The end of Canadian dream

[TreeBeard]

2 hours ago, myata said:

in a supposedly marine nation you buy your fish at the next to the highest price in the world?

 It’s why we pay market price for nearly every commodity.  Free market economics is the reason.   Why would a fisherman sell to you for $5/lb when they can get $20/lb when they ship it offshore?  

Should the fisherman act as a charity so you can get cheap fish?    They want to maximize profits so they can feed, house and clothe their families too.  

[myata]

39 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

It’s why we pay market price for nearly every commodity.  

A great invention, sure! Keeps Joe happy forever in the best country. In Portugal I buy a pastry from a supermarket for about 60c (locally produced) or under $1 in a local bakery (freshly baked) but it has to go for the "market price" of $5 in the Great Canadian Supermarket courtesy of the distribution gurus with megamillion bonus. Great stuff Joe! Keep smiling and you'll get more of the great stuff... why wouldn't you?

[TreeBeard]

30 minutes ago, myata said:

A great invention, sure! Keeps Joe happy forever in the best country. In Portugal I buy a pastry from a supermarket for about 60c (locally produced) or under $1 in a local bakery (freshly baked) but it has to go for the "market price" of $5 in the Great Canadian Supermarket courtesy of the distribution gurus with megamillion bonus. Great stuff Joe! Keep smiling and you'll get more of the great stuff... why wouldn't you?

Portugal has a lower costs due to lower standards of living.  I’m sure you can get cheap bread in Lesotho too.  But the comparison isn’t valid.  
 

Why not compare Britain or Germany to Canada?  

[myata]

55 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

due to lower standards of living

Really? Paying a half for the rent, a fraction for food not to mention 300 days of sun in a year how do you know that you have it, "the higher standard"? When working young families are struggling to pay rent and need to visit food bank regularly. From your favorite red picture book, lemme guess?

[TreeBeard]

36 minutes ago, myata said:

Really? Paying a half for the rent, a fraction for food not to mention 300 days of sun in a year how do you know that you have it, "the higher standard"? When working young families are struggling to pay rent and need to visit food bank regularly. From your favorite red picture book, lemme guess?

They make less money in Portugal.   So, despite the increased cost of living here, we make a lot more money on average. 
 

Quote

The average after-tax salary is enough to cover living expenses for 1.7 months in Canada compared to 1 months in Portugal. 
https://livingcost.org/cost/canada/portugal

So, while you may find it more affordable in Portugal, that’s because you have a higher living standard coming from Canada.  
 

If you insist on apples to oranges, your Canadian standard of living will make Thailand look like a bargain compared to Portugal.  

[myata]

19 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

They make less money in Portugal.   So, despite the increased cost of living here, we make a lot more money on average. 

Let's see. Many many jobs in Canada these days are low paying service ones in the range of $20 and that's good ones (minimum $15). That comes to around 3K monthly minus taxes of all kinds, and I don't mean just income, excise, HST, property, school, can't step here without paying some tax. And by far not all are full time and assured. Are all those really better off, have "higher living standard"?

So who comes on top? PS, till the next budget crunch that is when not if? Who else, Loblaws CEOs? What sectors? What proportion of the population?

The average salary in Portugal is around €1,269 per month. The salary number in your link is obviously wrong, it's less than a thousand Euros. The rest of the numbers make sense. Single trip transit ticket costs 1.60 Euro in Lisbon, Ottawa $3.70.

Some wise thinking here goes, if you jack up prices make them double or more it should somehow raise the living standard. Makes sense, right? Seriously.

[TreeBeard]

7 minutes ago, myata said:

So who comes on top?

It doesn’t matter that you THINK Canadians don’t make as much as they actually do.  What matters is data.  And the data shows that Canadians, generally, make more in salary than the Portuguese and have more income vs monthly expenses.  

In every measure, Canadians are richer than the Portuguese.  
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/canada/portugal

If sunshine is equivalent to a standard of living, then Portugal wins.  

[myata]

25 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

What matters is data.

In the rosy picture book? Add CEO salary with bonuses to average family and get a great number?

You sure understand that in this new Canadian "prosperity" reality an average two service income family cannot raise children? That in the stupidest cycle you cannot pay your own people to have kids so have to bring them from all kind of unstable places at further outrageous cost and with minimal effect? In what kind of bizarre world would it make sense? That careening race will have a break point?

In Ontario these days can only get a PS job through a lottery. You understand that when PS budget collapses it can be a poor country in no time at all, and no creative juggling with "GDP" would do anything to hide it?

Edited July 5, 2023 by myata

[Moonbox]

12 minutes ago, myata said:

In the rosy picture book? Add CEO salary with bonuses to average family and get a great number?

Doesn't matter.  The median income per capita (which corrects for those sorts of skews) is still way, way higher than Portugal.  Portugal is one of the poorest countries in Europe.  Your "feels" about the comparison couldn't be less relevant.  

 

[myata]

6 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Doesn't matter. 

Indeed. All what was said stands true. Canada no longer has the economic basis for a broad prosperity. And creative number juggling won't change that. The sector providing stable, sufficient income jobs is shrinking. In the economy of dominant low-paying temporary jobs, following a collapse of public budgets Canada will become Mexico North not only in politics but in the social reality. Resource industry alone wouldn't be able to prevent that and no one seems to be awake to see and understand that.

[Moonbox]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

Indeed. All what was said stands true. Canada no longer has the economic basis for a broad prosperity. And creative number juggling won't change that.

The "creative number-juggling" is reality.  It's what prevents no-nothings from ranting cluelessly about things and providing nothing but vague testimonials and worthless, unvalidated opinions.  

2 minutes ago, myata said:

The sector providing stable, sufficient income jobs is shrinking. In the economy of dominant low-paying temporary jobs, following a collapse of public budgets Canada will become Mexico North not only in politics but in the social reality. Resource industry alone wouldn't be able to prevent that and no one seems to be awake to see and understand that.

Canada has problems.  Some of what you say is actually true.  A lot of it is ill-informed balogna.  Say whatever you want about the problems facing the Canadian economy and job market, but don't compare Portugal and Romania favorably against us.  That's dumb.  

[myata]

8 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The "creative number-juggling" is reality. 

Not all of it and quite possibly, not a correct reflection of it. You can have an economy where bread costs $10 and one where it costs less than $1. In no way it means that the former has x10 living standard of the latter and quite possibly, the opposite.

10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

but don't compare Portugal and Romania favorably against us.

You still have to prove it. And GDP abstract number is in no way any proof. If a minimum pay temporary service or construction, shop, McDonalds job is a hallmark of the future here, we will have to compare the living standard by the factual reality, not some assumed rating. Only two large employment sectors can provide stable good paying jobs now: PS and resource industry. And neither can be a strong foundation for the long term and broad prosperity.

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, myata said:

You still have to prove it.

First, you made the claim.  It’s not on anyone else to prove anything.  Although, actual data was used to disprove your claim.    Second, we use actual data.  You have feelings.  You FEEL Portugal is a cheaper place to live and has a better standard of living than Canada. 
 

Other than feelings, what empirical and objective data are you using?

[cougar]

6 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

 It’s why we pay market price for nearly every commodity.  Free market economics is the reason.   Why would a fisherman sell to you for $5/lb when they can get $20/lb when they ship it offshore?  

Should the fisherman act as a charity so you can get cheap fish?    They want to maximize profits so they can feed, house and clothe their families too.  

It doesn't work quite like this.    If they sold fish at $5/lb and same happened across the board with all domestically produced commodities, the value of our dollar was going to increase and so would the standard of life.

When you start selling at the highest possible price, things slide the opposite way for everyone.

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

It doesn't work quite like this.    If they sold fish at $5/lb and same happened across the board with all domestically produced commodities, the value of our dollar was going to increase and so would the standard of life.

When you start selling at the highest possible price, things slide the opposite way for everyone.

LOL

If we kept our commodities only for domestic sale for a fraction of the world market prices, we’d be Venezuela-North!!

[Moonbox]

5 hours ago, myata said:

Not all of it and quite possibly, not a correct reflection of it. You can have an economy where bread costs $10 and one where it costs less than $1. In no way it means that the former has x10 living standard of the latter and quite possibly, the opposite.

Sure, but then in the country where bread costs 1/10th, it's generally because their disposable per capita income is proportionally lower with it.  When you go visit, it feels great, because that $1 loaf is cheap AF relative to your income.  For the average Portuguese making $10/hour, it doesn't feel that cheap.  

5 hours ago, myata said:

You still have to prove it. And GDP abstract number is in no way any proof.

GDP's not an abstract number, goof.  Your vague testimonials are.  

[myata]

12 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Although, actual data was used to disprove your claim.

You mean a link to nowhere? Not a substitute of an intelligent argument and not an established fact by far.

[myata]

8 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Sure, but then in the country where bread costs 1/10th, it's generally because their disposable per capita income is proportionally lower with it. 

Really? Not because you have cheap ingredients, great know how and ten independent bakeries within walking distance to compete with (as opposed to another supermarket owned by the same great CEO family miles away)? And loyal customers because of reasonably priced great product.

[I am Groot]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:55 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

It’s still a great country with genuine wilderness, unlike Western Europe. I’m constantly thankful I chose here rather than the US. When I was driving to the ferry in North Sydney with a few hours to spare, I took a detour to see some more of the province and a guy flagged me down to tell me I was going the wrong way. That kind of thing is what I would miss. 

There are lots of gorgeous places in China and Russia and Nigeria too.  Probably even in North Korea. That doesn't mean they're great countries.

[I am Groot]

On 7/2/2023 at 4:42 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

You misunderstand what I meant. You seem to be unhappy living here. If there is some place that would make you feel better, you may want to consider re-locating

Unless you think he has dual citizenship that's a pointless suggestion. 

How many Canadians would move to the US tomorrow if they could? Or to France or Australia?

[I am Groot]

On 7/2/2023 at 5:27 PM, Contrarian said:

The Canadian dream is a big word, however, if your brain is on productivity and self-interest, this land does not stand in your way, compared to other countries and systems that are patrolling around. 

I read a piece the other day from a guy who had wanted to start up a farmer's market, not so much to make money but just because he was enthusiastic about the idea and thought a lot of people would like it. Well, once he looked into the forms and permits and hefty fees he'd have to pay to various levels of government there was just no way it was doable.

On 7/2/2023 at 5:27 PM, Contrarian said:

Why don't you name the top place that you think exists on this planet that is the perfect society? so I can find some flaws there? You know there is a saying, the other side looks so much greener until you get there. 

Thomas Sowell said something once which resonated with me. The Left thinks they can find the perfect solution. But there are no perfect solutions. There are only compromises. Everything has a downside.

Canada is not a bad place to live compared to most of the world. That doesn't mean I don't look at places like Australia, or for that matter, the Nordic countries and see more effective, efficient government and better organized societies. It doesn't mean I can't watch the 4th of July spectacles down south and envy them their pride in their history and who they are and what they've accomplished. I bet nobody serious down there suggested they not celebrate the 4th of July out of shame and repentance at what they did to Indians back in the day. It doesn't even mean I can't look at some of the infrastructure Asians and Europeans are putting up and be gobsmacked at how much more effort they put into beautifying their public spaces, be it airports, train stations, subways or public squares. 

Meanwhile, Ottawa has been trying to get its multi-billion dollar LRT system functioning properly since it was put in place. The stations are tiny, cheap looking, cold in all senses of the word (unheated) built of plain concrete, glass and steel, and so small they can't handle crowds, with leaking roofs and flooding tracks. Have a look at the metro stations Amsterdam has been building by comparison. Roughly the same populations too. Or have a look at the metro stations in China in their gleaming, spotless, high-tech efficiency. 

A country whose government doesn't consider it to be a nation has no purpose, and certainly no business trying to make its public spaces beautiful.

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Really? Not because you have cheap ingredients, great know how and ten independent bakeries within walking distance to compete with (as opposed to another supermarket owned by the same great CEO family miles away)? And loyal customers because of reasonably priced great product.

Yes, really.  Small-scale bakeries are labor intensive, and most of them go out of business in Canada because you can't get anyone to come in at 5:30am every day and pay them Portuguese wages. 

You have to pay someone 1.5-2x more to even work there, which in turn makes the end product way more expensive.  

There's something to be said about monopolies and over-protected industries (grocers are a good one, but also our banks, telecoms etc), but Portugal is cheap for the Canadians, Americans and Brits who go there for the same reason it's cheap in  other poor countries (like Cuba, Mexico, Dominican etc).  We have way more income and purchasing power than they do.  You wouldn't be signing Portugal's praises if you were living there and earning Portuguese wages.  

[myata]

A sad parody on bread in the supermarket, $2.99. "Artisan" approximation, 8.99. Why stop, like what could be the reason?

All because of the "inflation" and of the market Joe. See, folks around the world are lining up to buy this stale imitation of what is known to people as "bread" for no less than $2.99 and you can count yourself as a fortunate one, as always.

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

We have way more income and purchasing power than they do. 

We do? I worked in many countries, in Western Europe, UK, Eastern Europe and of course Canada. Many have some local peculiarities that I won't be not going into. But is Canada still a high living standard place as it is painted? Do her citizens have a lot of purchasing power? Outside of selected sectors, like high tech, PS does this claim holds? Does $30K service job or $40K construction provide any prosperity at all, beyond basic survival? It's not hard to find out.

For me, and I admit it can be individual perception, it makes all the sense based on the income in the country, to buy a great pastry for $1.50 (equivalent) in Portugal, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Croatia or a genuine Czech beer for $3 (draft, restaurant) or great German beer for $5. A stale sugar infused piece of dough, for the same price? A mediocre beer for $15? Doesn't make any sense in that one case: when you can compare.

I have to agree with someone here, it may not take much to expose the country as a pretentious fake economically as well - only the next massive budget crisis. See it now or experience live a few years or decades down the road. Because no, on this path we've been rolling for a while now, there are no other destinations.

Edited July 6, 2023 by myata

[Moonbox]

18 minutes ago, myata said:

We do? I worked in many countries, in Western Europe, UK, Eastern Europe and of course Canada. Many have some local peculiarities that I won't be not going into. But is Canada still a high living standard place as it is painted? Do her citizens have a lot of purchasing power? Outside of selected sectors, like high tech, PS does this claim holds? Does $30K service job or $40K construction provide any prosperity at all, beyond basic survival? It's not hard to find out.

Canada's living standard has declined against the US and others, but it's still way higher than most, and especially Portugal.  That's 100% certain.  Portugal is poor.  Anything with labour-intensive inputs will be much cheaper here as a result, and then we have our dumb monopolies in telecom/banking/grocers to deal with, but the poor Portuguese people still have to compete on things like energy, housing etc and they have far less disposable income than we do.  It's not even close. 

These numbers aren't "fake".

[SpankyMcFarland]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

There are lots of gorgeous places in China and Russia and Nigeria too.  Probably even in North Korea. That doesn't mean they're great countries.

They’re not great countries. Wandering off the beaten path to explore the unknown wouldn’t be wise in any of them. Three are oppressive police states. The fourth, Nigeria, is a very dodgy place to visit these days. By contrast, in Canada I don’t fear the state or its people. It’s a good feeling.