Transgender Issues

[Americana Antifa]

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But they're not - gender is biologically driven as well. And you just made that same claim a post ago or thereabouts. So - you're wrong again.

So I'm sure you're going to tell this lie a lot, but I'm not going to reply to it every single time. I'll just address it once here for the other people here who are interested.

Gender is cultural. The tropes associated with gender aren't biological. Dresses being for girls/women is not biologically determined, it's purely cultural. There's no biological reason why a man can't wear a skirt. And, of course, it used to be common in America for boys to wear dresses. In some cultures, men still wear skirts.

Now that being said, biology does play a role in gender, the same way biology plays a role in most cultures. A woman is someone who identifies with the tropes that society assigns to females at birth, and female is a biological category. Some of the tropes themselves are biological. However, because the vast majority of the tropes are cultural, we acknowledge gender as being cultural.

Also, language and specifically labels are about utility. Acknowledging the difference between sex and gender, which is objectively real, gives us the most social utility. That's partly why gender identity is based on self-identification.

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Nope. Sorry. Tattoos were never considered to be self mutilation,. They were considered to be bad things and desicrating your body etc but not mutilation.  And why would it - it's just putting ink on your body.

Yeeeeeeah, I'm going to have to call bullshit. I'm sure you know that for a long period, religious people considered tattoos a form of self-mutilation.

And yes, I know that there were also earlier periods where tattoos were accepted among religious communities, but that's the point. Views and attitudes change. Tattoos and trannies both had periods where they were accepted, then periods where they weren't.

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Cutting body parts off is mutilation.

I agree, nobody should ever get surgery. Breast reduction surgery? Get outta here with that woke shit.

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But a person could.  That's the point. What if i claim i'm a street lamp.

I mean... yeah, a person literally could. Like, a person could literally say they're a street lamp. You won't explode the moment you begin making that claim.

But words are defined by society. Society sees a street lamp as being an object, not a culture that anyone can identify as. Maybe someday the definition will change, but that's not how it is now.

On the other hand, cultural labels generally go by self-identification.

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So i was right. They weren't banned at all.  You just lied about it. Typical.

You're never right.

So what I actually said was that the fascists were already talking about banning cross-dressing. When I proved I was right, like I always am, you pretended I said that cross-dressing actually was banned.

I do think in some states it's going to be banned soon. But right now, the Right is in the discussion phase.

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

not even a tiny bit. Is porn 'banned' in america just because schools don't carry playboy?

I agree that some book bans are ok. Porn shouldn't be allowed in school or public libraries.

But that's not what we're talking about here. The book bans that Republicans are doing is just anything they don't like.

[Perspektiv]

7 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

You're never right.

Now I know you're a woman.

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

So I'm sure you're going to tell this lie a lot

You literally agreed that biology is part of it like a minute ago. Now it isn't.  Would you like me to wait 5 minutes till you agree with it again?

7 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Gender is cultural.

As the actual research i posted to you earlier shows gender is not cultural.  Expressions of gender can be but gender itself really isn't. External influences and perceptions certainly play a role but no, the statement 'gender is cultural' is wrong.  Follow the science.

10 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Now that being said, biology does play a role in gender, the same way biology plays a role in most cultures.

No, biology is a huge factor not because of the role it plays in culture but because of the biology itself. Gender perception is largely biological with external influences making up the rest. I've posted research on this, there's a tonne of other research as well which says the same thing. you can't "raise" a person to be trans.

You science deniers are pretty weird.

Anyway now that we've confirmed you don't understand what trans people or gender is all about lets move on.

12 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Yeeeeeeah, I'm going to have to call bullshit. I'm sure you know that for a long period, religious people considered tattoos a form of self-mutilation.

Yeeeaaahhhh you need to call bullshit because it doesn't match with your fabricated reasoning.  So - the church writes EVERYTHING down. You should have no problem finding me a bunch of examples where recognized church authorities say that tattoos are self mutilation.

They did have a period where they felt it was desecrating the temple which is your body.  But then many churches felt that way about make up and that washes off.

15 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

I agree, nobody should ever get surgery.

Sure -because all surgeries are just cutting off body parts for kicks. That's a pretty honest reply right? You're arguing in good faith there right?

16 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

I mean... yeah, a person literally could. Like, a person could literally say they're a street lamp.

That's right.  And telling everyone they HAVE to agree to refer to that person as a street lamp and treat them as if they were a street lamp would be pretty stupid. NOBODY would think that was  a good idea.

but that's precisely what you claim makes total sense for trans people. And it's dishonest in the extreme to suggest that forcing people to lie is a totally reasonable request. We wouldn't do it for a street lamp.

16 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

But words are defined by society.

No. Words are defined by the people who use the words. That's how it works, that's how it always works.

Corrupt societies and evil people try to control the meanings because words have power.  But in teh end they tend to fail and history isn't kind to them. "final solution" sounds nice but it didn't age well

 

20 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

So what I actually said was that the fascists were already talking about banning cross-dressing.

Yeah - and i said i bet it's one of those thigns where they're not actually talking about a ban - and you posted a story where they're not actually talking about a ban.

You absolutely lied. There was nothing in that story that said they were going to ban crossdressers.  At all.  They were suggesting shows woudln't be allowed in some areas. That is NOT a ban on cross dressing

But as we've seen, all you can do to support your position is lie,

My position doesn't need lies to be defended. You might want to think about that.

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Now I know you're a woman.

Female dude, female! Don't misgender her/him/them/it/attackhelecopter!

 Although i suspect based on her posts she self identifies as a bit of a canine.

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Sure -because all surgeries are just cutting off body parts for kicks.

Yeah, the logic is faulty. 

Breast reductions are done to correct posture and other issues. Comparative to fixing scar tissue in your back. You're in actual pain, as your body part is damaging you.

You're still a woman at the end of it. 

Gender reassignment treatment is being peddled to kids. You can't reduce breasts until they are done developing. Meaning, at the earliest, we are talking 15 or 16. Typically older. I mean, you can drive where I am at at those ages, so perfectly respectable.

Also, I have dated women with breast reductions. They still have breasts, just less painful to live with.

Comparing this to removing them, or removing a penis because one feels they are the other gender, is just faulty logic.

 

[Perspektiv]

Also, people will berate and mock someone identifying as another race or identifying as a toddler as a senior, yet someone identifying as the other gender is perfectly normal. Natural, even.

When people are pressed on this double standard, nobody can address it.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Also, people will berate and mock someone identifying as another race or identifying as a toddler as a senior, yet someone identifying as the other gender is perfectly normal. Natural, even.

When people are pressed on this double standard, nobody can address it.

Well that was my point with the lamp post. Anything else if someone claims they're a lamp post or a black person (if theyr'e white) or whatever -  we say 'no you're not you dolt' and give them a picture of a lamp post and a mirror and tell them to work it out.  But - Saying "i'm a girl" when you're a boy is encouraged.

If someone walked into a gov't office and demanded their pension at age 30 because they 'identify' as 65 they would be laughed out of the room.  And yet....

https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/trans-runner-glenique-frank-ripped-for-beating-14k-women-in-london-marathon/

Trans runner beat 14K women in London Marathon after running NYC as a man

 

A two-time Olympian has ripped rules that allowed a transgender runner to beat nearly 14,000 women in the female category of the London Marathon.

Mara Yamauchi — who finished sixth in the marathon at the 2008 Beijing Olympics — lashed out after trans racer Glenique Frank, 54, gushed to the BBC about using “girl power” to run the key UK race on Sunday.

“Males in the [female] category is UNFAIR for females,” Yamauchi tweeted alongside a clip of the mid-race interview by the sports bra-wearing runner who also gushed about soon becoming “a gran.”

“Nearly 14,000 actual females suffered a worse finish position [because] of” Frank, wrote Yamauchi — who said that even when she was “ranked second in the world” as a woman, “at least 1300 men ran faster than me.”

[Perspektiv]

6 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well that was my point with the lamp post.

Its like my nephew who was adamant the world was flat when he was 8.

I corrected him, but he was adamant. Its impossible, how do people on the bottom not fall off. 

I explained gravity to him and other concepts, but he grew louder in his protest he was right. 

I just gave up, and warned him he would get laughed at, but he stuck to his guns. He angrily shouted at his siblings for questioning his intelligence, forcing his parents to silence them. This only emboldened him that he was right. 

Everyone around him was laughing, but he had the serene mindset that he was right and people had finally accepted this.

I literally feel like this is the trans movement, today.

They're among the loudest, most entitled and violent group of activists out there. 

Lesbians are often called bigots for refusing to date trans women, and biological women are often harassed and even silenced, at the expense of the comfort of these same activists  even when it is proven that the biological women are facing harm due to this.

I mean, just maybe the growing level of anger being felt by the most vulnerable in this community, is due to those with the loudest voices trying to bogart womanhood like its an accessory.

[Americana Antifa]

On 4/27/2023 at 10:20 AM, Perspektiv said:

This has been disproved. 

Behaviors, idiosyncrasies are biological. Hard wired into us.

A dress, facial hair and appearance, like shaving legs is cultural. Being a masculine woman or an effeminate man, is perfectly normal. 

Women will typically be predisposed to certain interests as will men, same as behavior.

So how come those interests and behaviors have changed throughout history? It used to be considered masculine to cry. Now it's considered to be a feminine trait. Even today, gender norms are different depending on the society.

On 4/27/2023 at 10:20 AM, Perspektiv said:

You're not assigned anything at birth. Your sex is determined. It's done rather easily too by looking at the genitals. 

The moment someone is born, they're given a name based on their sex. Then they're given colors, toys, and clothing based on their sex. None of these have anything to do with biology other than the fact that they're all tropes that we assign to people based on biology. That's how we assign gender to children. When people say things like "If it's a male we'll name him Frank, if it's a female we'll name her Fran," that's part of assigning gender to children. 

On 4/27/2023 at 10:20 AM, Perspektiv said:

I was given girl toys, and had female siblings. I naturally gravitated towards male toys. There isn't a perfect box, but to say I could be a woman just because I am effeminate is ridiculous. It doesn't change a thing about my gender, just like skiing or skating doesn't make me any less black.

 

If you refuse to acknowledge the difference between sex and gender, there's really nothing I can say. It's like arguing with a flat-earther.

All I can say is that sex and gender are two different concepts. Yes, there isn't a perfect box, gender as a whole is kind of a stupid concept. But generally speaking, people identify based on the collection of tropes they resonate with. And because labels are all about social utility, it makes the most sense to recognize people as the gender they self-identify as. I've yet to hear an argument that ignoring a person's self-identity gives us more utility. 

[Perspektiv]

19 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

gender norms

You're eluding to stereotypical behavior. I am eluding to instictive and primal behavior.

19 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

that's part of assigning gender to children. 

I don't see the assignment from a doctor determining sex by looking at the genitals and recording the gender.

19 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

it makes the most sense to recognize people as the gender they self-identify as

So if a trans woman doesn't pass and still has male genitalia decides to shower in the women's gym, your logic has any female feeling threatened needs to have their heads checked, as they are being transphobic. 

This ignores their natural instincts. Their safety. Their natural womanhood. 

They see a male. Self identify as you see fit. The world isn't obligated to play along. Certainly not at the expense of hard fought for women's rights. Biological women, to be clear.

Nothing wrong with being trans. Something incredibly wrong with those pushing trans ideology to children. 

This has nothing to do with rights, no more than defunding the police has nothing to do with actually protecting the black community.

[Americana Antifa]

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

You're eluding to stereotypical behavior. I am eluding to instictive and primal behavior.

But that so-called instinctive and primal behavior is present in all people. It's just been associated with different sexes depending on the time and culture. Crying used to be seen as a primal male thing. Today most people would say it's feminine.

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't see the assignment from a doctor determining sex by looking at the genitals and recording the gender.

Not what I said. I said giving the baby a name, colors, clothing, and toys all based on their sex is how we assign gender to babies.

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

So if a trans woman doesn't pass and still has male genitalia decides to shower in the women's gym, your logic has any female feeling threatened needs to have their heads checked, as they are being transphobic.

So first of all, my view of gender being about self-identity is about utility. The vast majority of trans women are on a spectrum of feminine-looking to completely passing. The scenarios you're describing are extremely rare, which is saying a lot, considering that like 2% of the population is trans.

Secondly, feeling threatened in that situation isn't necessarily transphobic. Feeling threatened because there are black people in the showers isn't necessarily racist. People are complicated, sometimes they feel a certain way even when they know it's wrong. But I think as society becomes less transphobic and sexist, and as we all learn more about consent, social interactions will improve on their own. People will be less likely to feel threatened around "different" people.

Quote

They see a male. Self identify as you see fit. The world isn't obligated to play along. Certainly not at the expense of hard fought for women's rights. Biological women, to be clear.

This has nothing to do with women's rights. Trans rights doesn't mean women lose their rights. Fascists are trying to appeal to normies by saying their transphobia is just about protecting women, which is so fake, considering these people are also against women's rights, they're just not as loud about it. Fascists will scream about protecting women, meanwhile they want a national ban on abortion and divorce.

[CdnFox]

11 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

This has nothing to do with women's rights. Trans rights doesn't mean women lose their rights.

It absolutely does. Women lose the right to their sexual privacy as they are now forced to be naked around men based on the man's say so. They lose their right to compete in sports with equals as men can compete as women on a whim. Or compete as a man OR a woman on a whim as we just saw.

They lose their rights to programs exclusively designed to help women because now men claiming to be women can access them. They are mocked and objectified by men who claim to be women and then wear gigantic fake breasts and the like.

Women must lose a lot of rights for trans to get their rights.

11 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Fascists are trying to appeal to normies by saying their transphobia is just about protecting women, which is so fake,

Silly fascists, tricks are for kids!!

Man those fascist are everywhere aren't they? Amazing!  I haven't seen any group be so pervasively present since the patriarchy.

11 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

 Fascists will scream about protecting women, meanwhile they want a national ban on abortion and divorce.

LOL and divorce now is it

Hey - if a fascist ever tries to ban divorce - all you need to do is marry them for one day. I guarantee they'll be a believer

 

[Americana Antifa]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It absolutely does. Women lose the right to their sexual privacy as they are now forced to be naked around men based on the man's say so.

Forced! Women are being forced to be naked! This is definitely something that is happening!

Quote

They lose their right to compete in sports with equals as men can compete as women on a whim. Or compete as a man OR a woman on a whim as we just saw.

That's not a right. And in professional sports there are strict rules regarding trans participants. That's why men aren't dominating women's sports in the Olympics. In order for trans women to complete, they need to have been on hormones long enough that they no longer have an advantage. 

Quote

Man those fascist are everywhere aren't they? Amazing!  I haven't seen any group be so pervasively present since the patriarchy.

Unfortunately, this is true. Conservatism is reactionary and anti-democracy. So it was very easy for the Right to go from conservatism to fascism.

[Perspektiv]

4 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

how we assign gender to babies.

Because babies understand gender norms. Like I said, gender is determined at birth--not assigned.

4 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

Secondly, feeling threatened in that situation isn't necessarily transphobic.

It isn't at all. Seeing someone like this naked in the gym, and feeling threatened as a woman is perfectly normal. 

4 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

Trans rights doesn't mean women lose their rights.

Women will lose some of their rights. Allowing a trans woman like the one I posted above in say, a female jail, is a violation of the rights of all the women that are there.

[Perspektiv]

48 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

fascism

Just like the far left go from liberal policies, to lunacy seamlessly. When you start to confuse what it is to be a man or a woman (or struggle to define the latter without adding how complicated that it is), you fit the bill.

[Americana Antifa]

7 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

When you start to confuse what it is to be a man or a woman (or struggle to define the latter without adding how complicated that it is), you fit the bill.

Didn't I already explain the difference between sex and gender to you?

[CdnFox]

55 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Forced! Women are being forced to be naked! This is definitely something that is happening!

Yes - it's not as easy to shower with your clothes on.

Or do you mean they should be forced to stop going to gyms and such and stay home in the kitchen like good little women so that the trans people can have their rights? I feel like you're about 60 years too late for that fight,.

55 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

That's not a right.

The women think it is. Awww look at you, repressing women you don't agree with and all So cute when the fascist left decides what's best for other people!

55 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

And in professional sports there are strict rules regarding trans participants. That's why men aren't dominating women's sports in the Olympics.

Men are dominating sports in lots of places. I just posted a big article about that. A 'trans' person who competed at a world event in one country as a male because it suited him and then competed a week later as a femaie in another country because that was best and he won. Said it was a victory for 'girl power'.

So you're full of crap.

55 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

In order for trans women to complete, they need to have been on hormones long enough that they no longer have an advantage. 

Not true, sorry.

I mean i get why you feel the need to lie about it. But its' not true. As we'll see below. And btw - this is a COMMON story.

Meet an athlete who's never taken a hormone in his life - tell me all about how this was fair:

https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/trans-runner-glenique-frank-ripped-for-beating-14k-women-in-london-marathon/

"“Nearly 14,000 actual females suffered a worse finish position [because] of” Frank, wrote Yamauchi — who said that even when she was “ranked second in the world” as a woman, “at least 1300 men ran faster than me.”"

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Didn't I already explain the difference between sex and gender to you?

The male female man woman thing?

Yeah - nobody buys your shit.

[Americana Antifa]

11 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Because babies understand gender norms. Like I said, gender is determined at birth--not assigned.

Babies don't, but as they grow up, they do. People are conditioned to identify as their gender from the moment they're born.

It's ironic, reactionaries don't like that the media is teaching people to be ok with trans people. But we never talk about how media and society as a whole conditions people to conform to gender norms literally since they're born.

11 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

It isn't at all. Seeing someone like this naked in the gym, and feeling threatened as a woman is perfectly normal. 

It's normal, but it's not good. This is something we should work on changing. The same way it was normal for white people to freak out when a black family moved into the neighborhood.

11 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Women will lose some of their rights. Allowing a trans woman like the one I posted above in say, a female jail, is a violation of the rights of all the women that are there.

How so?

Again, there's some irony here. There's no evidence that having trans women in a women's prison leads to more cases of sexual abuse. However, there's tons of evidence that prison guards abuse prisoners and often get away with it. But do conservatives care? Nope, the only time conservatives talk about prison reform is when they can use it for political reasons, like transphobia and freeing the 1/6 terrorists.

[Americana Antifa]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Yes - it's not as easy to shower with your clothes on.

Women are being FORECED into public showers!

[Perspektiv]

"Maybe childhood makes you sad sometimes, and there are other solutions than hand me the d*** saw" Bill Maher

When you question the trendiness of the trans movement, you get canceled.

When you question the affirmation of gender identity, without being thorough, you get silenced.

Should this lawsuit prove successful, there will be a massive domino effect, as people start to wake up.

I wanted a vasectomy. I had to undergo so much questioning before even remotely being allowed to be considered for one.

This is responsible medical care.

What you're pushing will have a domino effect later, with thousands of lawsuits, sterilized adults and other issues time will only tell.

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Women are being FORECED into public showers!

They are if they want to participate in our society.

Ohhhh  = you really did want them to stay at home and not go out so the trans could have their showers.

Well. That says quite a bit about you.

Tell you what.  The trans people aren't FORCED to dress like members of the opposite sex. THey're not FORCED to use public washrooms or gyms. They're not FORCED to refer to themselves as a gender other than their biological sex.

Sooo -  if you're so willing to deny women their rights because they're not FORCED to leave the home, why exactly should we give trans their rights?

[Americana Antifa]

48 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

"Maybe childhood makes you sad sometimes, and there are other solutions than hand me the d*** saw" Bill Maher

Do you really think that's how it works? Like a child says they might be trans and the doctor just does the surgery?

[CdnFox]

32 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Do you really think that's how it works? Like a child says they might be trans and the doctor just does the surgery?

You think there's ANY scenario where grabbing the d^ck-saw based on a child's feelings is going to work out well?

Here's how the left thinks things work:

-Daddy can i stay up all night? I Want to!
 

No - you're too young to make that decision, you have to go to bed.

-Daddy I want to eat candy bars for every meal.

No, you are way too young to choose your own diet like that, we'll make your food for you.

-Daddy i've decided to marry brandon from my class.

haha - well you're too young to decide that just yet,  lets wait till you're at least 18, then you can decide.

-Daddy i want to cut off my penis and be a girl

Well if that's your decision, your 8 now so you're mature enough to decide something like that which will impact the rest of your life on your own.

 

Does this make sense to anyone? The left wonders why normal people think they're nuts?

[Americana Antifa]

44 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You think there's ANY scenario where grabbing the d^ck-saw based on a child's feelings is going to work out well?

So this might come as a shock, but neither of us are doctors. We generally leave extreme medical cases like that up to people who have spent years proving that they understand medical emergencies.

Imagine saying to someone, do you think there's ANY scenario where pumping toxic chemicals into someone works out well, as an argument against chemotherapy.

 

44 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Does this make sense to anyone? The left wonders why normal people think they're nuts?

 

You're lying again. I already proved that most Americans side with the Left when it comes to trans rights.

The whole reason why the Right lies so much when it comes to trans issues is because the truth sounds reasonable. Y'all have to lie in order to make it sound bad.