Panic, Ignorance, Shut Up Already

[betsy]

Call it fear, or whatever......but it's reality.

I've just come back from grocery shopping - no matter how the government reassures Canadians, those reassurances are  not working.  A lot of shelves are empty!  Fresh meat, and milk are rationed.   I told the floor supervisor that "with a lot of shelves empty, it looks scary."   He said, "we've been waiting for deliveries since Thursday!  Since Thursday!"

The manager who's helping at the cash said, "it's looking dire."

 

I wore a mask!   I'm the only who wore a mask and gloves in a very busy place!  The floor stocker kidded with me - screeching "get away! get away!"  I said, "I feel like an alien!"  At least it's good to see people still have their sense of humor.

Edited March 21, 2020 by betsy

[Guest ProudConservative]

3 minutes ago, betsy said:

Call it fear, or whatever......but it's reality.

I've just come back from grocery shopping - no matter how the government reassures Canadians - those reassurances are  not working.  A lot of shelves are empty!  Fresh meat, and milk are rationed.   I told the floor supervisor that "with a lot of shelves empty, it looks scary."   He said, "we've been waiting for deliveries since Thursday!  Since Thursday!"

The manager who's helping at the cash said, "it's looking dire."

What city is this, if you don't mind me asking?

[betsy]

4 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

What city is this, if you don't mind me asking?

I can't give it.  It's a steadily growing city that still feels like a town.   You can't go out without bumping into someone you know.  It still has that charm of camaraderie.   Even people you don't know are friendly!  We're close to Ottawa.

Edited March 21, 2020 by betsy

[Zeitgeist]

26 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

What should the punishment be for those who willingly break quarantine when infected, and go out to crowded public areas?

Probably temporary detainment at a facility would be enough to frighten people into compliance. We are faced with two impossible roads and must find a better path. A prolonged poorly maintained lockdown gives us a collapsed economy. Abandoning major public safety measures and allowing everyone to return to activities leads to mass deaths and a public health crisis.  Therefore, we should go to a finite strictly enforced quarantine of 4-6 weeks, complete mass testing, and have a gradual return to smaller group work environments, remaining hyper vigilant about identifying, quarantining, and where necessary, treating new cases until a vaccine is developed. If people don’t want to send their kids to school every second day, that’s a choice they can make with economic consequences.  If people are afraid of going to work, that’s a choice they can make, but the government payouts may shrink and eventually disappear without a demonstrated effort to rejoin the marketplace. Shutting down the workforce for multiple months is probably unsustainable and apocalyptic.  Is it worth it?  Unfortunately we have to choose between bad outcomes and bravely face the consequences.  

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Guest ProudConservative]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Probably temporary detainment at a facility would be enough to frighten people into compliance. We are faced with two impossible roads and must find a better path. A prolonged poorly maintained lockdown gives us a collapsed economy.  Abandoning major public safety measures and allowing everyone to return to activities leads to mass deaths and a public health crisis.  Therefore, we should go to a finite strictly enforced quarantine of 4-6 weeks, complete mass testing, and have a gradual return to smaller group work environments, remaining hyper vigilant about identifying, quarantining, and where necessary, treating new cases until a vaccine is developed. Shutting down the workforce for multiple months is probably unsustainable and apocalyptic.  Is it worth it?  Unfortunately we have to choose between bad outcomes and bravely face the consequences.  

There is a difference between punishing someone who is in self-isolation as a precaution, and punishing someone who's infected and breaks quarantine. What would be the maximum punishment given to someone who willingly puts peoples lives at risk, knowing their infected? I know what my opinion is for someone who would cause a fair risk of having others get infected and killed. Unfortunate I got threats, for stating that opinion.

Edited March 21, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

There is a difference between punishing someone who is in self-isolation as a precaution, and punishing someone who's infected and breaks quarantine. What would be the maximum punishment given to someone who willingly puts peoples lives at risk, knowing their infected?

We can quibble over punishments and I’m sure there will be minimum and maximum extreme consequences, especially for repeat offenders or anyone who knowingly behaves recklessly. The point is, we have to get serious about an almost universal quarantine.  We will also have to maintain vigilance in the provision of essential services, including rationing if necessary. If we do this right we can get out from under the virus sooner and return to a semblance of normal life and a functioning economy.  The time to act is now.  

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Guest ProudConservative]

The biggest thing I didn't like about China, is forcing sick people form there home. Government shouldn't have the right to drag people away from their homes, if they're sick and are self-isolating.

[Guest ProudConservative]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We can quibble over punishments and I’m sure there will be minimum and maximum extreme consequences, especially for repeat offenders or anyone who knowingly behaves recklessly. The point is, we have to get serious about an almost universal quarantine.  We will also have to maintain vigilance in the provision of essential services, including rationing if necessary. If we do this right we can get out from under the virus sooner and return to a semblance of normal life and a functioning economy.  The time to act is now.  

I don't think anything we do or say on this site, is going to cause any influence in the real world. I will say this. I wish you were prime-minister and not Justin Trudeau. When I left for my cottage on March 2nd, Canada had 27 cases. Now it has 1087. That's a 40-fold increase.

Edited March 21, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Iceni warrior]

47 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

What should the punishment be for those who willingly break quarantine when infected, and go out to crowded public areas?

Medical experimements?

[Guest ProudConservative]

5 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

Medical experimements?

You might be offended by my ideas.... Drug Dealers, Child Rapists, and Serial Killers are all put in prison anyways. I see it as a simple exchange. If they take the trial vaccines, they can have their sentence reduced. I would hope the vaccine works, but I wouldn't cry if one of them got sick. i would cry if the first volunteers gave up their lives, to help humanity stop a pandemic.

I don't know why you find that logic offensive, and that people like me should be thrown off helicopters.

No one is forcing the prisoners to take vaccines. they only do it, if they want their sentence reduced.

Edited March 21, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Iceni warrior]

2 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

No I don't want anyone kicked off here... I want you to be reminded, to respect other members of this form. Joking about violence towards them is illegal. I hope Charles is aware of that.

From what I've seen Charles has a perfectly working sense of humour.

[Guest ProudConservative]

1 minute ago, Iceni warrior said:

From what I've seen Charles has a perfectly working sense of humour.

You haven't apologized for your threat. Most websites don't tolerate threats against other members.

[Iceni warrior]

1 minute ago, ProudConservative said:

You might be offended by my ideas.... Drug Dealers, Child Rapists, and Serial Killers are all put in prison anyways. I see it as a simple exchange. If they take the trial vaccines, they can have their sentence reduces. I would hope the vaccine works, but I wouldn't cry if one of them got sick. i would cry if the first volunteers gave up their lives, to help humanity stop a pandemic.

I don't know why you find that logic offensive, and that people like me should be thrown off helicopters.

No one is forcing the prisoners to take vaccines. they only do it, if they want their sentence reduced.

I'd only want you thrown out of a helicopter for littering.

I wouldn't want anyone experimented on medically for any crime. That's Nazi death camp mentality and should be avoided at all costs.

[Iceni warrior]

Just now, ProudConservative said:

You haven't apologized for your threat. Most websites don't tolerate threats against other members.

It wasn't a threat. I don't have a helicopter and live thousands of miles away from you so am incapable of stringing you up from a lamp post even if I had the rope to spare.

Stop being a baby.

[Guest ProudConservative]

Just now, Iceni warrior said:

I'd only want you thrown out of a helicopter for littering.

I wouldn't want anyone experimented on medically for any crime. That's Nazi death camp mentality and should be avoided at all costs.

The way i see if the government pays people $3500 to do vaccine trials. They're experimenting on innocent civilians for next to nothing.

I only suggested we give the prisoners the option, in exchange for a lower sentence. Why do you find that offensive... and not people of are underpaid, to get the first vaccines?

[Guest ProudConservative]

4 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

It wasn't a threat. I don't have a helicopter and live thousands of miles away from you so am incapable of stringing you up from a lamp post even if I had the rope to spare.

Stop being a baby.

Well I was getting several threats from Doug. You didn't have to add yourself to the problem. We're basically a think-tank here. We don't set policy.

I'll insult people for dumb ideas, but I'll never threaten anyone ever for sharing an opinion online, that I don't like.

Edited March 21, 2020 by ProudConservative

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

We've got a proper little Mengele here.

Meh. It's just stupid Omni.

[OftenWrong]

23 hours ago, Argus said:

Well, for one thing, only 1% of people with flue need medical treatment. So far 13% of those who have been diagnosed with the cv19 virus are in hospital.

For another thing this is just getting started. You realize that, right? Flu deaths are kept low by so many people, especially elderly and with health issues getting vaccinated each year. There's no vaccination for this, and Cv19 is more contagious than the regular flu, as well. There are also anti-viral treatments which help people with severe cases of the regular flu. These don't work on cv19. Thus without the extreme measures we're seeing around the world the death toll for cv19 would easily surpass that of the flu.

As a person who works with statistics, I'm well aware that numbers are the devil's playground. I warn all those who put their faith in statistics, beware. These numbers should all be treated with some suspicion. For one thing they are only as good as the governments that report them.

For example, I note that our death count increased to 13 today. A Canadian citizen died, but in another country. This is being added to Canada's death count. Does that mean the country they died in adds to their death count as well? Who knows.

Doesn't even matter, on the whole the magnitude is insignificant. That doesn't mean we should do nothing of course, but we need to provide a proportional response. We need to do things that will work, and in a responsible manner.

People losing their livelihood overnight is but one example. It's inevitable some companies will have close forever. Then there are the people trapped all over the world, as countries suddenly shut their borders and no more flights. Canadians are stranded, imagine it. No place to live, no job. No one taking care of your affairs at home. Within days you could be living under a bridge. Waiting for our government to get their act together, the only hope these people have. Not to even mention... the incredible cost. We are undone.

[Yzermandius19]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think there’s only one option to bury this virus and salvage as much of the economy in the shortest possible timeframe: Extreme total quarantine for 4-6 weeks, including home visit testing and delivery of essential goods such as food and pharmaceuticals.  Only allow leaving the home for people who have masks and gloves.  At the supermarket, grocers, and testing centres maintain extreme social distancing and hygiene, including mandatory minimum distances and protective barriers for employees.  If we maintain this quarantine for at least a month and complete tests for everyone, we can get back to a small-group work and school environment.  That would rescue the economy in the shortest timeframe and prevent much psychological damage, but we need to get started as soon as possible and enforce the measures.  After that, we maintain vigilance about identifying, quarantining, and treating any new cases as we wait for a vaccine.  
 

https://apple.news/AdAI0IqBmQdavcU-Vjv553Q

 

That will not make the virus go away.

[Yzermandius19]

1 hour ago, ProudConservative said:

Well I was getting several threats from Doug. You didn't have to add yourself to the problem. We're basically a think-tank here. We don't set policy.

I'll insult people for dumb ideas, but I'll never threaten anyone ever for sharing an opinion online, that I don't like.

You're such a cry baby. No one threatened you, they just told that if you got the stupid heavy handed government machine you wanted put in place by the Canadian government, you'd be the first victim of it, so be careful what you wish for you counter-productive SIFCLF.

People are simply pointing out, that your idiotic suggestions for improving things actually make things worse for everyone, including yourself. You are just too blinded by panic to understand how counter-productive your foolish suggestions are.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Iceni warrior]

1 hour ago, ProudConservative said:

The way i see if the government pays people $3500 to do vaccine trials. They're experimenting on innocent civilians for next to nothing.

I only suggested we give the prisoners the option, in exchange for a lower sentence. Why do you find that offensive... and not people of are underpaid, to get the first vaccines?

Pretty sure I've explained why it is wrong already Dr Mengele.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Iceni warrior

[Zeitgeist]

19 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

That will not make the virus go away.

Oh well.  You can extend the quarantine to maybe two months. After that the social and economic costs are too high.  Not worth it. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Boges]

The OP on this thread has aged very poorly. 

A 3% death rate is HUGE! 

Italy is seeing hundreds of deaths a day. 

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Oh well

So just wreck the economy because you assume it will work even though it won't? Great plan.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ProudConservative said:

The way i see if the government pays people $3500 to do vaccine trials. They're experimenting on innocent civilians for next to nothing.

I only suggested we give the prisoners the option, in exchange for a lower sentence. Why do you find that offensive... and not people of are underpaid, to get the first vaccines?

Why just prisoners?  I have to say, being pro choice, that I believe anyone should have the option of trying experimental drugs for any condition, if they are given the opportunity.

And I think the opportunity should always be there whenever a volunteer is there.