Panic, Ignorance, Shut Up Already

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We have to make the wisest moves today to minimize suffering.  Anyway, it’s too obvious what’s unfolding and why it’s being mishandled.  People can’t handle the sacrifices.  

Your proposals are not wise, nor do they minimize suffering. It is being mishandled but for the opposite reason that you think it is. People can't handle uncertainty and in desperation makes stupid choices, and that goes double for governments who are pandering to these clowns on top of being incompetent.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s already happened.  We just haven’t seen the ramifications yet.  

The ramifications of shutting down the economy on human life will be several orders of magnitude worse than the ramifications of the virus on human life, and it will be a double whammy, worst of both worlds scenario.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re a fool like many other softies who think they can carry on oblivious.  I think that will be many people and this could take us to a very dark place.  Doesn’t matter whether you like or agree with me.  Reality will illustrate.  

It's like Climate Change.  I always find, in arguments like this, it helps to play this:

 

[betsy]

9 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Shutting down the economy is panicking. It's not preparing, it's not being sensible, it's stalling and engaging in wishful thinking. You thinking that stalling will make the virus magically go away is not supported by any trustworthy data.

It's not the panic-buyers who are shutting down the economy.  lol, if we got panic-buyers at normal times (without this virus), businesses will be doing the happy dance!

The economy is being hit by job losses as a result of businesses closing down or reducing staffs!  Because of self-isolation.

The market has been skydiving, thanks to the endless Trump-bashing by leftist media.  At the time when Trump was trying to downplay and reassure the public  (which I suspect in an effort to try to protect the market - Democrats and their media had stepped up and raised the BOOGEY-cornavirus!)

Edited March 22, 2020 by betsy

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, betsy said:

It's not the panic-buyers who are shutting down the economy.  lol, if we got panic-buyers at normal times (without this virus), businesses will be doing the happy dance!

The economy is being hit by job losses as a result of businesses closing down or reducing staffs!

It's more on the people who are too afraid to go out to panic buy, and the governments who pander to them. The panic buyers aren't the panickers I'm talking about. People buying things is propping up the economy, extreme social distancing, especially the government mandated variety, is destroying it.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Argus]

14 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Same here. Went out for a long walk today and saw many people dong likewise. The park by the lake was crowded, almost. We saw just a few Chinamen wearing masks, and not even all of them. Imagine that. Maybe the average Joe bob is not as dumb as the panic stricken media would like to believe.

Everyone would be wearing masks if masks were available. They're not.

[Zeitgeist]

There’s plenty of food. Don’t panic buy.  Don’t panic.  Stick to the strict public health guidelines, however.  

[betsy]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

It's more on the people who are too afraid to go out to panic buy, and the governments who pander to them. The panic buyers aren't the panickers I'm talking about.

I had to delete - i misread your post.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by betsy

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, betsy said:

Buying would not affect the economy!   Lol.   Why do you think people are given money such as tax breaks during economy crisis?   So, they will spend and buy!

  Buying helps the economy!

 

Methinks that you think I said something very different from what I actually said.

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The ramifications of shutting down the economy on human life will be several orders of magnitude worse than the ramifications of the virus on human life, and it will be a double whammy, worst of both worlds scenario.

It’s all about what will get us back on our feet fastest, participating in the economy.  

[betsy]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Everyone would be wearing masks if masks were available. They're not.

Preppers have them!

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, betsy said:

Preppers have them!

So do amateur DIY types.  I have quite a few.  They all have sawdust and varnish and stuff on them, but they'll do in a pinch.

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s all about what will get us back on our feet fastest, participating in the economy.  

And shutting down the economy doesn't get us back on our feet the fastest, not shutting down the economy on the other hand does get us back on our feet the fastest. Social distancing stretches out the length the problem will endure for, it does not speed it up, flattening the curve means the problem goes on longer because the infections are spread out over time.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[betsy]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

So do amateur DIY types.  I have quite a few.  They all have sawdust and varnish and stuff on them, but they'll do in a pinch.

If you can get hold of JC cloths - you can use them too (double or tripple them).   Or, diy with old clothes, towels - anything is better than nothing.

Edited March 22, 2020 by betsy

[OftenWrong]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

Everyone would be wearing masks if masks were available. They're not.

Knowledgeable people claim they are ineffective. I am not sure if that is right in this day and age, but it's what I've read and heard.

Furthermore, I've only been told by my authorities to do normal things like wash hands regularly and maintain social distancing. Evidence that masks are not needed.

There's already a glimmer on the horizon that people are conceeding this amount of shutdown is not the right kind of response. We'll see how it bends the ongoing virus-virtue as the economy continues to bleed to death by attrition.

[betsy]

7 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Knowledgeable people claim they are ineffective. I am not sure if that is right in this day and age, but it's what I've read and heard.

Furthermore, I've only been told by my authorities to do normal things like wash hands regularly and maintain social distancing. Evidence that masks are not needed.

There's already a glimmer on the horizon that people are conceeding this amount of shutdown is not the right kind of response. We'll see how it bends the ongoing virus-virtue as the economy continues to bleed to death by attrition.

Experts say that masks can still be protective against droplets or sprays (sneezes), and the fact that we're wearing them act as a reminder to not touch our face.  It can possibly be airborne. 

If it is, the virus can hung in the air, too.  And if it's breezy or windy - it can carry far.  But, why take chances?

 

To use that, along with washing hands often, and physical distancing  really makes it hard for coronavirus to get attached to us.

Edited March 22, 2020 by betsy

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, betsy said:

Experts say that masks can still be protective against droplets or sprays (sneezes), and the fact that we're wearing them act as a reminder to not touch our face.

To use that, along with washing hands often, and physical distancing  really makes it hard for coronavirus to get attached to us.

Well I'm no expert, but I do recall from some training that the virus is smaller than the hole size in the mask, so in order to be effective it has to be a certain quality of mask.

But you never know, and it doesn't hurt to wear one. Especially if a person has a precondition such as asthma, they should take every precaution. Many people are not wearing masks though, and it's either because they don't have any, or feel they don't need it and just aren't worried about the virus. Not even worried if they get it.

Went into the town this morning and among the many spectacles was a front lawn with a tub full of young people sitting in it. There was about 12 guys and girls age 20 or so, sitting in an inflatable pool and having a few drinks in the morning sun. People waved to them as they went by. No masks on any of them. Interesting. Social urges trump social distancing.

[betsy]

13 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

So do amateur DIY types.  I have quite a few.  They all have sawdust and varnish and stuff on them, but they'll do in a pinch.

That's what I got - painters' masks.

[betsy]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Went into the town this morning and among the many spectacles was a front lawn with a tub full of young people sitting in it. There was about 12 guys and girls age 20 or so, sitting in an inflatable pool and having a few drinks in the morning sun. People waved to them as they went by. No masks on any of them. Interesting. Social urges trump social distancing.

There's the keyword there.  Look at the students celebrating March break on a beach!  Didn't we all feel invincible at a certain age?

Mind you....it's their parents or, most likely their grandparents, or anyone with underlying conditions  who are vulnerable.  Maybe, a lot of young ones can afford to celebrate and disregard the warning (as long as they don't carry them back to their vulnerable kins).

Edited March 22, 2020 by betsy

[cannuck]

8 minutes ago, betsy said:

Experts say that masks can still be protective against droplets or sprays (sneezes), and the fact that we're wearing them act as a reminder to not touch our face.  It can possibly be airborne. If it is, the virus can hung in the air, too.  And if it's breezy or windy - it can carry far.  But, why take chances?

Ever work in a hazardous environment?   There are masks that can indeed protect one from viral inhalation, but the paper masks hooked over your ears are NOT that mask.   Hazmat masks are FIT TESTED and require a clean shaven face.   Ever wonder why?  When you breathe through a filter, there is a pressure drop across that membrane.   If a mask has any leak at all, the pressure differential across the filter will cause a VERY HIGH flow through that leak.   Paper masks have no such possibility of sealing effectively around the perimeter and the higher velocity of air through those leaks makes them essentially ineffective.   What they ARE good for is reducing transmission from coughs and sneezes of the wearer.    BTW: a decent mask is closer to $100 EACH plus appropriate cartidges (filters).

[betsy]

Just now, cannuck said:

Ever work in a hazardous environment?   There are masks that can indeed protect one from viral inhalation, but the paper masks hooked over your ears are NOT that mask.   Hazmat masks are FIT TESTED and require a clean shaven face.   Ever wonder why?  When you breathe through a filter, there is a pressure drop across that membrane.   If a mask has any leak at all, the pressure differential across the filter will cause a VERY HIGH flow through that leak.   Paper masks have no such possibility of sealing effectively around the perimeter and the higher velocity of air through those leaks makes them essentially ineffective.   What they ARE good for is reducing transmission from coughs and sneezes of the wearer.    BTW: a decent mask is closer to $100 EACH plus appropriate cartidges (filters).

It's better than nothing.   In my case, it's more to remind me not to touch my face. 

[Argus]

11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Well I'm no expert, but I do recall from some training that the virus is smaller than the hole size in the mask, so in order to be effective it has to be a certain quality of mask.

The surgical masks help contain the virus if the person who has it wears one. So if everyone wears one, including people who don't think they have it (but do) it would greatly restrict the spread.

The masks that will help stop YOU from getting the thing are the n95 masks. But they're not perfect, for as you note the virus is very small. The P100s will stop you from getting the disease, and are reusable. For some reason people haven't heard of them as much as they have the n95s, so they were still available long after the n95s ran out and I was able to pick one up a couple of weeks ago.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Argus

[cannuck]

3 minutes ago, betsy said:

It's better than nothing.   In my case, it's more to remind me not to touch my face. 

As I just showed you, it can be WORSE than nothing from an aspiration risk perspective.   Better than nothing for expirational risk and reminder to not touch.   In other words, could be worse for you and better for others.   Best option:  stay isolated.

[betsy]

1 minute ago, cannuck said:

As I just showed you, it can be WORSE than nothing from an aspiration risk perspective.   Better than nothing for expirational risk and reminder to not touch.   In other words, could be worse for you and better for others.   Best option:  stay isolated.

I only go out to do the groceries (and we go at opening times so there are fewer people).  I keep my distance.

[cannuck]

9 minutes ago, betsy said:

I only go out to do the groceries (and we go at opening times so there are fewer people).  I keep my distance.

For mail and deliveries:  We have a reception box at the office, doors locked.  One person collects deliveries a few times a day (signs direct couriers).  I go in only when the place is empty of other people.   At home, we have started to put mail in a cardboard box and leave it in the garage for a day or so.  Deliveries are left in the driveway for first day, then cardboard packaged stuff is unpacked outside.  Plastic wrapped stuff place in back yard and turned daily to allow UV to attack possible contamination for several days.

I wish I had a better way for food.   We can alcohol wash/wife packaged goods, but not sure how to deal effectively with stuff such as produce.   Also don't know what we will do when we run out of isopropyl.   We are fortunate in that eldest daughter got box of nitrile XL gloves for me last week, so at least good for a while on that count.

Edited March 22, 2020 by cannuck