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On 3/18/2023 at 3:04 AM, August1991 said:

1. Many, many years ago - centuries ago - I was a bureaucrat. A "person" asked me to do something. But the person claimed to be a woman when the person was a man, according to the documents submitted. As a dutiful bureaucrat, I explained that I had to refuse - the person was a man.

2. I realised then that a person is a person.

=====

The vast majority of people are not gay. And most people are right-handed.

Yes, persons are persons but there are two biological sexes, so in some cases, both sexes need to be shown which door is appropriate for them to enter. 

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@August1991 and @Perspektiv you both seem to be talking about different things.

August seems to be arguing that people with differences should be accepted for their differences even if they are in the minority.  Which is true.

Perspektiv seems to argue that regardless of accepting a person's differences or not, it's inappropriate to be dishonest about what the differences are and we should speak truthfully and accurately when we speak.  Which is a pretty fair point and most would agree with the statement in general. Truth is good. 

The two positions ARE somewhat in conflict. What happens when someone's difference that we should accept is that they wish us to speak a lie for their mental health's sake?

So - this is basically a conflict of rights. And that happens all the time, where one persons' rights butts up against another person's. For example, the rights to freedom of sexuality bumps up against freedom of religion.

When that happens traditionally we look to find the solution that causes the LEAST offense to rights - recognizing that there will be some. For example, gays are allowed to marry, but churches are allowed to say 'we recognize your marriage as legal, but you can't get married here'. Gays rights are preserved with minor offense and the church's rights are preserved with minor offense.

In this case, it would seem to be true that if we are being fair to all parties, a trans person should have the right to 'be' trans, should have the right to behave as whatever sex they want and to refer to themselves in whatever fashion they like and to be respected for their decsions. Their mental health should also be respected.

However - we should also respect people's right to their own language and NOT compel them to lie by force of law. It would be WRONG to demand that someone MUST speak a lie if they are going to speak. 

And that is not only true of individuals but society in general.

There is a legal term that is often used when discussing accomodating people's illness and disability in buildings for example - the law in BC says such people must be accomodated TO THE POINT OF HARDSHIP - in otherwords, to the point where it becomes unreasonable or impractical to do so.

It is reasonable to treat trans people as the gender of their choice and allow them that freedom by and large. It is UNREASONABLE to COMPEL someone to refer to them by a gender which is not actually true against their will. And it is UNREASONABLE to accept them as BIOLOGICALLY the sex of their choice where segregation of sex is required or accepted.

Yes some are left handed. Yes, where possible we should make sure both right and left handed people are accomodated. No, people should not be forced to call left handed people right handed if they don't want to.

My thoughts anyway.

 

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1 hour ago, Deluge said:

Yes, persons are persons but there are two biological sexes, so in some cases, both sexes need to be shown which door is appropriate for them to enter. 

You can't reason based on logic with people like this.

If a trans person is allowed to believe they can breastfeed, and it improves their mental health, we should let them. That they have periods. 

What if one thinks she is pregnant. 

At what point does playing into things, become  more harmful than good?

IE her having to do a prostate check to avoid undetected cancer, or if she didn't have bottom surgery, to check her testicles?

Or do you do a pretend "cervical" check, by sticking your vaginal speculum in her butt?

At what point do you cross the line of ridiculous? It seems to be moving every day.

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1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

You can't reason based on logic with people like this.

If a trans person is allowed to believe they can breastfeed, and it improves their mental health, we should let them. That they have periods. 

What if one thinks she is pregnant. 

At what point does playing into things, become  more harmful than good?

IE her having to do a prostate check to avoid undetected cancer, or if she didn't have bottom surgery, to check her testicles?

Or do you do a pretend "cervical" check, by sticking your vaginal speculum in her butt?

At what point do you cross the line of ridiculous? It seems to be moving every day.

I've been reading that this is bigger than just human rights. Apparently there are some very powerful people who want nonbinary humans to be the norm. 

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Just now, Deluge said:

Apparently there are some very powerful people who want nonbinary humans to be the norm. 

Think about it.

You feminize men, you remove any bit of social resistance. If you think China and Russia's ambitions would be thwarted by youth who would be sent into mental health downward spirals by being misgendered, you have lost your mind. Heck, they wouldn't need weapons anymore. 

Its a concerted attempt to eliminate manhood or what it used to stand for, and popularize girlhood. Heck you can even get multi million dollar endorsements for it.

You remove gender, and teach vague gender rules and you create a shame in questioning it, and are essentially eroding a person's ability to question. It becomes a fear. You then simply have to continuously move the goal posts to fully suppress it.

You control one's mind, you control their bodies. 

 

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1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

Think about it.

You feminize men, you remove any bit of social resistance. If you think China and Russia's ambitions would be thwarted by youth who would be sent into mental health downward spirals by being misgendered, you have lost your mind. Heck, they wouldn't need weapons anymore. 

Its a concerted attempt to eliminate manhood or what it used to stand for, and popularize girlhood. Heck you can even get multi million dollar endorsements for it.

You remove gender, and teach vague gender rules and you create a shame in questioning it, and are essentially eroding a person's ability to question. It becomes a fear. You then simply have to continuously move the goal posts to fully suppress it.

You control one's mind, you control their bodies. 

 

It's an epidemic, that's for damn sure. It's why those of who are still normal need to step up and deal with these people directly, and often times even harshly - it's really just a matter of fighting fire with water. 

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13 minutes ago, Deluge said:

It's an epidemic, that's for damn sure. It's why those of who are still normal need to step up and deal with these people directly, and often times even harshly - it's really just a matter of fighting fire with water. 

The crazy part, is am an effeminate man. 5 years ago, I was always jokingly called gay. I love scented candles, colorful dress shirts, love baking and apparently this firmly put me in a closet.

My wife is more masculine than me, but of course is very girly in how she dresses. 

Where my "manness" shows, in that I earn triple her salary, make sure she is well taken care of even though she can stand on her own, and would be willing to give my life to protect her with zero hesitation. I was raised to protect the women and what I love, by all means necessary. I scared off 5 assailants who attacked my sister when we were younger, with a shoe in hand, and chasing after them, wanting to knock them out. My parents were proud of me. Now, I think such behavior would be scolded.

Now, am borderline toxic masculine. 

IE if my wife says something really dumb, I will roast her for it. She does the same to me. We love logic, but me doing so now is bad. Calling out bad logic is bad. 

If I am a threat, scented candles and all, manhood or what we knew it as, is f****ed.

 

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On 3/22/2023 at 9:01 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Not the far left, but people who believe in maximum personal freedom.

When trannies get in your face and demand you call them by the proper pronouns or you'll get arrested, the concept of personal freedom kinda goes out the window.

One side wants the trannies to snap out of it and quit being such unnatural freaks. The other side wants ALL of us to be trannies.

I'm kind of in the middle. I don't want to know what goes on behind closed doors of any freak's personal private residence. And I DON'T want a freak to think he/she/it is  ENTITLED to get in my face with the details.

I have male equipment. I consider myself a man, husband, father and grandfather. And that offends trannies. And they need to know that I don't give a ripe fck about their feelings.

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14 minutes ago, reason10 said:

When trannies get in your face and demand you call them by the proper pronouns or you'll get arrested, the concept of personal freedom kinda goes out the window.

One side wants the trannies to snap out of it and quit being such unnatural freaks. The other side wants ALL of us to be trannies.

I'm kind of in the middle. I don't want to know what goes on behind closed doors of any freak's personal private residence. And I DON'T want a freak to think he/she/it is  ENTITLED to get in my face with the details.

I have male equipment. I consider myself a man, husband, father and grandfather. And that offends trannies. And they need to know that I don't give a ripe fck about their feelings.

Don't do it.  You should no more be arrested for addressing someone by the wrong pronouns than you should be for insulting them in some other manner. 

If you end up getting smacked for either infraction, you can have the perpetrator charged.  You're the one with the stitches, but if it was worth it to you, then it was.

As I said elsewhere, I've never met a trans person, but if I did, my polite nature would undoubtedly win out.  If I mistakenly misgendered them, I would expect politeness in return.

By the way, you are definitely not in the middle.

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27 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

As I said elsewhere, I've never met a trans person, but if I did, my polite nature would undoubtedly win out.  If I mistakenly misgendered them, I would expect politeness in return.

By the way, you are definitely not in the middle.

Great post.  It should not be surprising to any normal person that the world can continue with a small percentage of people wanting to change their gender.

I misgendered one of my dearest trans friends, and they politely corrected me and I said a quick sorry.  That was the end of that.

 

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10 hours ago, August1991 said:

I haven't read through this entire thread. But this post struck me.

''''

Most of us are right-handed. In Canada, most people speak English. But some people are left-handed.

And some of us are bilingual.

And some of us are insane and should be treated that way.

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On 4/8/2023 at 2:56 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I misgendered one of my dearest trans friends, and they politely corrected me and I said a quick sorry.  That was the end of that.

I'd like to believe that the vast majority of people are good, and would not want to go out of their way to deliberately misgender someone.

My ex wife had two close friends who were trans, well before this somehow became a trend, and I would use their proper "she/her" pronouns when talking to them.

I really don't see the big deal in using proper pronouns, for the most part.

However, if someone wrote me an email, and their signature said: "they/them", I unfortunately would automatically be judging them as woke, SJW's who get offended at everything, and would be quick to adapt my behavior, accordingly.

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On 4/8/2023 at 2:06 PM, reason10 said:

they need to know that I don't give a ripe fck about their feelings.

That's the thing. The world couldn't care less how you feel inside. I'm supposed to care now, because your voice is a megaphone?

As a black male, nobody cared about me growing up in a poor neighborhood and witnessing gruesome gang violence. Having to learn how to fight young, or get my stuff taken from me, as would be too afraid to dole out consequences--the only thing people will respect in a violent environment.

Struggling to find work as a teen, as my braids and beard screamed "unemployable".

Shooting in my neighborhood was the way it was. People would say amongst themselves "good riddance", because that's what violent black people do, right?

I misgender a trans person in public, and I could face a level of social scorn, that few recover from.

Its what bothers me. 21 Savage could do a firearm ad with his music videos encouraging black youth to adopt his criminal lifestyle, and they do, can wind up dead or in jail like most who do. This is music. Art.

Again, Dave Chapelle can make a joke on the predicament of being trans. This is bigotry. Violent speech. It must be stopped at all costs O_o

And why should China and Russia be worried about North America or the west's ability to stop their ambitions of a new world order?

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23 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

We're encouraged to do this in business today.  It's just practice.  LIke using "Ms." used to be.

I don't think I've ever used Mrs. or Mr. in an email in my entire career. I'll use the customer's name. I think if you choose to use your pronouns, do you--but for a workplace imposing it, or "encouraging it", meaning my refusal, would make me somehow act in a reprehensible manner. Its policing speech.

Its more practical in my humble opinion, to put out there, the types of behavior that will not be tolerated.

I'm against policing speech, in any way shape or form.

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On 3/23/2023 at 10:11 PM, August1991 said:

Why not continental teams?

I'm a proud Canadian, not proud North American. I don't see anything wrong with competing for your country's colors. Mind you, am incredibly competitive so can understand the allure of doing something for your country.

On 3/23/2023 at 10:11 PM, August1991 said:

Your dance appears better

Or if discussing figure skating, there are more complexities used, less errors, and execution is judged based on that. If I only try a single axle in figure skating, and my competitor skates just as well, and attempted a triple axle, they deserve the higher ranking. I again, don't see the issue.

What you're pointing out, is that you don't like competition.

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8 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. but for a workplace imposing it, or "encouraging it", meaning my refusal, would make me somehow act in a reprehensible manner. Its policing speech.

2. Its more practical in my humble opinion, to put out there, the types of behavior that will not be tolerated.

3. I'm against policing speech, in any way shape or form.

1.  "Encouraging" - which you used rightly in quotes - might actually mean encouraging and not imposing.  It's not imposed.
2.  That is also done.
3.  All behaviour is policed, passively, by all people at all times including you.  The moral sphere exists.

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On 4/8/2023 at 9:50 AM, CdnFox said:

@August1991 and @Perspektiv you both seem to be talking about different things.

....

There is a legal term that is often used when discussing accomodating people's illness and disability in buildings for example - the law in BC says such people must be accomodated TO THE POINT OF HARDSHIP - in otherwords, to the point where it becomes unreasonable or impractical to do so.

It is reasonable to treat trans people as the gender of their choice and allow them that freedom by and large. It is UNREASONABLE to COMPEL someone to refer to them by a gender which is not actually true against their will. And it is UNREASONABLE to accept them as BIOLOGICALLY the sex of their choice where segregation of sex is required or accepted.

Yes some are left handed. Yes, where possible we should make sure both right and left handed people are accomodated. No, people should not be forced to call left handed people right handed if they don't want to.

....

 

"Point of hardship"... 

******

Some people are left-handed.

Should Boeing or Airbus design their airplanes so that anyone can fly their planes?

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6 minutes ago, August1991 said:

"Point of hardship"... 

******

Some people are left-handed.

Should Boeing or Airbus design their airplanes so that anyone can fly their planes?

Anyone can fly their planes.  Left handed pilots fly them all the time. That was a dumb example.

If they COUDLN"T then the question would be 'does redesigning the plane constitute hardship'.  It almost certainly would. It would be a massive undertaking at great price.

There's been a lot of legal cases on this - look them up if you need a better idea of what 'to the point of hardship' means.

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2 minutes ago, August1991 said:

CdnFox,

Years ago, centuries ago, the Americans solved this problem.

A federal state: It has no official cultural. No official religion.

Well two points -  first,  the transgender issues being discussed are not religions issues. Whether you should be compelled to speech by law is not a religious discussion for example.

And the second would be I do note that this issue is causing the US some problems as well. SO i'm not sure they 'solved' it per se.

2 minutes ago, August1991 said:

====

IMHO, Trudeau Snr noted that people cannot change their language, nor their religion.  

Well people can do both.  IT's not that hard to learn a new language, and people change religions quite often.

The point is that he should learn that people should NOT be compelled to do either by force of law and at the point of a gun.

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4 hours ago, August1991 said:

Should Boeing or Airbus design their airplanes so that anyone can fly their planes?

They should design aircraft based on practicality, ergonomics and safety as well as redundancy.

Same as my being left handed won't affect me driving a car. 

The vast majority of people as a result will be able to operate both.

Now, if you're 7'0 tall, should aircraft be designed with you in mind?

Should terms like height shaming be coined for door designers that don't account for your height, when entering a room?

Or better yet, should tall people be taught that they are short, and height be altered past a certain point, to avoid judgment  even though you physically look tall.

Gender dysphoria is a mental health illness. Changing its name doesn't change the treatment required for those who suffer from it. 

Sorry, but chopping off genitals isn't normal.

People are born in the right body. Just like an anorexic person likely isn't fat. Them being incredibly distress on being fat doesn't make it fact. You're doing no service to such people to play along.

Same with trans people. The moment they get out of their safe spaces, they will be quick to realize that all the affirmations that they were sheltered under don't apply around this planet. 

Dating is usually the quickest means one can find this out.

There is a reality, and to activists, there is an alternative reality. 

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