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

unless we are talking about the death of Hamas as a group. and once that happens another terrorist group will move in to take it's place....

Israel has said it is going to destroy Hamas.  Whether it can or not I don't know.  Israel cannot be secure if a terrorist group is allowed to continue to govern Gaza.  That much is clear.  It simply won't bring any security for Israel.  The other problem is Hezbollah in Lebanon, backed by Iran.  It is really Iran supporting and encouraging them to fight Israel.  I am not sure how that can solved.  There doesn't seem to be any way that Hezbollah or Iran will give up trying to destroy Israel.

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

That's because Canadians have more brains than Israel - we've learned negotiating is a better course.

 

Again you demonstrate your total ignorance.  Tell me how you would negotiate with terrorist groups whose only interest is in destroying you and your country?

[ExFlyer]

13 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Fair enough not all Palestinians voted for  Hamas... But Hamas was elected by Palestinians, and the Hamas government sanctioned those terrorist attacks, Hamas is the face of Palestine just as the liberals are the face of Canada at the moment. 

Regardless of whom voted for whom, the State is at war and everyone within that state is under threat, including women and children...like all wars in the past and in the future...Not sure why we are keeping score, on the amount of deaths...there is not a quota put in place, nor once they reach a certain point is Israel going to stop...unless we are talking about the death of Hamas as a group. and once that happens another terrorist group will move in to take it's place....

 

I get what you are saying. The government. dictates what the country does but, factions do not mean all the people agree or even want that. I say radicals within Hamas are the problem, not the people of Palestine.

Keeping score and making comparison with wars past seems to be pleasurable to some in this forum.

Death of the group as Hezbollah? Or Isis or al-Qaeda?  Seems the more we try to obliterate them, the stronger they get.

Interesting to me is that the majority of terrorist groups are all Islamic based.

We had a group, we called them separatists, and they still exist today and are planning to split Canada. We have 7 million there and less than 40% agreed with the plan but were voted in anyway. They did take hostages and even killed one person.

Edited October 22, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Army Guy]

28 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

This was a very bad start of your post so I didn't read the rest of your post.

Say saying this. With the same token, Israeli government is the same as Israeli citizens. So it was legitimate and must be equally fully accepted (to you and these kinds of mindsets) for Hamas to kill 1400 Israeli civilians. So what is your problem. If you support killing of Palestinian civilians also support the killing of Israeli civilians. This war started in 1947,

I have since corrected my post, not all Palestinians voted for Hamas, but the fact remains that Hamas is the face of Palestine, they are the government in charge , and they sanctioned these terrorist attacks...now the state of Palestine is at war with Israel it is the entire state that will face the consequences of war...that includes every man women and child....

For the record i don't support any killing , except terrorist, but that is not possible in war, civilians are always paying the highest cost during any conflict...so we should not be surprised when they pay the highest in this conflict unless they some how changed the rules... nope still the same...it has been this way since the beginning of time, this is how war is conducted and yet you and many others are surprised or shocked at the amount of civilians killed... 

I know when the war started, my father did several peacekeeping mission there, i have done a few, i know the history...i also know war brings nothing but death and destruction...but this is how we solve our problems with violence...until we find another way, you should get to know what war brings, and get used to it...as it seems we are to stupid to find another way to solve our problems.

[Nexii]

17 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Comparing Canada's FN people to Hamas and its supporters shows a lot of ignorance.

We don't see FN people as terrorists attacking non-native civilians or taking people hostage.  They don't believe non-native need to be killed off.

What kind of a brain do you have?   Hamas and Palestinians have absolutely nothing in common with Canada's FN people.

The difference is they get to vote. Palestinians don't get to vote in Israeli elections. That in turn leaves violence as the only way to effect change. 

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I say radicals within Hamas are the problem, not the people of Palestine.

Hamas is the government of Gaza for now.

Hezbollah is the majority of the government of Lebanon and is backed and supported in every way by the terrorist government of Iran.

None of them are interested in negotiations or peace and they run the Palestinian areas of Lebanon and Gaza.  Many thousands of Palestinians demonstrating and creating anarchy in the West Bank also support them as do many in surrounding Arab countries.

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Again you demonstrate your total ignorance.  Tell me how you would negotiate with terrorist groups whose only interest is in destroying you and your country?

I wouldn't negotiate with them. I'd go to ground with like minded allies and find willing moderate voices on both sides and foster a dialog between them.

I'd do what I think Jesus would do, which is probably the opposite of what you believe he'd do.

[eyeball]

@Exflyer

What's got you confused?

11 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I say radicals within Hamas are the problem, not the people of Palestine.

Bingo.

[Army Guy]

5 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I get what you are saying. The government. dictates what the country does but, factions do not mean all the people agree or even want that. I say radicals within Hamas are the problem, not the people of Palestine.

Keeping score and making comparison with wars past seems to be pleasurable to some in this forum.

Death of the group as Hezbollah? Or Isis or al-Qaeda?  Seems the more we try to obliterate them, the stronger they get.

Interesting to me is that the majority of terrorist groups are all Islamic based.

Well there are ways to change that demand the government stand down...hold another election, which is not likely...

Force the government to stand down, via force...I'm pretty sure the Israelis government would even assist in something like that...

Or let things remain the way the are now and face what is coming from Israel and hope for the best, I'm pretty sure this is the option they chose...

Most but not all, still plenty of terrorist groups out there that are Christian based, look at the FLQ, Europe is got dozens of groups from the left and the right all white Christians groups...Maybe the most successful ones are Islamic based...or should i say most active ones...

[WestCanMan]

47 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

This was a very bad start of your post so I didn't read the rest of your post.

Buddy, you're Hamas. 

They can never do any wrong in your eyes. 

Just admit that if the Israelis are wiped out in a genocide, you'll be fine with it. 

[Army Guy]

7 minutes ago, Nexii said:

The difference is they get to vote. Palestinians don't get to vote in Israeli elections. That in turn leaves violence as the only way to effect change. 

Palestinians have already declared they don't want a 2 state agreement.... They do get to vote in their own elections, and perhaps instead of voting in a terrorist group one could vote in a government willing to compromise with the Israelis...work toward peace.

Violence never leads to peace, it leads to more violence....

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, Nexii said:

The difference is they get to vote. Palestinians don't get to vote in Israeli elections. That in turn leaves violence as the only way to effect change. 

The thing you don't seem to understand is the Palestinians, who are primarily Muslim, do not believe Israel has the right to exist.  There are millions of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza.  If they were to be given the right to vote, what do you think would happen to Israel?  Before people can have the right to vote in a country like Israel, they must be known to believe that Israel has a right to exist.  The security of Israel comes before anything else.   

As a Canadian citizen you should understand that.  It is simple logic.  The right to vote carries with it responsibility and allegiance to the country.  If people are opposed to the country, they cannot possibly be given the power to govern it.

[suds]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

I think it's more a case of stripping away the pretense that Israel has the right to defend itself when its really the right to continue colonizing, occupying and dispossessing Palestinians of their rights, land and legitimate grievances that's being granted.

The world is only becoming more woke to colonialism not less.  You guys and Israel have been on the wrong side of history since 1948.

'decolonization'..... the undoing of colonialism. the cultural, psychological, and economic freedom, for indigenous people with the goal of achieving indigenous sovereignty.

'indigenous'..... being a member of the original inhabitants of a particular place. Or sharing common ancestry with the original occupants of these lands.

Question.... Is it not true that Jews and Palestinians share a common genetic ancestry in these lands? Is it not true that Judaism's holiest sites are in Palestine and far out date Islam? Is it not true that Jews far outnumbered Arabs specifically in the city of Jerusalem in the late 1800's during Ottoman rule and decades before the British took over? So how is it possible that Jews are not considered indigenous to the state of Israel but are considered 'colonizers'?