How did the US defeat the Soviets and win the Cold War?

[August1991]

I've been wondering about this. (It apparently bugs Putin too. But I've never considered Russia and Soviet as synonyms.)

After Brest-Litovsk, what was Russia?

After 1945, what was the Soviet Union? -East Prussia, "Poland", etc. 

=====

Truman was resolute - he started the Korean War.

Eisenhower accepted a peace treaty, DMZ, separation of Korea.

Stalin died. Khruschev took power.

Kennedy was resolute - he started the Vietnam War.

Brezhnev took power.

Nixon made deals.

Reagan refused any contact with the Soviets.

Gorbachev took power.

The Soviet Union imploded in August 1991. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Charles Anthony
spelling; title

[August1991]

In case there's confusion, the США defeated the CCCP.

Like it or not, since the 1800s, as individuals, we all live in defined States - often with initials.

Some States are sustainable; others are not. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, August1991 said:

Some States are sustainable; others are not. 

None of them are, since the sun will eventually envelop the earth and it will be impossible to maintain our borders or indeed prevent mass melting of the citizenry.

If it's any comfort, my understanding is we will likely never see a 4-4 tie in the NFL between now and then.

[August1991]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

None of them are, since the sun will eventually envelop the earth and it will be impossible to maintain our borders or indeed prevent mass melting of the citizenry.

If it's any comfort, my understanding is we will likely never see a 4-4 tie in the NFL between now and then.

WTF? Sun? Earth?

====

Standard Western/Progressive Thought: The Soviets/Russians defeated the Germans in Stalingrad. In January 1943, there was a kettle. (Russians in particular believe this.)

In fact, each Western soldier - whatever the origin - won the war.

They defeated Hitler, and they eventually defeated Stalin.

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, August1991 said:

They defeated Hitler, and they eventually defeated Stalin.

The key word is sustainable.  No human idea is sustainable, but rather it stands until a better one arrives.  On the plus side, there's always a push for improvement and there's always a collective memory.

Would you rather live in Greece, the unsustainable modern state or glorious Ancient Greece?

Hint: your Visa wouldn't work in the latter and no indoor plumbing.

 

[OftenWrong]

First,

- Never trust a Russian politician. Vlad Putin is an extremely talented and gifted man, for example.

Second,

What is Soviet. If you mean the USSR, ok, fine. But to the Russian,, communist mind, a Soviet is a thing like a person. One who is supreme. For further reference, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man

=====

That's why Vlad Putin, is a talented man...

Edited January 1, 2021 by OftenWrong
improvement

[CITIZEN_2015]

Soviet Union was an evil empire suppressing its own people and half of Europe not to mention military invasions of other countries. A state based on repression and suppression will not last forever and will sooner or later collapsed by its own people, We have seen many examples of that in Europe and South America past many years and we will see more examples in Iran,  Syria and ....... hopefully sooner rather than later.

[August1991]

On 1/1/2021 at 1:13 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Soviet Union was an evil empire suppressing its own people and half of Europe not to mention military invasions of other countries. A state based on repression and suppression will not last forever and will sooner or later collapsed by its own people, We have seen many examples of that in Europe and South America past many years and we will see more examples in Iran,  Syria and ....... hopefully sooner rather than later.

The Soviet Union was not sustainable.

===

Russia is sustainable.

 

[August1991]

On 1/3/2021 at 9:28 PM, August1991 said:

The Soviet Union was not sustainable.

===

Russia is sustainable.

 

Let me make this clear.

The US is sustainable The CCCP is not sustainable.

[xul]

On 1/5/2021 at 8:26 PM, August1991 said:

Let me make this clear.

The US is sustainable The CCCP is not sustainable.

Every empire was sustainable before it collapsed due to the common weakness of mankind: greed. 

Just like in this ad video: every rat is alive before it meets this rat trap which exploits rats' weakness.

The only question that remains is: When will the empire of USA meet its bitter end?

 

[OftenWrong]

Judging by recent events, communism is far from dead.

The Russian bear is just playing dead till you come close enough. Get it? Reverse whammy. 

They continue to fund subversive propaganda in all countries in the world, including America. Only now it is not a head-on fight anymore. Russians are sneaky.

They know how to play chess. 

[August1991]

On 1/7/2021 at 1:07 AM, xul said:

Every empire was sustainable before it collapsed due to the common weakness of mankind: greed.

.... 

The United States is not an "Empire". It is a creation of a Constitution, written on paper.

"China" is based on a language, or maybe a habit of eating.  And "Russia" is based on a language, or maybe a religion.

=====

Let's see what happens in the future.  

[August1991]

Here's the point of my OP:

The Soviet Union won some battles/places: Cuba, Vietnam, places in Africa, Laos, maybe Afghanistan, etc.

Everyone knows about how the Americans lost the "Vietnam War".

======

But the Soviets did not eventually win. They lost. 

So, how did the Americans defeat the Soviets?

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

So, how did the Americans defeat the Soviets?

The Americans had "Mainstream Media".  The Soviets had their equivalent of OAN.

The Americans had liberalism.  The Soviets didn't have that.

The American system led to corrections to failure, pursuit of excellence and a stronger economy, which they used to fund a superior military and general wealth. 

[xul]

23 hours ago, August1991 said:

The United States is not an "Empire". It is a creation of a Constitution, written on paper.

"China" is based on a language, or maybe a habit of eating.  And "Russia" is based on a language, or maybe a religion.

=====

Let's see what happens in the future.  

empire

Quote

1. an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly especially an emperor or empress.

2. a large commercial organization owned or controlled by one person or group.

1 is the definition of those old empires, like Roman Empire and British Empire. But a modern empire like CCCP or US is more like a commercial empire defined by 2, which is usually composed by a parent company with many subsidiary companies. The bands between the parent country and subsidiaries are no longer the loyalty to a king or an emperor but how many shares of a subsidiary are hold by the parent country. The USA holds the majority shares of western countries on security, technology and economy fields, which makes it the boss of the empire and makes others subsidiaries.

The boundary of an empire is far beyond the boundary of its parent country.

Russia was once the parent country of Russian Empire and then the Soviet Empire. But nowadays Russia alone even isn't sustainable as a great power in the world. Lots of people mixed the power Russia inherited from the CCCP empire with the power of Russia as a stand-alone country. Without those toys which Emperor Stalin and Emperor Brezhnev left, Putin even couldn't sell his new toy Su-57 to India and find a dock to get his Brezhnev era old toy Admiral Kuznetsov overhauled. There is a huge difference between sustainable and surviving.?

Soviet Empire failed mainly because most Russian people didn't understand the importance of those subsidiaries of CCCP Empire to them and merely saw them as liabilities to Russia. Now Putin's best spy Donald Trump has introduced this Russian mental virus into US and gotten half of the population infected. I think within a few decades we will see if the USA will also go down the same path which Soviet Empire went down in 1980s-1990s. 

Now Putin's best shot is to let China and US fight each other, then Russia could seize the chance to regain the lost territory of the old Russian Empire and lay the foundation to make Russia great again. Since Trump has made the decoupling between US and China irreversible, I'm a bit optimistic that Putin will make it.

---------------

??

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by xul

[August1991]

On 1/9/2021 at 6:16 PM, xul said:

empire

1 is the definition of those old empires, like Roman Empire and British Empire. But a modern empire like CCCP or US is more like a commercial empire defined by....

Now Putin's best shot is to let China and US fight each other, then Russia could seize the chance to regain the lost territory of the old Russian Empire and lay the foundation to make Russia great again. Since Trump has made the decoupling between US and China irreversible, I'm a bit optimistic that Putin will make it.

...

xul, you don't get it.

=====

America has won on two fronts:

1. The market system works and makes people better off:  (Khruschev was wrong, Deng Xiao-Ping was correct). 

2. An individual should be free to be what the person is. (The 1700s writers of America's constitution were correct; Lee Quan Yew was wrong.)  

My OP: Why and how did this American victory happen?

Edited January 12, 2021 by August1991

[xul]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:58 PM, August1991 said:

xul, you don't get it.

=====

America has won on two fronts:

1. The market system works and makes people better off:  (Khruschev was wrong, Deng Xiao-Ping was correct). 

2. An individual should be free to be what the person is. (The 1700s writers of America's constitution were correct; Lee Quan Yew was wrong.)  

My OP: Why and how did this American victory happen?

Just assume: Before ww2 if US was bordered by Poland in Europe and Soviet was located by Canada in North America, would US still win the Cold War or could even exist until the Cold War began? I mean there would still be a cold war but it would probably be between Soviet and Nazi, not US vs CCCP at all.

The "Market System Always Triumph" theory is just a political-correct day-dream which was created by fiscal conservative nerd professors. Even those conservative politicians and economists in power don't believe the theory.  If they truly believe the theory, why do they always blame China for subsidizing state-owned companies since the non-marking method would result that China eventually fail? If the CEO of Boeing believed the theory, why would Boeing sue Bombardier for getting subsidies from Canadian government to kill the CSeries? Since subsidizing wasn't a market solution and was deemed to fail according to the theory, why wouldn't  Boeing just wait for CSeries failed by itself?

Without Chairman Mao's state-owned factories which had trained hundreds of millions of Chinese illiterate peasants to skilled industrial workers during 26 years of Mao's rule, where would you assume that Deng Xiao Ping could find so many workers to fill in Walmart factories in China?

If Americans truly believed that an individual should be free to be what the person is, why should they ban Trump free to be what he is on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, ?Tik Tok?, mainstream media .... and even try to ban him as the President of US----I mean the impeachment?

[OftenWrong]

I have no idea what this thread is talking about anyway. The soviets won.

[DogOnPorch]

11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I have no idea what this thread is talking about anyway. The soviets won.

 

I've got some nice test blast footage assembled in the club...that's always fun.

You know...Farm Report...

[Owl]

 

Uncle Vova is too interested in his money, but not in the interests of Russia.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Owl

[August1991]

On 1/14/2021 at 2:15 AM, xul said:

..

The "Market System Always Triumph" theory is just a political-correct day-dream which was created by fiscal conservative nerd professors.

....

Like Adam Smith, for example.

=====

So, why is North Korea a disaster - but South Korea rich?

Why did the Soviet Union collapse?

=====

But I have two broader points:

1. Prices, markets are good. Numbers help people co-operate.

2. Individual freedom is good. When individuals choose their own way, it is good. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by August1991

[-TSS-]

Gorbachev is praised in the west for facilitating the fall of the Berlin Wall and the political freedom of the Eastern-bloc countries.

However, in Russia he is absolutely despided. It is funny how people in the west think that if they just got rid of Putin there would be some Gorbached 2.0 to take his place.

Instead there could be someone like Zhirinovsky.

[xul]

On 4/1/2021 at 10:29 PM, August1991 said:

Like Adam Smith, for example.

=====

So, why is North Korea a disaster - but South Korea rich?

Why did the Soviet Union collapse?

=====

But I have two broader points:

1. Prices, markets are good. Numbers help people co-operate.

2. Individual freedom is good. When individuals choose their own way, it is good. 

Kim Jong-un: Nuke is good. I have nukes so I have survived and you are died.

Saddam Hussein: You have survived because your country borders with China and Russia. If I had nukes, Iraq would have been wiped out by US's nuclear strike...

When you compare two things, you need to put them under same the same condition. If you put all the sanctions which NK bears on SK, you will see "market or freedom" won't save the day.

If you had ever paid attention to the long line before the return counter when you were shopping at Walmart, Costco or Best Buy after Boxing Day and though through it, you would know "individuals choose their own way" didn't mean they would certainly choose the right way.... 

If US indeed believed in market solutions, why would it need to put sanctions on anyone? Why would it just let individual companies choose if they wanted to trade with NK, Myanmar, Russia.... or not?

Edited April 13, 2021 by xul

[August1991]

On 1/22/2021 at 10:24 PM, OftenWrong said:

I have no idea what this thread is talking about anyway. The soviets won.

No, the Soviets/Marxists lost. Mao and Ho Chi Minh lost.

=====

America, the market won: Vietnam is now a free trading economy.

 

 

[August1991]

On 1/22/2021 at 10:24 PM, OftenWrong said:

I have no idea what this thread is talking about anyway.

America won: Nowadays, in the west, gays are free to kiss in public.

Edited April 14, 2021 by August1991