Do you believe that Jesus really existed ?

[French Patriot]

On 3/24/2022 at 9:53 AM, Dowell said:

Those who care only for themselves are the tares.

Why would a God create such abominations if he did not want them around?

Regards

DL

[French Patriot]

On 3/25/2022 at 7:52 PM, Dowell said:

On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life.

It is a shame to build an immoral theology on an outright and demonstrable lie.

Dead people stay dead.

Regards

DL

 

 

[OftenWrong]

22 hours ago, Dowell said:

How do you know that Paul was never among them.

Says so in the bible, though It’s been many years since I’ve read it.

Saul claimed he had an ecstatic vision of Christ. This occurred a few decades after Jesus was reportedly crucified. 

So if Jesus was real, he would have been dead by then.

Unless by real you people mean... something else?

[Dowell]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Says so in the bible, though It’s been many years since I’ve read it.

It seems you are basing your assumption on a vague recollection of what you read years ago. The pharisees were constantly confronting Jesus, trying to prove Him to be a false prophet. Saul (later known as Paul) was one of the leaders, he was given authority to imprison, and even put to death the followers of Jesus. It seems that Jesus was very real to Paul. To state with certainty that he was never among those who contested with Jesus, and never went to hear Him speak doesn't seem to be all that well founded. You say the bible says that Paul never met Jesus, please provide your source, or admit that you posted something that you don't know to be true. Paul seeing the resurrected Jesus does not exclude him from having seen Jesus before His crucifixion.

[Dowell]

4 hours ago, French Patriot said:

It is a shame to build an immoral theology on an outright and demonstrable lie.

Dead people stay dead.

It seems that this is not always true.

It is a shame to build an immoral theology on an outright and demonstrable lie.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

Results Suggesting the Reality of Near-Death Experiences

 

Lucid, organized experiences while unconscious, comatose, or clinically dead 

Near-death experiences occur at a time when the person is so physically compromised that they are typically unconscious, comatose, or clinically dead. Considering NDEs from both a medical perspective and logically, it should not be possible for unconscious people to often report highly lucid experiences that are clear and logically structured. Most NDErs report supernormal consciousness at the time of their NDEs.

Near-death experiences often occur in association with cardiac arrest.  Prior studies found that 10–20 seconds following cardiac arrest, electroencephalogram measurements generally find no significant measureable brain cortical electrical activity.  A prolonged, detailed, lucid experience following cardiac arrest should not be possible, yet this is reported in many NDEs. This is especially notable given the prolonged period of amnesia that typically precedes and follows recovery from cardiac arrest. 

Scientists call these events near death, because they can't admit that people who have died can return to life. People who have no brain activity for extended periods of time are not near death, they are dead. To return, and have lucid recollections means that they did not stay dead.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Dowell

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Dowell said:

It seems you are basing your assumption on a vague recollection of what you read years ago. The pharisees were constantly confronting Jesus, trying to prove Him to be a false prophet. Saul (later known as Paul) was one of the leaders, he was given authority to imprison, and even put to death the followers of Jesus. It seems that Jesus was very real to Paul. To state with certainty that he was never among those who contested with Jesus, and never went to hear Him speak doesn't seem to be all that well founded. You say the bible says that Paul never met Jesus, please provide your source, or admit that you posted something that you don't know to be true. Paul seeing the resurrected Jesus does not exclude him from having seen Jesus before His crucifixion.

I dont come here to teach history to people. You want to prove he met Jesus, go right ahead. You could start with the year Saul was born. 

[OftenWrong]

“Do you believe Jesus really existed?”

or rather, when did you stop beating your wife?

The devil is asking you this question. 

Answer it, and lose your soul...

[French Patriot]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:36 PM, Dowell said:

Saul (later known as Paul)

Just to remind.

We have no real clue as to who the real writers were for the gospels.

They are all anonymous.

Only 4 of many were selected and that number, stupidly, because there are only 4 Cardinal points.

Given that only the foolish will read them literally, who care whos myth one follows?

Regards

DL

 

[Dowell]

21 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I dont come here to teach history to people. You want to prove he met Jesus, go right ahead. You could start with the year Saul was born. 

I wouldn’t try to prove to you that Paul met Jesus, because I HAVE NO IDEA. The point is that you don’t either, even though uou stated that he hadn’t, with no basis in fact. That is classic denialism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism

denialism is a person's choice to deny reality as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth.

The motivations and causes of denialism include religion, self-interest (economic, political, or financial), and defence mechanisms meant to protect the psyche of the denialist against mentally disturbing facts and ideas; such disturbance is called cognitive dissonance in psychology terms.

 

As for the source of the New Testament.

https://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/when-was-new-testament-written.html

Amazing as it sounds, the entire New Testament was written down through the efforts of only eight men! Six of these were selected apostles of Christ. Three were eyewitnesses of his life and ministry (Matthew, Peter and John). Two were the physical brothers of Jesus (James and Jude).

One of the New Testament writers, the apostle Paul, was specially called to serve the Gentiles and for three years was personally taught by Christ in Arabia. The last two of eight authors were Mark (who penned his Gospel under Peter's supervision), and Luke (who authored his Gospel and the book of Acts under the Apostle Paul's supervision).

[French Patriot]

21 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

“Do you believe Jesus really existed?”

or rather, when did you stop beating your wife?

The devil is asking you this question. 

Answer it, and lose your soul...

My wife likes it, so do the kids.

Leave us have our fun.

Regards

DL

 

[French Patriot]

3 minutes ago, Dowell said:

One of the New Testament writers, the apostle Paul, was specially called to serve the Gentiles and for three years was personally taught by Christ in Arabia. The last two of eight authors were Mark (who penned his Gospel under Peter's supervision), and Luke (who authored his Gospel and the book of Acts under the Apostle Paul's supervision).

As you quote word as if not interpreted from a dead language, as if we really know what they mean, tell us. 

How do you deal with the scriptures that say that God put's lies into the prophets mouths?

Regards

DL

[SkyHigh]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:03 PM, French Patriot said:

Just to remind.

We have no real clue as to who the real writers were for the gospels.

They are all anonymous.

Only 4 of many were selected and that number, stupidly, because there are only 4 Cardinal points.

Given that only the foolish will read them literally, who care whos myth one follows?

Regards

DL

 

In the interest of being honest (often a foreign concept to theists,  but I digress) yes the gospels are completely anonymous and furthermore don't speak in the first person and make no claims of even being written by someone contemporary to the life of Jesus.ie; my second cousins wife's sisters ex roommate told me about this dude that did some cool shit

Paul on the other hand, is historical and most historians including secular,  confirm that some of the letters published in the New Testament were written by Paul, now others have been confirmed forgeries and of those authenticated most are just semantic debates over doctrine to other early Cristian church leaders 

The more you know and all.. hahahaha 

[Dowell]

5 hours ago, SkyHigh said:

In the interest of being honest (often a foreign concept to theists,  but I digress)

Of course you digress. The topic is, Do you believe that Jesus really existed ? It seems to have digressed into a debate on the validity of the bible, and a critique of the church. As to the topic Paul, and Luke were contemporaries of Jesus, as was Matthew. These were educated literate men unlike most of the apostles, who were Galilean fishers and others of humble origins who went on to change the world. Their teachings were  preserved by their followers who wanted to preserve what they had been taught so they could share this knowledge with future generations. Jewish and Roman historians also believed that Jesus really existed.

[OftenWrong]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:07 PM, French Patriot said:

My wife likes it, so do the kids.

Leave us have our fun.

Regards

DL

 

Not to worry. Far be it from me to take your fun (or god) away from you.

Carry on blaspheming...   

[OftenWrong]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:04 PM, Dowell said:

wouldn’t try to prove to you that Paul met Jesus, because I HAVE NO IDEA. The point is that you don’t either, even though uou stated that he hadn’t, with no basis in fact. That is classic denialism.

Nothing to do with denial, which is actually a river in Egypt. 

Paul only admits he saw Jesus in a vision. This happened some years after the crucifixion. None of his writings indicate that he encountered Jesus any other time. And Paul was a big talker. Paul talked so much the other apostles hated him. He usurped leadership of the christian movement and took it in a different direction.

 

On 3/26/2022 at 9:55 AM, OftenWrong said:

A will to a system is the antichrist.

System, Embodiment, Corpus.

Incorporated

The incorporation of Christ...

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by OftenWrong

[Dowell]

11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Nothing to do with denial, which is actually a river in Egypt. 

The Nile is very important biblically, I am glad that you believe it exists.

[OftenWrong]

On 4/2/2022 at 9:31 AM, Dowell said:

The Nile is very important biblically, I am glad that you believe it exists.

The church knows what actually happened. Somewhere in their vaults are notes taken from when they made the Nicean creed, for example. Certain... illegal documents... that must be kept hidden for the protection of the church.

Church, power structure, embodiment, corpus, corporation. Christ, Inc.

But aside from this, the question whether Jesus was real or not becomes irrelevant when you realize what Paul wrote was about the spiritual moral aspects of thought. 

 

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The church knows what actually happened. Somewhere in their vaults are notes taken from when they made the Nicean creed, for example. Certain... illegal documents... that must be kept hidden for the protection of the church.

So Jesus is hidden in the gaps behind the conspiracies. How convenient.

Its easy to see how politics gets such a bad rap too.

[OftenWrong]

59 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So Jesus is hidden in the gaps behind the conspiracies. How convenient.

Its easy to see how politics gets such a bad rap too.

Oh dear, another one of us who has lost his soul.

You shouldnt’a came in here...

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Oh dear, another one of us who has lost his soul.

You shouldnt’a came in here...

Don't sweat it, I can't lose what I never had. Lol!

But I'm a big fan of Jesus the lefty humanist.

[Dowell]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

whether Jesus was real or not becomes irrelevant when you realize what Paul wrote was about the spiritual moral aspects of thought. 

Spiritual moral aspects of thought.  Of course his teaching  goes deeper than that.  What he taught was more than  moral  thinking, it was moral living. He taught that we should be good neighbours, and good citizens in essence the wheat, not the tares.  This is a result of his  transformation after  encountering Jesus on the road to Damascus. Before this encounter he dedicated his life to imprisoning and killing others, after he taught us to love support and care for others. Irrelevant to you, but not to all.

[SkyHigh]

On 3/30/2022 at 12:59 AM, Dowell said:

Of course you digress. The topic is, Do you believe that Jesus really existed ? It seems to have digressed into a debate on the validity of the bible, and a critique of the church. As to the topic Paul, and Luke were contemporaries of Jesus, as was Matthew. These were educated literate men unlike most of the apostles, who were Galilean fishers and others of humble origins who went on to change the world. Their teachings were  preserved by their followers who wanted to preserve what they had been taught so they could share this knowledge with future generations. Jewish and Roman historians also believed that Jesus really existed.

I'm able to digress because people like you prove my point for me.

The Bible is off topic? The only book that claims knowledge of Jesus is off topic?

As far as people like tacitus and josephus(who parts of his writings are most likely forgeries) they at best said people said some dude named Jesus did some stuff, neither of them were Christian 

I already spoke to Paul's authenticity ,but he never met Jesus ( or at least he didn't mention it) his "vision" wasn't even until roughly 5 years after the crucifixion 

As for the gospels, the concensus amongst scolars both religious and secular fully acknowledge that the names attributed to the gospels were added after by church fathers or scipes, and were written between 70 and 120ad, in a language (greek) different than what was spoken by Jesus( Aramaic) and his followers and were oral traditions passed down for decades before being written down 

None speak as eyewitnesses. 

Mathew uses a third person narrative,  and borrows heavily from Mark, written approximately 20 years before Mathew 

Luke literally starts with the author saying he's writing down things told to him by actual eyewitnesses,  or maybe just people that talked to people who talked to eyewitnesses ( nobody knows) not things he saw himself 

Again did some messianic, apocalyptic preacher named yeshua exist around year 30? probably, was that man ( or men, some have proposed its a combination of a few self-proclaimed "prophets") the divine son of God referenced in the Bible? Probably not

Edited April 12, 2022 by SkyHigh

[Dowell]

16 hours ago, SkyHigh said:

The Bible is off topic? The only book that claims knowledge of Jesus is off topic?

You say that the bible is the only book that speaks of Jesus, and immediately follow by mentioning Tacitus and Josephus. You don’t see a contradiction there? The topic is do you believe that Jesus really existed, and denigrated into attacks on the authorship of the bible, and God’s plan.  Of course conspiracy theorists believe what they choose to believe no matter how compelling the evidence is. The theory here is that a small group of mostly illiterate Galileans got together, and conspired to spread throughout the world telling a story of a Redeemer. Their intent was to  trick the world into loving their neighbour as themselves.

[kristinaneiper]

I think that He really did exist because it would be too difficult to invent such a grand person. Maybe he was not like most people know him, and there were some other special things about him. There are apocryphal writings that tell things about Jesus that are not entirely traditional about Jesus. Lots of things in history are messed up and drowned.
He should’ve been a really important and significant guest… I totally don’t understand why people are fighting over it so much  - you can just choose to believe or not to believe – that’s all. I still think that Jesus did exist, and he was a good guy.

Edited April 29, 2022 by kristinaneiper

[French Patriot]

52 minutes ago, kristinaneiper said:

I think that He really did exist because it would be too difficult to invent such a grand person

Jesus was, what, the 6th God to die for mankind?

It is not hard to invent when you are just adding on.

Further, what is grand about a genocidal Armageddon, homophobia and misogyny?

Only a really evil person would see "grand" in Jesus ever showing his face again.

We can and do better.

Regards

DL