Pipeline protestors need to be jailed

[Zeitgeist]

So where to begin with all the relentless criticism.  Canada has been and is highly functional, exemplary in certain areas.  Our education system, biomedical advances, work in AI, the tech sector in general, natural resource extraction, social policies, social cohesion.  There’s much good to recognize.  Google is investing heavily.  Places like Kitchener-Waterloo are great places to live pretty much on all metrics.  Our cities are always rated near the top in the world for quality of life.  People want to be here and they’re coming by the thousands.  Canada is safer and more accepting than the US, and I believe freer now too.  Nevertheless, this isn’t the time for back-patting.  

The problem with maintaining such an open conciliatory society across a vast country with a limited civil defence is that we have to rely too heavily on trust.  When Trudeau made it open season to slam Canada and lay blame for all that ails ya on every historic misstep and injustice, his government made the country vulnerable.  Yes Canada was a colony, but it was run by absentee landlords who were eventually told not to return.  Through reform rather than revolution, Canada made serious contributions as a strong independent country through two worlds wars.  We could talk about many Canadian inventions and milestones, from insulin to the telephone to hockey and even basketball and football.  The Yanks like to reclaim our success stories as their own and call everyone else commies in la la land.  

Yet we have come through our own crises and challenges, such as separatism and regional disparity. Now it’s the eco warriors vs. resource development and the narrative of the unelected leaders of an undefined area without title.  It’s radical environmentalism meets race-based nationalism, extremists justifying their insurrection with claims like, “We don’t recognize your rule of law because we don’t recognize Canada.”   Of course they have little support, no money, and no expertise on how to run a country or do much of anything, but they are loud, ignorant, and dangerous.  The Liberals have to stop humouring these radicals who will never support any national projects.  Dialogue with these people is inaction, but the government is playing it safe by going slow and talking it out.  That probably won’t solve it, because you can’t reason with these people.

You guys support the shoot ‘em up Manifest Destiny approach, which most Canadians don’t support, but our decency has a shelf life if things get desperate.  We have Canadian approaches, chosen by our people for our people.  I’d like to think that the Yanks respect that, but Canadians will embrace a strong arm approach if these stupid blockades continue.  

A strong Canada is good for everyone, including the Americans.  But you’re right that a severely weakened federal government would create a void that could be filled by other powers and forces that do not represent the prevailing will of the people. 

No more endless apologies and consultations.  Wake up to the realpolitik around you.  The extreme left and radical Indigenous are in the business of extorting money and sabotaging business and government.  It’s a terror and security threat, period.  The Chinese are recreating the world order with their brand of authoritarian capitalism at the centre.  The Americans are trying to shut down competition from our forestry and aerospace industries.  Bombardier is literally selling off its entire airline business because of a bogus trade dispute, but as always, the Yanks will try to tie us up in court and seek unfair privilege.  

The US is basically transitioning to dictatorship-lite.  The Department of Justice is altering sentences at the behest of the dear leader and the Supreme Court is stacked.  As the US tightens its border, Canada is having to clean up the fallout, as we did during the Syrian refugee crisis.  

Yet we can’t blame other countries for our own vulnerabilities.  Our military has been weakened to the point of dysfunction.  Our police are afraid to enforce law.  Their fear of offending has become pathological, based on the Trudeau Doctrine of boundless shame in a post-national state.  

We should be proud of what Canadians have achieved and fight hard to protect it.  

Edited February 17, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

So where to begin with all the relentless criticism. 

 

So basically you are going with the Canadian staple of pointing at the Americans, even when Canada is obviously dysfunctional for this and other issues.

Got it.....

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

So basically you are going with the Canadian staple of pointing at the Americans, even when Canada is obviously dysfunctional for this and other issues.

Got it.....

No I’m not.  I’m saying that the US will act in her interests and Canada better sort out her priorities and fight for them.  It’s hard enough with our best efforts.  

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

No I’m not.  I’m saying that the US will act in her interests and Canada better sort out her priorities and fight for them.  It’s hard enough with our best efforts.  

 

Then why so much of the usual American deflection ?

I just checked...U.S. railroads are running today.

This is a Canadian event...poor government planning and leadership...policies coming home to roost...again.

[Michael Hardner]

On 2/13/2020 at 8:42 PM, ProudConservative said:

In any other country, they would of been arrested immediately. How is it, we can't arrest 15 or 20 people blocking a railroad? Is it illegal to arrest them?

This was pointed out to me elsewhere: Harper did less than Trudeau when there was a rail blockade just over 7 years ago.  "In any other country" ... no, this was Canada and your boy.

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/stephen-harper-accused-of-fostering-racism-hatred-of-natives-with-silence-over-idle-no-more

[Zeitgeist]

19 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Then why so much of the usual American deflection ?

I just checked...U.S. railroads are running today.

This is a Canadian event...poor government planning and leadership...policies coming home to roost...again.

No, your country buried any possibility of Indian opposition in the Indian wars.  As a smaller, more spread out country, we tried to live cooperatively, set up treaties, tried to educate and do what seemed progressive at the time.   Immigrants kept coming, and they didn’t come to Canada to live as the Indigenous did.  They came for an advanced western lifestyle.  So we have an anachronistic reserve system and Indian Act that Indigenous people want to keep, despite the persistence of unsustainable remote communities that are dependent for their existence on outside intervention.  We also have a few successful land claims that cost governments a fortune, especially in B.C., the epicentre of these problems.  Trudeau figured it out too late. Jody Wilson-Raybould worked her way up inside the system, but she always had an agenda.  The Liberals recruited radicals that will be the undoing of the party, hopefully not the country.  Yet the good hair and Trudeau name still carry a lot of weight with the electorate.  Either JT can subdue these threats or he will be crushed beneath them, sooner than later.  

Edited February 17, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No, your country buried any possibility of Indian opposition in the Indian wars.  As a smaller, more spread out country, we tried to live cooperatively, set up treaties, tried to educate and do what seemed progressive at the time.   Immigrants kept coming, and they didn’t come to Canada to live as the Indigenous did.  They came for an advanced western lifestyle.   

 

Sure...residential schools, reserves, scoop babies, sterilizations, "genocide" etc.    How very progressive !

 

Quote

So we have an anachronistic reserve system and Indian Act that Indigenous people want to keep, despite the persistence of unsustainable remote communities that are dependent for their existence on outside intervention.  We also have a few successful land claims that cost governments a fortune, especially in B.C., the epicentre of these problems.  Trudeau figured it out too late.  Jody Wilson-Raybould worked her way up inside the system, but she always had an agenda.  The Liberal recruited radicals that will be the undoing of the party, hopefully not the country.  Yet the good hair and Trudeau name still carry a lot of weight with the electorate.  Either JT can subdue these threats or he will be crushed beneath them, sooner than later.

 

Perfectly expected....of course First nations are going to hold on to and leverage what little power they have been given.

Canada created this mess and now can't figure out how to deal with it for fear of "bad optics".

 

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure...residential schools, reserves, scoop babies, sterilizations, "genocide" etc.    How very progressive !

 

 

Perfectly expected....of course First nations are going to hold on to and leverage what little power they have been given.

Canada created this mess and now can't figure out how to deal with it for fear of "bad optics".

 

Well if it gets desperate the electorate could choose the American way: Cut funding of Indigenous Affaires and end the blockades with tear gas and bullets.  

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well if it gets desperate the electorate could choose the American way: Cut funding of Indigenous Affaires and end the blockades with tear gas and bullets.  

 

Don't worry about the Americans...focus on what Canada can do.

What happened to "peace, order, and good government" ?

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Don't worry about the Americans...focus on what Canada can do.

What happened to "peace, order, and good government" ?

That’s what they’re trying to keep.  

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s what they’re trying to keep.  

 

OK...good luck with that.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

Liberals won for you every right and freedom you enjoy, and they fought against conservatives every step of the way. It's still happening. Gay marriags rights, drug law reform, womens right to safe abortion, all resisted by conservatives.

Conservatives do resist change, until it's shown to be better. That's what you're missing. Liberals rush off after the next bright, shiny thing with few thoughts to the cost or consequences.

12 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

The next one will be the right to assisted suicide. Liberals will win that right too, and they'll be opposed by conservatives.

There are a lot of problems with the idea of assisted suicide, most having to do with the lack of a framework for who can and can't request it. I'm all in favor of the hopelessly terminal, or even those with untreateable physical issues which make their life a living horror of pain and suffering. What I'm not going along with is the steady expansion of who should be allowed to get assisted suicide towards the merely depressed and unhappy.

12 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

Liberal- We can make this better.

Or at least we think so! Maybe not, but we're not stopping to check it out first!

12 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

Conservative- I liked it how it was before.

Because it works.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's just a stupid Fox New's meme that's been beamed into your brain.

Don't watch FOX. Don't like FOX. Mind you, these days I don't like MSNBC either.

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

The problem with conservatives is they don't know or care a damn bit about the environment and ecosystems at the very foundation of the economy and behave as if we can just grow and consume with no end in sight.

Oh spare me. There is a vast difference between caring about a sustainable resource and the environment and running around screaming at the top of your lungs that the world is going to catch fire and we have to turn back to the days of grass huts and caves.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

What's the matter with those idiots, conservatives, is that they can't see an inch beyond what they've been told on any topic. They will fall in lockstep and toes on the line they've been told to toe by whomever they see as the boss.

Riiiight. Which is why the idiot left is on this topic screaming about protecting the environment and natives and arguing in favour of hereditary rule rather than that of elected chiefs and councils, and when producing LNG will probably help to pull countries off coal - and thus actually help the environment.

The left is about fads. Whatever fad comes along the left adopts as holy writ. Whether it be anti-pipelines (which is nuts) or transgender( which is also nuts).

Edited February 17, 2020 by Argus

[Nefarious Banana]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

The same thing its paid for with now, human ingenuity capital and labour....wtf is the matter with you people?

Typical leftwing response . . . .  you don't really understand what drives this country.  Resource industries.  

[Zeitgeist]

My question is, since we’re on the topic of natural gas, a much cleaner energy source than coal or oil, what makes any one group of people in this country so precious as to think that a pipeline conveying an essential service, heat, shouldn’t be allowed to run through their territory?  Same goes for Quebec.  It’s really about ethnic-nationalism, isn’t it?  We pure Quebecers and tribes are above the riff raff who electrify and heat our homes.  Work is for everyone else. 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

This was pointed out to me elsewhere: Harper did less than Trudeau when there was a rail blockade just over 7 years ago.  "In any other country" ... no, this was Canada and your boy.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/stephen-harper-accused-of-fostering-racism-hatred-of-natives-with-silence-over-idle-no-more

Wrong cite.

And that blockade was of a spur line, not a main rail line running through southern central Canada.

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

Oh spare me. There is a vast difference between caring about a sustainable resource and the environment and running around screaming at the top of your lungs that the world is going to catch fire and we have to turn back to the days of grass huts and caves.

Cite? Do you have any evidence of anyone anywhere actually saying we have to start living in grass huts?  What's the difference between you believing that or something like Trudeau is instituting Sharia Law in Canada?  Are you oblivious to how this affects your credibility or do you just not give a shit?

I suspect the difference between how we define caring or sustainable is what's really vast.  I also doubt if you'd be very interested in engaging in a process that tries to narrow those differences so that we can even begin to understand let alone appreciate one another's positions.  Instead you'd rather just let your stupid Limbaugh-esque characterizations of environmentalists along with anything else that isn't overtly right-wing and conservative rule your thinking.

[eyeball]

34 minutes ago, Argus said:

The left is about fads. Whatever fad comes along the left adopts as holy writ. Whether it be anti-pipelines (which is nuts) or transgender( which is also nuts).

And the right is all about mischaracterizing people and associating completely irrelevant issues to avoid talking about the links between our economy and the environment.

[eyeball]

38 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Typical leftwing response . . . .  you don't really understand what drives this country.  Resource industries.  

I was a fisherman and logger for a good 2/3's of my working life.  I suspect I understand the importance of resources more deeply than you can probably even fathom.

What do you do for a living btw?

[Grand Mal]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Riiiight. Which is why the idiot left is on this topic screaming about protecting the environment and natives and arguing in favour of hereditary rule rather than that of elected chiefs and councils, and when producing LNG will probably help to pull countries off coal - and thus actually help the environment.

The left is about fads. Whatever fad comes along the left adopts as holy writ. Whether it be anti-pipelines (which is nuts) or transgender( which is also nuts).

Those nutbars chanting and blocking traffic are no more the left than the nutbars who call themselves 'the Base' are the right. I've been liberal all my life and I say that anyone who is against pipelines needs to Google Lac Megantic. I also say Trudeau left liberal principles behind when he bought a pipeline. That's not what government is for.

There's two issues here. I'm convinced all those young white activists are all about their twist on environmentalism and are just piggy-backing on the Native issue because it gets more attention and makes them feel extra special. The Natives involved, well, that's between them and the government. That is one thing the government should be doing, dealing with whatever is going on there.

And no, that's not a leftist thing. For all you know those protesting Natives are a solid bloc of conservatism.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Grand Mal
Spelling

[Nefarious Banana]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I was a fisherman and logger for a good 2/3's of my working life.  I suspect I understand the importance of resources more deeply than you can probably even fathom.

What do you do for a living btw?

Logger  . . . 43 years.  'I suspect' you didn't learn much.

[Grand Mal]

4 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Logger  . . . 43 years.  'I suspect' you didn't learn much.

 

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I was a fisherman and logger for a good 2/3's of my working life.  I suspect I understand the importance of resources more deeply than you can probably even fathom.

What do you do for a living btw?

Just curious, did you put the words 'deeply' and 'fathom' in that sentence on purpose? Cause it's a nice subtlety if you did.

[Dougie93]

At the end of the day a blockade is an act of war. 

The Mohawks claim they have a "right" to blockade, but that would be invoking UN Article 51, which is fair enough, but to invoke that is to invoke war.

The problem for Canada is quite simply that Canada has dismantled its own army to the point that it cannot respond effectively to a widespread blockading operation.

Thus, even if the army is called in, it's not going to do anything more than what the OPP is doing.

Like, at Oka, it was a stalemate, we had to wait them out, and it took all summer before they gave up.

So even if Canada were want to take a hard line with this sort of disruption at some point, they simply don't have enough boots to put on the ground to do it.

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You guys support the shoot ‘em up Manifest Destiny approach, which most Canadians don’t support, but our decency has a shelf life if things get desperate.  We have Canadian approaches, chosen by our people for our people.  I’d like to think that the Yanks respect that, but Canadians will embrace a strong arm approach if these stupid blockades continue.  

 

Well certainly Americans are skeptical of central government cracking down from Federal City and they tend to side with the rebels against the British Crown.

America is not calling for the Indians to be overrun, America is calling for the Indians to take what is rightfully theirs from the British imperial zombie legacy project.

If they try that shit in America, they'll probably have to be shot, but they have America's blessing to go to war against the Queen, implicitly.