Trudeau/Bill Blair . . . . gun control.

[Guest ProudConservative]

It's also an addiction... Like, part of me.... just wanna go to a range, to fire a few bullets than come home.... The only thing stopping me, is I don't want to waste $100.

But If I lived in America... I could why they wanna go outside after a few beers, and fire some bullets into the beer bottles...

You shoot them once, you will wanna shoot them all the time.

I guess i'm a hyprocrite, because some day... i'm gonna go to a range and shoot some bullets... I just don't wanna waste the money right now. If Canada allows gun culture to take shape, we're done.... Especially with all the third world gangs in our cities now.

It's not the time, to start listening to conservative properganda... Let's take away the guns while we still can.

The first thing the NRA tells you... you need to own a firearm to fight a government, if they become tyrannical.... Such BS... Just to sell weapons...

My government is corrupt, but i'm not worried about the convervatives or liberals starting concentration camps any time soon... I am worried about getting hit by a stray bullet in Toronto.

I don't want hunting culture eithar, because I like going deep into the forest, and not have to worry about getting shot. In northern Ontario people don't respect hunting season, they hunt whenever they want.

Edited February 2, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You sounds like an American.

When your toys are human killing machines I have no sympathy for you when people are dying.  I suggest they take up racket ball.

Have a guess how much sympathy I asked for.

There are a lot of Americans.  Which ones do I sound like?

Edited February 2, 2020 by bcsapper

[Argus]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Ask yourself why is this becoming such a problem now when it wasn't so much before?  What has changed?

More third world types coming in with no skills, living in poverty, breeding kids who grow up in poverty. You've seen the videos of the gang bangers. You know they're not Dutch.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

I stand with the liberals on this one. I don't want American style "Gun Freedom" coming to Canada. Too many little thugz running around Toronto these day's popin one another. If it means some farmers from Saskcathewan have to fill out some papers, well so be it.

Well then, why don't you suggest everyone be required to wear pink hats. Perhaps that might have an impact on the gun violence in Toronto.

It won't cost hundreds of millions of dollars, and will have almost exactly the same impact on the shootings in Toronto.

12 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

I don't need some rural conservative hick lecturing me about... liberal tyrany, when they have no idea what does on in our inner cities.

Evidently YOU have no idea what it does in our inner cities either. In fact, if it were up to those conservative hicks we wouldn't have anything called an 'inner city'. We didn't when I was growing up. Violent slums in Canada is a liberal creation, brought about through the indiscriminate importation of masses of unskilled, uneducated people from the third world.

[Argus]

11 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

Please take your paranoid delusions somewhere else. Almost none one in Japan is allowed to own a firearm, and they're getting along just fine.

I expect it hasn't occurred to you that Japan is an island, and that the nearest other countries are dictatorships where firearms aren't allowed.

11 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

If you wanna be a conservative, focus on the taxpayer being ripped off, and overspending.

How about if you want to be a conservative you don't support a government program which will cost many hundreds of millions of dollars and accomplish absolutely nothing?

[Argus]

10 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

People are more stressed out than ever. 

Don't know much about history, do you?

[Argus]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You sounds like an American.

When your toys are human killing machines I have no sympathy for you when people are dying.  I suggest they take up racket ball.

But their toys aren't killing people. Perhaps that's the point you're ignoring. How many people die from alcohol? Helluva lot more than from guns, especially the legal, registered ones. How many die from smoking? How many die from any number of preventable reasons we don't ban?

[Argus]

4 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

I'm for full scale gun confiscation. No one needs a gun. If you want to hunt, you can have a single shot rifle.... Even then... we don't need to hunt, because it's reducing the animal population.

I'm going to take a guess that "Proudconservative" is actually meant to be ironic.

[Zeitgeist]

34 minutes ago, Argus said:

But their toys aren't killing people. Perhaps that's the point you're ignoring. How many people die from alcohol? Helluva lot more than from guns, especially the legal, registered ones. How many die from smoking? How many die from any number of preventable reasons we don't ban?

I'm sympathetic to the rural hunters and farmers who need/want rifles.  I don't think the government has any business messing with people's livelihoods and traditions that are live and well in many parts of the country.  That Canada is far removed from what's happening in the inner city where guns that have one purpose, killing people, are getting into the hands of dangerous and ignorant people, many of whom don't have a stake in the place where they're carrying these firearms because they're just passing through.  Due to racist incidents involving overuse of police force against minorities, especially in the US, police can no longer card or pull people over with out a very substantive reason.  There are good and bad things about this.  Yes there is probably less misuse of power to harm minorities, but there is also less opportunity to do the kind of proactive policing that cut the rates of homicides in certain New York and Kansas City neighborhoods (read Gladwell's Talking to Strangers).  Basically the police's hands are somewhat tied, so what do we have left? 

I know you believe that rampant, uncontrolled immigration has contributed to the problem as ghettoes form, transience increases, socio-economic problems related to unemployment and poverty, cultural tensions, etc. play a major role.  I'm sure it does play a role, but as has been mentioned before, immigration is many things.  It can bring skilled workers and it does increase the consumer market and create the economy of scale that can make services more viable.  It can also be a drain on services if immigrants are unskilled or lack motivation.  It can raise the cost of living to unaffordable levels when supply can't keep up with demand (e.g. housing costs).  I wouldn't lay the rise in gun violence solely at the feet of immigration.

It has been said that many guns are coming across the border illegally.  I'm sure that's true, and we can try to crack down on that.  We can try.  One area though where we do have control is on the legal sale of firearms: the screening and types of firearms that can be legally imported and sold in Canada.  There is no compelling reason to continue to allow the private civilian ownership of handguns, not when weighed against the social costs of having a steady production/importation of handguns in Canada that may end up in the wrong hands.  The hunters and farmers can continue to do their thing.  I'm talking about handguns and any rifles meant for killing many people (assault rifles).

Edited February 2, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Argus]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It has been said that many guns are coming across the border illegally. 

By police. And not many, most.

Quote

I'm sure that's true, and we can try to crack down on that.  We can try. 

But we're not. That takes time and effort and you have to target the cross-border reserves, which is politically unpalatable. Nor can we even impose strong penalties on those who smuggle, sell, posses or even use guns illegally. The courts won't allow it. If we pass such laws the courts will ignore them. If we make strong penalties mandatory, the courts will decide that's unconstitutional. This is not a theory, by the way. They have already done so. The courts do not consider the smuggling, sale, possession or use of firearms to be a particularly bad or dangerous thing.

Unsurprisingly, the judges of those courts universally live in very nice neighborhoods without street gangs.

Quote

One area though where we do have control is on the legal sale of firearms: the screening and types of firearms that can be legally imported and sold in Canada.  There is no compelling reason to continue to allow the legal private civilian ownership of handguns,

There is no compelling reason to continue to allow the private ownership of all sorts of things. But neither is there a compelling reason to forbid it. Certainly the shootouts between street gangs and drug dealers is no reasons, as none of them have legal handguns nor are allowed to possess handguns. Perhaps 10% or even 20% of the guns they use comes from guns stolen from legal owners. Okay. So if that dries up what happens? The gun dealers simply bring more across the border. I mean, it's not like the supply is limited.

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Argus

[Zeitgeist]

20 minutes ago, Argus said:

By police. And not many, most.

But we're not. That takes time and effort and you have to target the cross-border reserves, which is politically unpalatable. Nor can we even impose strong penalties on those who smuggle, sell, posses or even use guns illegally. The courts won't allow it. If we pass such laws the courts will ignore them. If we make strong penalties mandatory, the courts will decide that's unconstitutional. This is not a theory, by the way. They have already done so. The courts do not consider the smuggling, sale, possession or use of firearms to be a particularly bad or dangerous thing.

Unsurprisingly, the judges of those courts universally live in very nice neighborhoods without street gangs.

There is no compelling reason to continue to allow the private ownership of all sorts of things. But neither is there a compelling reason to forbid it. Certainly the shootouts between street gangs and drug dealers is no reasons, as none of them have legal handguns nor are allowed to possess handguns. Perhaps 10% or even 20% of the guns they use comes from guns stolen from legal owners. Okay. So if that dries up what happens? The gun dealers simply bring more across the border. I mean, it's not like the supply is limited.

 

I don't disagree, but we don't have many tools left at our disposal.  Cutting the supply of handguns should help, as well as increasing penalties for illegal possession/use of firearms and cracking down on smuggling.  Where we have some control we should exercise it.  On immigration, I agree that we need to be more selective and ensure that we aren't importing or creating tensions, cultural or otherwise.  I also think there's a lot to be said for good community policing and supports.  On the conservative side we have penalties. On the liberal side we have supports.  Both are needed.  When people see that there are better things to do with their time than hanging around with gangbangers and getting in trouble, they'll probably choose the better options/opportunities, if they're available.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't disagree, but we don't have many tools left at our disposal.  Cutting the supply of handguns should help, as well as increasing penalties for illegal possession/use of firearms and cracking down on smuggling.  Where we have some control we should exercise it.  On immigration, I agree that we need to be more selective and ensure that we aren't importing or creating tensions, cultural or otherwise.  I also think there's a lot to be said for good community policing and supports.  On the conservative side we have penalties. On the liberal side we have supports.  Both are needed.  When people see that there are better things to do with their time than hanging around with gangbangers and getting in trouble, they'll probably choose the better options/opportunities, if they're available.

Yes, but we probably aren't going to increase penalties for illegal possession/use of firearms or crack down on smuggling.  Not politically expedient.  Same with being more selective on immigration so we aren't importing or creating tensions, cultural or otherwise.  The horror!  The very idea!

As for coming up with better things to do with a potential gangbangers time than hanging around and getting in to trouble, I suggest target shooting.  It gets rid of a lot of the frustrations built up in the working day, and also reduces any fascination with firearms one might have.

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yes, but we probably aren't going to increase penalties for illegal possession/use of firearms or crack down on smuggling.  Not politically expedient.  Same with being more selective on immigration so we aren't importing or creating tensions, cultural or otherwise.  The horror!  The very idea!

As for coming up with better things to do with a potential gangbangers time than hanging around and getting in to trouble, I suggest target shooting.  It gets rid of a lot of the frustrations built up in the working day, and also reduces any fascination with firearms one might have.

Ha ha.  If it's in a controlled setting and the firearms stay under lock and key at the facility, sure.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Ha ha.  If it's in a controlled setting and the firearms stay under lock and key at the facility, sure.

Until they can be trusted, sure.

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Have a guess how much sympathy I asked for.

You're defending people who go target shooting with human killing machines.   You sympathize with them.  When people are dying in our communities, nobody should care what target shooters and gun collectors think.

Quote

There are a lot of Americans.  Which ones do I sound like?

The ones who value the personal liberty of owning guns over the lives of people being mowed down by them.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't disagree, but we don't have many tools left at our disposal.  Cutting the supply of handguns should help,

And my point is that this would NOT cut the supply of hand guns. The supply is infinite. Spending a billion odd dollars on this is a waste of time and money and the criminals who want guns will continue to buy them off the criminals who bring them across the border. They'll just bring more across.

Quote

as well as increasing penalties for illegal possession/use of firearms and cracking down on smuggling. 

I certainly agree with that, but we really don't have any say in the matter. The judges have said no to increasing penalties so that's that. They're in charge and they don't care what you or I or the rest of Canadians think or want.

Quote

Where we have some control we should exercise it.  On immigration, I agree that we need to be more selective and ensure that we aren't importing or creating tensions, cultural or otherwise.  I also think there's a lot to be said for good community policing and supports.  On the conservative side we have penalties. On the liberal side we have supports.  Both are needed.  When people see that there are better things to do with their time than hanging around with gangbangers and getting in trouble, they'll probably choose the better options/opportunities, if they're available.

There have always been better. We have a booming economy and low unemployment. But for a certain mindset it's just easier to hang around with their buds, rob people, sell drugs, and fight it out with other gangs then doing some boring drudgery of a job.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Argus

[Argus]

49 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You're defending people who go target shooting with human killing machines.   You sympathize with them.  When people are dying in our communities, nobody should care what target shooters and gun collectors think.

Being dramatic really does nothing to make your case unless you can state that banning these guns will somehow stop people from 'dying in our communities'. I invite you to try and make such a case.

49 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The ones who value the personal liberty of owning guns over the lives of people being mowed down by them.

It's not an either-or. Banning guns from law-abiding people is not going to affect 'people being mowed down' by criminals with guns.  If you can't figure a way to keep the guns out of the hands of people who  are already defying multiple existing laws then why add a new one?

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I'm sympathetic to the rural hunters and farmers who need/want rifles.  I don't think the government has any business messing with people's livelihoods and traditions that are live and well in many parts of the country.  That Canada is far removed from what's happening in the inner city where guns that have one purpose, killing people, are getting into the hands of dangerous and ignorant people, many of whom don't have a stake in the place where they're carrying these firearms because they're just passing through.  Due to racist incidents involving overuse of police force against minorities, especially in the US, police can no longer card or pull people over with out a very substantive reason.  There are good and bad things about this.  Yes there is probably less misuse of power to harm minorities, but there is also less opportunity to do the kind of proactive policing that cut the rates of homicides in certain New York and Kansas City neighborhoods (read Gladwell's Talking to Strangers).  Basically the police's hands are somewhat tied, so what do we have left?

 

As long as you are stuck on the foreign (American) police and gun control narrative, you will get foreign (American) results. 

[Zeitgeist]

26 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

As long as you are stuck on the foreign (American) police and gun control narrative, you will get foreign (American) results. 

I don't know what you mean by this.  Certain aspects of our situation are similar to those in the US.  Others are not and I take both into account.  We don't want the US gun violence problem in Canada.  Left unchecked, we might get much closer to that situation.  Thankfully we don't have a Second Amendment that puts gun freedoms above bigger public safety concerns, though some of the legal firearms in Canada are troubling, and our inability to keep guns from crossing the border (as well as illegal entrants) makes border security a bigger issue these days.  No calls to "build the wall" yet.   Also, Malcom Gladwell is another Canadian who uses this narrative.  He knows Toronto well and attended university there. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't know what you mean by this.  Certain aspects of our situation are similar to those in the US.  Others are not and I take both into account.  We don't want the US gun violence problem in Canada.  Left unchecked, we might get much closer to that situation.  Thankfully we don't have a Second Amendment that puts gun freedoms above bigger public safety concerns, though some of the legal firearms in Canada are troubling, and our inability to keep guns from crossing the border (as well as illegal entrants) makes border security a bigger issue these days.  No calls to "build the wall" yet.   Also, Malcom Gladwell is another Canadian who uses this narrative.  He knows Toronto well and attended university there. 

 

Well, Toronto now has a higher gun homicide rate than New York City.   Focusing on the American narrative has meant tickety-boo in Canada, where many of the illegal firearms have domestic origin.   I agree that Canada is not the United States, but it sure gets a lot of attention anyway.

To be fair, it's not just guns...Canadian media obsesses on the U.S. for many narratives.

Firearms in the U.S. are cultural...and constitutional.    In Canada, they are just cultural.

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Well, Toronto now has a higher gun homicide rate than New York City.   Focusing on the American narrative has meant tickety-boo in Canada, where many of the illegal firearms have domestic origin.   I agree that Canada is not the United States, but it sure gets a lot of attention anyway.

To be fair, it's not just guns...Canadian media obsesses on the U.S. for many narratives.

Firearms in the U.S. are cultural...and constitutional.    In Canada, they are just cultural.

I don't think the majority of Canadians want them to be even cultural.  On gun control I'm happy to see Canada characterized as "nanny Eskimo-commie snowflake" or whatever lefty moniker you like.  Don't care, don't want the guns...

[Guest ProudConservative]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

I'm going to take a guess that "Proudconservative" is actually meant to be ironic.

Real conservatives wanna save lives... We want strong communities.

If I have to choose between appeasing the conspiracy types who use fear to push gun culture, or becoming like Japan.... I rather become like Japan.

I really don't see much of a middle ground. I don't want Canada to become America lite.... I wan't use to become mature like Europe or Japan.... When it comes to preventing gun crime. 

If it means telling some some Saskchewan cowboys.... to tone it down, than so be it.

Good for the liberals, for speaking out against gun violence. If the conservatives were smart... they be like. "What can we do to help"

[Argus]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Don't care, don't want the guns...

I don't have a problem with guns (not arsenals) in the hands of people who have been checked out, passed courses and keep them safe.

People like... me, for example.

[Guest ProudConservative]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

More third world types coming in with no skills, living in poverty, breeding kids who grow up in poverty. You've seen the videos of the gang bangers. You know they're not Dutch.

I grew up with the third world gang bangers. They forced the clowns into our schools... They use to threaten everybody.

Gangster rap was shoved down our throats... If you wanted to dance with a hot girl... you had to put on a "50 Cent" tune.

So even though some of us loved House Music.... we had to play that Thug Music to impress the girls.

I can say that Rap music was far worse in the early 2000's than today. This was the typical stuff you would hear at a house party.

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Argus]

1 minute ago, ProudConservative said:

Real conservatives wanna save lives... We want strong communities.

Do you imagine people of other political persuasions don't want to save lives or want strong communities?

Conservatives do not approve of government overreach. They believe in the rights of the individual, including property rights, and that those rights should only be restricted by government for a demonstrated need. There is no demonstrated need here because there is no evidence banning guns would make the slightest difference to the gang members shooting each other down in the streets.

1 minute ago, ProudConservative said:

If I have to choose between appeasing the conspiracy types who use fear to push gun culture, or becoming like Japan.... I rather become like Japan.

Figure a way to chop up the border and sail us off to sea, then. Otherwise, that's not happening.