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Trudeau/Bill Blair . . . . gun control.


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Guest ProudConservative
4 minutes ago, Argus said:

Do you imagine people of other political persuasions don't want to save lives or want strong communities?

Conservatives do not approve of government overreach. They believe in the rights of the individual, including property rights, and that those rights should only be restricted by government for a demonstrated need. There is no demonstrated need here because there is no evidence banning guns would make the slightest difference to the gang members shooting each other down in the streets.

Figure a way to chop up the border and sail us off to sea, then. Otherwise, that's not happening.

 

I don't mind a little benign Tyrany once in a while.

I rather demonize gun ownership than.... watering stuff down to appease the conspiracy types.

Gun violence is getting so bad in toronto right now.... I'm ready to accept random searches from the police, roadblocks and checkpoints to confiscate weapons.

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Just now, ProudConservative said:

I don't mind a little benign Tyrany once in a while.

I rather demonize gun ownership than.... watering stuff down to appease the conspiracy types

I have no idea what conspiracy you're talking about. As long as guns continue to flow across the border largely unimpeded, the vast majority of gun crimes will be committed by those guns. Banning some "Saskatchewan farmer" from having his shotgun is not going to matter a damned. Even if you slightly reduce the number of 'legal' guns getting into the hands of criminals it will make no difference as they can simply increase the supply from the US.

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Guest ProudConservative
2 minutes ago, Argus said:

I have no idea what conspiracy you're talking about. As long as guns continue to flow across the border largely unimpeded, the vast majority of gun crimes will be committed by those guns. Banning some "Saskatchewan farmer" from having his shotgun is not going to matter a damned. Even if you slightly reduce the number of 'legal' guns getting into the hands of criminals it will make no difference as they can simply increase the supply from the US.

It's the conspiracy have the NRA members believe, or been told repeatedly.... That we need to sell as many guns as possible.... to prevent the government from opening concentration camps, and killing their citizens.

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Guest ProudConservative
6 minutes ago, Argus said:

I have no idea what conspiracy you're talking about. As long as guns continue to flow across the border largely unimpeded, the vast majority of gun crimes will be committed by those guns. Banning some "Saskatchewan farmer" from having his shotgun is not going to matter a damned. Even if you slightly reduce the number of 'legal' guns getting into the hands of criminals it will make no difference as they can simply increase the supply from the US.

I would tell the Saskatchean farmer to find a new hobby... It sends the wrong message.

It's like only the rural white people can be trusted with guns... but lets take the guns from the third world immigrants in the cities.

Gun ownership sets a bad example.

I think it's time to become like Japan.... our country will be far better off, and in 5 or 10 years... no one will miss the guns.

Edited by ProudConservative
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Just now, ProudConservative said:

It's the conspiracy have the NRA members believe, or been told repeatedly.... That we need to sell as many guns as possible.... to prevent the government from opening concentration camps, and killing their citizens.

Well, okay. That's stupid, and I don't buy it either. But it's irrelevant to the point under discussion here. Let me put it another way. You have a front door and a back door. Well, except there's no door on the back door. Your front door already has a lock and a deadbolt, and a chain. People keep wandering into your house, though - through the back door. Virtually no one gets in through the front.

What you want to do is replace the front door, at great cost, with a steel door, while ignoring the open back door.

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1 minute ago, ProudConservative said:

I would tell the Saskatchean farmer to find a new hobby... It sends the wrong message.

It's like only the rural white people can be trusted with guns... but lets take the guns from the third world immigrants in the cities.

Gun ownership sets a bad example.

I can't recall the last time Saskatchewan farmers engaged in a drive-by shooting. You might also take into account there are wild animals out there that might want to kill the farmer's dog and cat and sheep and chickens. And the farmer, for that matter. Also, if some criminal arrives and he calls 911 it could take the police an hour to get there.

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Guest ProudConservative
7 minutes ago, Argus said:

Well, okay. That's stupid, and I don't buy it either. But it's irrelevant to the point under discussion here. Let me put it another way. You have a front door and a back door. Well, except there's no door on the back door. Your front door already has a lock and a deadbolt, and a chain. People keep wandering into your house, though - through the back door. Virtually no one gets in through the front.

What you want to do is replace the front door, at great cost, with a steel door, while ignoring the open back door.

Do you pay attention to the conservative pundents in the United States? Once of the first things their taught, is that you need the second admendment... to prevent the government from going tyranical... and they think it's more important than stopping the school shootings.

It's complete nonsense... I'm more worried about getting hit by a stray bullet... Than Canada opening concentration camps any time soon. If we won't get ahead of tise, pretty soon will have mass shootings in our schools, just like in the USA.

I also thing there is a higher chance of having a civil war.... if half the citizens start taking up firearms... So more guns makes us less safe.

 

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1 minute ago, ProudConservative said:

Do you pay attention to the conservative pundents in the United States?

No. Most of them are idiots. Most of them aren't actually conservative either.

And it's irrelevant. We're not talking about the idiocy of American gun laws. I'm more than willing to agree they're idiotic. However, they don't seem likely to change, which means the US is going to continue to be overflowing with every kind of gun imaginable. Which in turn means Canada has no way of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. without some really, really tough border enforcement, which no political party has shown any enthusiasm for.

 

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2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You're defending people who go target shooting with human killing machines.   You sympathize with them.  When people are dying in our communities, nobody should care what target shooters and gun collectors think.

The ones who value the personal liberty of owning guns over the lives of people being mowed down by them.

Actually I'm up there with the liberal Americans who think gun control, including background checks and waiting periods and magazine limits and bumpstock bans are a good idea.

But I'm probably also up there with conservative Americans who think treating criminals properly will help much more than treating non-criminals unfairly.

You can still stick your sympathy.

Edited by bcsapper
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42 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't think the majority of Canadians want them to be even cultural.  On gun control I'm happy to see Canada characterized as "nanny Eskimo-commie snowflake" or whatever lefty moniker you like.  Don't care, don't want the guns...

 

Doesn't matter....firearms are very much cultural in Canada.    Start with that reality, instead of what's happening "south of the border".

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Guest ProudConservative

I think most Canadian conservatives are leaning more Left than Right, when it comes to having strict gun laws. We don't want gun culture taking hold in Canada. I even listen to Michelle rempel, and while shes trying to protect rural gun owners.... Even she wants to crackdown on Canadian gun culture.

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Guest ProudConservative
2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Doesn't matter....firearms are very much cultural in Canada.    Start with that reality, instead of what's happening "south of the border".

Well what's happening if you guys are getting our citizens killed... because you down control you're own industries. Maybe Canada should invoice you for every illegal fatality, you end up causing.

You wanna know why America isn't respected around the world... Look in the Mirror.

We use to Respect America, but not any more.

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13 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

Well what's happening if you guys are getting our citizens killed... because you down control you're own industries. Maybe Canada should invoice you for every illegal fatality, you end up causing.

You wanna know why America isn't respected around the world... Look in the Mirror.

We use to Respect America, but not any more.

 

Still doesn't matter...whining about America does nothing to stem gun ownership (cultural) and violence in Canada.

More per capita gun homicides in Toronto now than in New York City.

You can't stop the guns, and we can't stop all the illegal drugs from Canada.

Respect that....

 

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Guest ProudConservative
44 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Still doesn't matter...whining about America does nothing to stem gun ownership (cultural) and violence in Canada.

More per capita gun homicides in Toronto now than in New York City.

You can't stop the guns, and we can't stop all the illegal drugs from Canada.

Respect that....

 

You got a good point. It's because Canadian liberals import the third world trash into Toronto, without proper background check.

I just want Canadian conservatives to be anti gun.

They barely show photos of the suspects now, out of fear of racism.

Toronto is 9% African, but about 90% of the gun deaths in Toronto seem to be from Africans.

 

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2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Actually I'm up there with the liberal Americans who think gun control, including background checks and waiting periods and magazine limits and bumpstock bans are a good idea.

But I'm probably also up there with conservative Americans who think treating criminals properly will help much more than treating non-criminals unfairly.

You can still stick your sympathy.

I don;t actually think gun bans in Canada will do a ton, since it will just go underground for the criminals who use them as it already is.

My point is just that I don't really put much priority on the rights of recreational shooters, same with the rights of tobacco and drug users.  These are all dumb hobbies.

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Just now, Moonlight Graham said:

I don;t actually think gun bans in Canada will do a ton, since it will just go underground for the criminals who use them as it already is.

My point is just that I don't really put much priority on the rights of recreational shooters, same with the rights of tobacco and drug users.  These are all dumb hobbies.

Ah, personal views.  Fair enough, we all have them.  I agree with your first sentence, and as my personal view of target shooting is that it is not a dumb hobbie, I'm happy to keep the handguns in the hands of people who use them responsibly.

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On 12/12/2019 at 1:18 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

We don't live in Nietzsche-land or Nazi Germany or a post-apocalyptic Mad Max-style free-for-all.  You should move to Somalia or El Salvador.

We don't?   I guess you are not familiar with the story of Andy McMechand and the Canadian Wheat Board.   When doing, as proven in federal court, NOTHING against any law whatsoever, the Fed's jailed him because he drove off in his tractor/trailer when they attempted to seize it - for a crime that did not exist.

The problem in Canada is NOT "gun control", it is illegal weapons being used in the commission of criminal acts.  Registering, restricting, confiscating, etc. all of the legal guns in the world won't make any significant difference in gun crimes.   Throughout this thread, people have posted that the problem lies within immigration.   That might well be the case.   Since Toronto considers itself the center of the Universe, and for immigration reasons it might well be, take a look at those most wanted criminals:   http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/homicide/mostwanted.php

I think you could EASILY see the connection between crime in Toronto vs. the profile of immigrants who flock to those ghettos (and I mean that in the literal sense of the word, not that all are financially distressed neighbourhoods).  It is also easy to see that the 416 and ESPECIALLY the 905 is not only the root of our immigration and crime problems, it is the source of much of the Liberal/liberal elitist political BS.   The real solution to most of Canada's problems seems to be to cut out Toronto.

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On 2/2/2020 at 2:02 PM, Zeitgeist said:

I'm sympathetic to the rural hunters and farmers who need/want rifles.  I don't think the government has any business messing with people's livelihoods and traditions that are live and well in many parts of the country.  That Canada is far removed from what's happening in the inner city where guns that have one purpose, killing people, are getting into the hands of dangerous and ignorant people, many of whom don't have a stake in the place where they're carrying these firearms because they're just passing through.  Due to racist incidents involving overuse of police force against minorities, especially in the US, police can no longer card or pull people over with out a very substantive reason.  There are good and bad things about this.  Yes there is probably less misuse of power to harm minorities, but there is also less opportunity to do the kind of proactive policing that cut the rates of homicides in certain New York and Kansas City neighborhoods (read Gladwell's Talking to Strangers).  Basically the police's hands are somewhat tied, so what do we have left? 

I know you believe that rampant, uncontrolled immigration has contributed to the problem as ghettoes form, transience increases, socio-economic problems related to unemployment and poverty, cultural tensions, etc. play a major role.  I'm sure it does play a role, but as has been mentioned before, immigration is many things.  It can bring skilled workers and it does increase the consumer market and create the economy of scale that can make services more viable.  It can also be a drain on services if immigrants are unskilled or lack motivation.  It can raise the cost of living to unaffordable levels when supply can't keep up with demand (e.g. housing costs).  I wouldn't lay the rise in gun violence solely at the feet of immigration.

It has been said that many guns are coming across the border illegally.  I'm sure that's true, and we can try to crack down on that.  We can try.  One area though where we do have control is on the legal sale of firearms: the screening and types of firearms that can be legally imported and sold in Canada.  There is no compelling reason to continue to allow the private civilian ownership of handguns, not when weighed against the social costs of having a steady production/importation of handguns in Canada that may end up in the wrong hands.  The hunters and farmers can continue to do their thing.  I'm talking about handguns and any rifles meant for killing many people (assault rifles).

What is a rifle, and what are it's characteristics, is it bolt action, lever action, is it magazine feed, or internal magazine, or does it just have to look like a assault rifle ? what is an assault rifle  ? it's looks or because it fires semi auto....because a lot of hunting rifles are semi auto....besides full auto is illegal here in Canada unless you have a special permit, to which I don't think they issue any more......Don't bother looking for the government to describe what makes a rifle a assault rifle because they say they don't know. so without a clear concise definition what do we ban and what can we keep...

Next, all magazines in Canada are pinned to only hold 5 rounds....by law, in effect making all wpns capable of only holding 5 rds, with 2 exceptions one being the M-1 Garand which holds 8 rds, the other i'm not sure what it is called....

Most deaths by fire arms are by suicide, and it would not matter if they were full auto or not, it only takes one bullet... 

All fire arms are designed to do one thing kill, be it humans or wild life....they are no more dangerous than your car, or the driver....

Not sure why your so afraid of fire arms , be it pistols or rifles, and your not afraid of drunk drivers, tobacco, shit more drivers are killed because of cell phone distractions than all deaths with a fire arm....But alcohol is very popular, ban it has already been tried, and failed, the country would be tossed into one massive riot if we banned alcohol. but we need something to jump on lets pick fire arms....  

CIHI data show that in 2017-2018, there were 249 alcohol-related hospitalizations in Canada every day per 100,000 people, up from 241 hospitalizations in 2015-2016.

.https://globalnews.ca/news/5386829/alcohol-deaths-hospital-study/

hIn 2014, road crashes claimed an estimated 2,297 lives. Based on testing of fatally-injured drivers, it may be estimated that 1,273 (55.4%) of these deaths resulted from crashes in which an individual was positive for alcohol and/or drugs

https://madd.ca/pages/impaired-driving/overview/statistics/

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On 2/2/2020 at 8:59 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

I don;t actually think gun bans in Canada will do a ton, since it will just go underground for the criminals who use them as it already is.

My point is just that I don't really put much priority on the rights of recreational shooters, same with the rights of tobacco and drug users.  These are all dumb hobbies.

Who gets to make that decision what is dumb or not, the majority ….and what are it's criteria for a ban ? I personal think snowmobiling is dumb, and yet  more Canadians are killed on these machines than firearms, every year  .........

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23 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Who gets to make that decision what is dumb or not, the majority ….and what are it's criteria for a ban ? I personal think snowmobiling is dumb, and yet  more Canadians are killed on these machines than firearms, every year  .........

Well, snowmobile deaths typically kill the rider far, far more than innocent bystanders.  I think you have the right to do risky behaviour if by far the biggest risk is to yourself.

Recreational use and ownership of machines designed to kill other humans just has a very low priority for me.  If you hunt, ok fine no problem.  If you want to shoot off an assault weapon because it's fun?  There's no reason why we shouldn't have laws and regulations regarding that behaviour.  These aren't toys.

But as I said, I don't think the legal use and ownership of these weapons is a big enough problem to start banning them.  Criminals will get them no matter what

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

What is a rifle, and what are it's characteristics, is it bolt action, lever action, is it magazine feed, or internal magazine, or does it just have to look like a assault rifle ? what is an assault rifle  ? it's looks or because it fires semi auto....because a lot of hunting rifles are semi auto....besides full auto is illegal here in Canada unless you have a special permit, to which I don't think they issue any more......Don't bother looking for the government to describe what makes a rifle a assault rifle because they say they don't know. so without a clear concise definition what do we ban and what can we keep...

Next, all magazines in Canada are pinned to only hold 5 rounds....by law, in effect making all wpns capable of only holding 5 rds, with 2 exceptions one being the M-1 Garand which holds 8 rds, the other i'm not sure what it is called....

Most deaths by fire arms are by suicide, and it would not matter if they were full auto or not, it only takes one bullet... 

All fire arms are designed to do one thing kill, be it humans or wild life....they are no more dangerous than your car, or the driver....

Not sure why your so afraid of fire arms , be it pistols or rifles, and your not afraid of drunk drivers, tobacco, shit more drivers are killed because of cell phone distractions than all deaths with a fire arm....But alcohol is very popular, ban it has already been tried, and failed, the country would be tossed into one massive riot if we banned alcohol. but we need something to jump on lets pick fire arms....  

CIHI data show that in 2017-2018, there were 249 alcohol-related hospitalizations in Canada every day per 100,000 people, up from 241 hospitalizations in 2015-2016.

.https://globalnews.ca/news/5386829/alcohol-deaths-hospital-study/

hIn 2014, road crashes claimed an estimated 2,297 lives. Based on testing of fatally-injured drivers, it may be estimated that 1,273 (55.4%) of these deaths resulted from crashes in which an individual was positive for alcohol and/or drugs

https://madd.ca/pages/impaired-driving/overview/statistics/

Well, going forward semi-automatics should be banned.   Not necessary for hunting.  People who already have the permits can keep them   Grandfather it out and offer a modest buy-back

Banning alcohol is almost like banning food.  Imagine not allowing Italians to have wine with pasta.  Also, working stiffs like us need some kind of escape to prevent us from completely losing our shit.  Ban it and you get other problems.  Going to the gym isn’t enough.  Organized crime flourished under Prohibition.  

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27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well, going forward semi-automatics should be banned.   Not necessary for hunting.  People who already have the permits can keep them   Grandfather it out and offer a modest buy-back

Banning alcohol is almost like banning food.  Imagine not allowing Italians to have wine with pasta.  Also, working stiffs like us need some kind of escape to prevent us from completely losing our shit.  Ban it and you get other problems.  Going to the gym isn’t enough.  Organized crime flourished under Prohibition.  

Don't want to put words in your mouth but that leaves only bolt action rifles that your good with like the old lee enfield, . shot guns I'm assuming , no semi autos just single shot, 

So your good with not banning Alcohol , even know it kills more people than fire arms,  and because you like it it's OK, once again I don't want to put words in your mouth, but one of your reason you have used in the past was a) fire arms are designed to kill people/ wild life. and people die from them....but so does Alcohol, distracted drivers on cell phones, but those don't count because you like them, what is the reason you want them banned, it can't be death can it ?  and Organized crime are the majority of users of illegal wpns be it illegal obtained through the US , or stolen they seem to be the ones flourishing with illegal wpns…. so that can't be a good reason still trying to figure out why ? 

 

 

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Guest ProudConservative
7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Don't want to put words in your mouth but that leaves only bolt action rifles that your good with like the old lee enfield, . shot guns I'm assuming , no semi autos just single shot, 

So your good with not banning Alcohol , even know it kills more people than fire arms,  and because you like it it's OK, once again I don't want to put words in your mouth, but one of your reason you have used in the past was a) fire arms are designed to kill people/ wild life. and people die from them....but so does Alcohol, distracted drivers on cell phones, but those don't count because you like them, what is the reason you want them banned, it can't be death can it ?  and Organized crime are the majority of users of illegal wpns be it illegal obtained through the US , or stolen they seem to be the ones flourishing with illegal wpns…. so that can't be a good reason still trying to figure out why ? 

 

 

We don't want to support gun culture. When you ban the guns, you ban the culture. I would make an exception though. If you served in the military you should have less restritions on firmarms.

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