The basis for many of our societal problems is absent fathers

[I am Groot]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:30 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I wonder if maybe they were under some special type of constraint? Maybe up until 1865 or so? ?

Some special kind of constraint that still managed to keep families together right up until a hundred years later when they began to break down? Some special constraint that had single-parent black families at about 23% in 1960 but 67% today?

It's not slavery, despite the way you liberals have practically fetishized it. 

[I am Groot]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:15 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, but the Jewish people are still not over their slavery either.

Ok for you to dismiss all that I guess...

Jewish families largely stay together. Jews are among the most economically successful and most educated people in almost every country in the world. In fact, if you removed the crazy Jews (Haredim, Hassidic) from the equation Jews are probably the top performers overall.

[I am Groot]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:55 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Deflecting? Do you think I'm a black Jewish person?

I'm a straight white male who believes that criticism begins at home. As such, I believe that we are always very adept at blaming other groups before we look at ourselves.

There was a study done last year that showed white liberals as the only group who preferred other races to themselves. So yes, they're much more interested in self-criticism while embracing other races and groups and not caring about those groups faults and failings. Even making excuses for them.

So when Blacks commit disproportionate crime it's not their fault, it's white people's fault.

[I am Groot]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:17 PM, ExFlyer said:

And Michael, the title of the thread is "The basis for many of our societal problems is absent fathers" not slavery nor jewish insecurity.

It's the white knight in him. He sees this topic as casting some blame on black and indigenous people. As a liberal, he can't resist rushing to their rescue and bravely putting himself into the line of fire to 'protect' them from aspersions on their reputation or character. 

[I am Groot]

18 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It’s more obvious than ever that many women don’t like living with men and now they have a choice. Beyond all the fuzzy romantic stuff, what really matters in a prospective male partner is how much time and money he will commit to a family in the future. If he hasn’t got a steady job with clear prospects, is he really worth putting up with? There’s an extensive literature on how the status of chronically unemployed married men falls within the family unit. As female income rises, the proportion of men who make a lot more than women declines. I’m afraid the percentage of bachelors considered eligible by this criterion will continue to shrink.

While there is some truth in that it wouldn't account for the number of single-parent families in poorer black communities. The men there certainly can't be said to be great bread earners. And while I haven't seen any actual study I'm willing to bet that if you did a poll of men in a prison and men working at Microsoft it would show the former group to be far more successful with women and have more children.

On the other hand, now that I consider the reason, which is likely instinct, that too bears some correlation to your statement about females being 'mercenary' in looking for men. Instinctively, women seek out physically strong, confident (aggressive) men for protection and because they will be better hunters and providers for their offspring. The fact this is not really the case in today's world is irrelevant to instincts that evolved over so many hundreds of thousands of years.

[blackbird]

I don't think it is reasonable to blame all the ills of society on one particular group.   Everyone is a fallen sinner and contribute to the misery of society.  It does not appear many are following the Lord or believing in Christ as Lord and Saviour as per the Bible.  All fallen sinners who refuse to believe the gospel are under the control of the Devil and used by him.   All need to be redeemed by faith in Christ.  Romanism is a false religion.  If one is trusting in that system, it is a hopeless effort.   A church, priest, sacraments, confessing to a priest (who doesn't have the power to forgive sins) good works, Mary, purgatory (which doesn't exist) cannot save anyone.  Only Jesus Christ can save a person.  

[ExFlyer]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:30 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I wonder if maybe they were under some special type of constraint? Maybe up until 1865 or so? ?

Michael, I had to revisit your comment. Your insinuation that American blacks had it difficult and are what they are because of slavery.

I recently saw something that puts slavery into perspective and that blacks hanging in to their problems because they were slaves is an excuse. A real interesting history of slavery given by a Black person.

 

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Michael, I had to revisit your comment. Your insinuation that American blacks had it difficult and are what they are because of slavery.

I recently saw something that puts slavery into perspective and that blacks hanging in to their problems because they were slaves is an excuse. A real interesting history of slavery given by a Black person.

Candace is not one to convince on this subject. But Thomas Sowell speaks specifically to using slavery as an excuse for unwed mothers in the black community in this short video.

 

[OftenWrong]

6 hours ago, I am Groot said:

It's not poverty alone. In the US, home to race statistics, blacks are roughly the same income as Hispanics, but they commit much more crime, especially violent crime. However, while their incomes are similar, Hispanic FAMILIES have quite a bit more wealth than Black families, though. Why? Because Black families are more likely to be single-income families (67% vs 42%).

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43

My impression of hispanics is that they believe in family values and to be a good christian.

[ExFlyer]

15 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

My impression of hispanics is that they believe in family values and to be a good christian.

Yup, if your family is the Sinaloa Cartel or Latin Kings or MS-13 or Los Zetas or ......   LOL

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Yup, if your family is the Sinaloa Cartel or Latin Kings or MS-13 or Los Zetas or ......   LOL

Talking about ordinary people, not infamous villains.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Talking about ordinary people, not infamous villains.

Which one is an "infamous villain"? The Sinaola Cartel alone has 45,000 members, mostly Latino.

[OftenWrong]

15 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Which one is an "infamous villain"? The Sinaola Cartel alone has 45,000 members, mostly Latino.

Yeah good for you to bring that up. I was talking about families.

[CdnFox]

Speaking on behalf of infamous villains everywhere,  we're sick of you guys saying everything is our  fault and would rather you didn't try to pin this on us.

[I am Groot]

28 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Which one is an "infamous villain"? The Sinaola Cartel alone has 45,000 members, mostly Latino.

In the US, they don't seem to commit as much violence. Although it's not always easy to tell because the FBI has only in recent years started breaking out Hispanic as a separate race from White. And I don't see race crime stats past 2019 from the FBI. But as one comparison, Hispanics make up 29% of the population of New York city and 30.5% of arrests for murder and non-negligent manslaughter. Blacks make up 23% of the population but 64% of arrests for Murder/non-negligent manslaughter. 

By comparison, Whites make up about 40% of the population and just under 3% of arrests for murder and non-negligent manslaughter.

Shootings, those where someone is actually hit anyway, are even more lopsided. Whites commit 1.1%, Hispanics 26.3% and Blacks a whopping 71.2%

https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2022-enforcement-report.pdf

Edited October 9, 2023 by I am Groot

[SpankyMcFarland]

11 hours ago, I am Groot said:

While there is some truth in that it wouldn't account for the number of single-parent families in poorer black communities. The men there certainly can't be said to be great bread earners. And while I haven't seen any actual study I'm willing to bet that if you did a poll of men in a prison and men working at Microsoft it would show the former group to be far more successful with women and have more children.

On the other hand, now that I consider the reason, which is likely instinct, that too bears some correlation to your statement about females being 'mercenary' in looking for men. Instinctively, women seek out physically strong, confident (aggressive) men for protection and because they will be better hunters and providers for their offspring. The fact this is not really the case in today's world is irrelevant to instincts that evolved over so many hundreds of thousands of years.

I guess my point is that the issue of absent fathers involves two adult actors rather than one. I’m not disputing what Charles Murray and Co. have said about contemporary male fecklessness but that’s not the whole story. If a man doesn’t bring a big surplus to the family table, his long-term position in that household will be uncertain. Something I didn’t take on board until quite late in life, thankfully not from personal experience: women often draw a clear distinction between fatherhood and cohabitation these days. They are still attracted to the hunter-type for sexual encounters but when considering a live-in partner a lot of calculation, much of it unconscious, is involved to figure out who is really worth the trouble. A guy may think he is leaving entirely of his own accord and may not see for quite a while afterwards (or ever) that there wasn’t exactly much protest or grief about his departure. While men often see themselves as the CEOs of a family, women own the company. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[ExFlyer]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yeah good for you to bring that up. I was talking about families.

They all consider themselves "family" and will do whatever for their family.

My point was  when you say "hispanics is that they believe in family values and to be a good christian. ", they are no more "family and christian" than any other ethnic sector of American society.

[ExFlyer]

20 hours ago, blackbird said:

I don't think it is reasonable to blame all the ills of society on one particular group.  .....Blah Blah Blah

No one ever said "it is reasonable to blame all the ills of society on one particular group".......That is your religious mind BS overtaking what is actually being discussed.

[impartialobserver]

its a bit of a chicken vs. egg dilemma.. did the poverty create the absent father problem or did the absent father issue create the poverty. In my case.. we grew up quite poor and my dad was always there. The issue was that both my parents worked low paying jobs and they had 5 kids (9 years apart from oldest to youngest). Dad was an old cowboy from Eastern Idaho who did 3 tours in Vietnam. Upon returning.. went into drywall and stucco and like a lot of men during that time.. seriously hurt his back. He had back surgery and that greatly diminished his working opportunities. Finally, he and my mother were heavy duty smokers. No alcohol consumption of any kind ever but 2.5 to 3 packs a day is expensive even if it was the 80's. 

[OftenWrong]

9 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

they are no more "family and christian" than any other ethnic sector of American society.

 

Or maybe you don't read so good.

On 10/9/2023 at 10:26 AM, I am Groot said:

In the US, home to race statistics, blacks are roughly the same income as Hispanics, but they commit much more crime, especially violent crime. However, while their incomes are similar, Hispanic FAMILIES have quite a bit more wealth than Black families, though. Why? Because Black families are more likely to be single-income families (67% vs 42%).

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43

A post to which you gave "ups", yet don't seem to acknowledge now.

As to religion, a quick check confirms I am right again. (Surprise surprise!) For blacks it's the older generation that went to church, not the younger ones.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/how-black-pastors-under-40-are-trying-get-their-peers-n1270276

"The Rev. Carlyle F. Stewart IV, 26, an associate pastor focused on youth and community outreach, however, says he sees the writing on the wall: His Black peers are abandoning traditional faith communities because they’re not finding solace in churches or meaning in religion in the same way their parents and grandparents have."

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 10/9/2023 at 12:13 PM, I am Groot said:

While there is some truth in that it wouldn't account for the number of single-parent families in poorer black communities. The men there certainly can't be said to be great bread earners. And while I haven't seen any actual study I'm willing to bet that if you did a poll of men in a prison and men working at Microsoft it would show the former group to be far more successful with women and have more children.

I think it does account for that. Poor men don’t earn significantly more than their partners. Therefore they are not bringing enough benefit to the household to be worth putting up with. Also you’re conflating fathering children and living together. Women tend to draw a clear distinction between those activities. Unless compelling reasons are offered, they’ve enough people to mind at home already. 

[August1991]

On 10/4/2023 at 9:22 AM, I am Groot said:

I'm a fan of Thomas Sowell. He makes the case that since the number of black single-parent families exploded during the more enlightened time of the 1960s and 1970s (as opposed to earlier), that the cause is more closely related to the liberal welfare state than poverty. In the 1950s, a single girl who got pregnant faced a disaster.

....

I too like Thomas Sowell.

====

I happen to know many kids - thinking in the past - who grew up in single-mother families, and the kids turned out fine.

Correlation is not causation. 

[August1991]

On 10/8/2023 at 4:19 PM, blackbird said:

The title of the article says "The basis for many of our societal problems is absent fathers".    While this may be true in a certain sense, I believe it is an oversimplification of the situation...

....

blackbird, I agree.

I am not Jewish. But many successful Jewish people grew up in the 1950s - despite the loss of a father - or mother. They were raised by someone else (adopted), or by an aunt or uncle.  

Edited October 13, 2023 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

24 minutes ago, August1991 said:

blackbird, I agree.

I am not Jewish. But many successful Jewish people grew up in the 1950s - despite the loss of a father - or mother. They were raised by someone else (adopted), or by an aunt or uncle.  

Their slavery was 3,000 years ago.

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Their slavery was 3,000 years ago.

You are obsessed with American culture war garbage.