How much refugees are costing us

[Argus]

The govenrment has done its best to keep us in the dark about the costs of refugees. They've largely been aided by liberals at other levels of government, as well as most of the mainstream media. But we get a small indication, just a very small one of the costs in one city.

The city is paying $42,000 per month to the Times Group Corp. to use the 5800 Yonge St. site, which opened its doors on Tuesday.

City spokesman Andrea Gonsalves also confirmed the city has been paying the monthly rent to the owner since January of this year even though the site sat vacant until this week.

But that’s not all. Gonsalves said it is costing the city another $45,000 per month to provide heat and light to this 80,000-square-foot building, about two-thirds of which is being used to house some 200 refugees, 120 of them female and another 80 male.

Note this is just one building housing 200 refugees. And it does not, of course, include their health care or legal costs(provincial) or the money the federal government gives them. Emergency shelters across the country are stuffed to the brim with refugees, and municipal governments are renting hotels and motels and everything else they can find to house more. How much does it all cost? No one knows. How much when you add in the health care, education and welfare? No one knows. What about when you add legal costs, which were estimated back in 2013, when processing was much faster, at $50,000 each?

Now one is adding the costs up. However, though this is difficult to decipher, and is mainly talking about reception facilities, several countries like Belgium and the Netherlands, do list the amount per year that asylum seekers cost them. This works out to around $30,000 each.. Canada has taken in over 100,000 asylum claimants in the 2017 and 2018. That works out to $3 billion per year just for the people from those two years. Of course, we've also taken in over 52,000 MORE this year, up to the end of October and we took in about 24,000 in 2016. It's also taking 2 to 3 years to even hear their initial claims, plus years more of legal appeals (paid for by us) before a final decision is made. And then if they get turned down, well, we don't keep track of how many leave, and we don't have the resources for Border Services to track them down if they stay. So now we're up to something like $5 billion per year, just for a four year period.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/refugee-shelter-to-cost-taxpayers-nearly-1-m-per-month

[scribblet]

The costs are excessive so what do we do if Catherine McKenna et al cabinet ministers increase the numbers exponentially as they have been suggesting, as in millions of 'climate refugees'. 

The people being housed here are not genuine refugees, they are illegal migrants or 'asylum seekers', so if this illegal crossing isn't fixed it will continue to cost.    Don't forget this is only one building, there are several hotels and motels being used this way.   If asylum claimants in the city’s shelter system stay for six-months  they can score a housing allowance that helps them pay rent for up to four years after moving into permanent housing. 

As I see it, the Times Group Corp which is owned by immigrants themselves,  bought the building and found a renter with deep tax dollar pockets to pay for it,  under the guise of "Giving back to the community".  the mantra of those wanting to feel good about themselves, and hopefully getting points in social circles.    

Still,  the numbers are only going to increase so how can they get the costs down and how does the city ease the shortage of beds for the homeless as city shelters are full.

This is from March  https://tnc.news/2019/03/18/how-much-has-justin-trudeaus-invite-to-the-worlds-migrants-cost-canadian-taxpayers/

[eyeball]

Where were you guys when people were warning about how globalization, conflict and climate change would cause refugees?  Posting LMAO's and opinions about Chicken Little's and commies as I recall.

What about the cost of idiots who refuse to heed warnings, what do we do about them?

Edited November 16, 2019 by eyeball

[scribblet]

These are not 'climate refugees', they are 'asylum seekers' crossing illegally.  

[Cannucklehead]

Not all refugees are illegals, they are fleeing from their native country, often due to wars/violence or oppression.  

Some illegals are refugees, but they are not willing to become citizens for various reasons, the most common is that they are fleeing justice in their native countries.  

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, scribblet said:

These are not 'climate refugees', they are 'asylum seekers' crossing illegally.  

The fact remains they're coming and with no end in sight.  Just as predicted.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

Not all refugees are illegals, they are fleeing from their native country, often due to wars/violence or oppression. 

Fleeing war does not make you a legitimate refugee. The UN agreement specifically did not include those fleeing wars or oppression because those categories are simply too broad and the numbers too great. There are about 150 million people in the middle east alone who live in impoverished, war-torn countries under oppressive regimes. Should we accept anyone from those countries that shows up at our border?

[Michael Hardner]

So now we're conflating border crossers, refugees and immigrants... ok then.

 

Here are some numbers, since so many on here love to talk about problems out of context employing a semantic magnifying glass all the while:

https://irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/statistics/Pages/Irregular-border-crosser-statistics.aspx

Statscan has 45K border crossers since early 2017, for about 2.5 years.  They seem to be accepting a little over 50% so that would leave us with maybe 25K refugees out of say 750K immigrants over that time or about 3%.  Not sure why they want to still come here, given that the right wing spreads lies, deceptive memes and videos, and refuses to act like human beings - even when the refugees are the results of our own policies as eyeball pointed out.

Case in point, the Toronto Sun printed an outright lie that they were sacrificing goats in a Toronto hotel (yes, I know.  I wouldn't have fallen for it but the Sun fell over themselves believing it so bad they didn't bother to contact the hotel to check) and the next day there was arson at the hotel.

So when you are confronted with right-wing lies about refugees, stick to your facts, and stick to basic human kindness and you will be fine.  These idiots make more noise than their numbers so don't be daunted...

[Argus]

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So now we're conflating border crossers, refugees and immigrants... ok then.

No. Nobody has done that except you. We're talking specifically about refugees claimants.

Quote

Statscan has 45K border crossers since early 2017, for about 2.5 years. 

Again, I'm not sure why you get the idea nobody cares about people who claim asylum through other means. I had thought I had made it clear in referencing ALL asylum claimants and the costs involved. It does not cost more to house a border jumper than it does someone who comes on a work visa and claims asylum or shows up at the airport and claims asylum. And the numbers are well over 100,000 in just the last two years.

Quote

They seem to be accepting a little over 50% so that would leave us with maybe 25K refugees

In fact, the acceptance rate overall is closer to 70%. But there's a problem. As I've previously posted and cited, we do not record when people leave after getting turned down, not IF they leave. Nor does Border Services have much ability to look for them. There is no way of telling how many of those people who have been here through years of appeals actually leave or just move up the block.

Quote

out of say 750K immigrants over that time or about 3%. 

Again, the number in two years is 100,000, and this number continues to rise. That puts it at considerably above 10% For example, in the 2018 report to parliament it states that approximately 36,000 of 280,000 new permanent residents accepted in Canada were refugees. That is in one year vs your estimate of 25k in two.

Quote

Case in point, the Toronto Sun printed an outright lie that they were sacrificing goats in a Toronto hotel

Yes, we all know. You've mentioned it at least a hundred times so far.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Argus

[Cannucklehead]

https://refugeesmigrants.un.org/definitions

Refugees are persons who are outside their country of origin for reasons of feared persecution, conflict, generalized violence, or other circumstances that have seriously disturbed public order and, as a result, require international protection.  The refugee definition can be found in the 1951 Convention and regional refugee instruments, as well as UNHCR’s Statute. 

Is it fair that my parents got to come to this country but someone else's aren't allowed?

Mind you my parents were not "refugees".  

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

https://refugeesmigrants.un.org/definitions

 

Is it fair that my parents got to come to this country but someone else's aren't allowed?

Mind you my parents were not "refugees".  

This is the legal definition under the UN charter:

A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.

The point that people like Trudeau ignore is the second part, where they have to have a well-founded fear of persecution due to race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a social group. Syrian Muslims fleeing a war do not have such a fear. They are not being persecuted due to their race or religion. On the other hand, Christians in Syria or Iraq, or Yazzidis, would qualify because they are singled out for violence and persecution due to their religion. You can't just say "I'm from a war zone therefore I claim political asylum'. That's not how it works.

And 'fair' has nothing to do with it. There's what we can do, and what we cannot do. We cannot take tens of millions of people in, therefore we have to set some rules on priorities.

[Cannucklehead]

The fate of Muslims in their own homeland is not particularly rosier.  From one end of the Muslim world to the next, Muslims - in Iran, Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia in particular - live under tyrannical regimes, ruthless dictators, murderous military juntas, with their most basic civil liberties and human rights denied.

 

Sounds like a good enough reason to seek refuge imo.  

 

 

[Shady]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

The fact remains they're coming and with no end in sight.  Just as predicted.

War has always caused refugees.  Nothing needed to be predicted.  No refugee is a result of globalization, whatever that means or climate change.  Zero.

[Cannucklehead]

3 minutes ago, Shady said:

War has always caused refugees.  Nothing needed to be predicted.  No refugee is a result of globalization, whatever that means or climate change.  Zero.

Actually back in the day there was the "sweatshops" that produced clothing for sale in the u.s. using child labour.   I remember Nike was one of them.  Apparently it still happens today but it is not part of mass media.  

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Shady said:

War has always caused refugees.  Nothing needed to be predicted.  No refugee is a result of globalization, whatever that means or climate change.  Zero.

Actually you're right, its conservatism that fucks everything up. Always has always will.  

[Rue]

17 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So now we're conflating border crossers, refugees and immigrants... ok then.

 

Here are some numbers, since so many on here love to talk about problems out of context employing a semantic magnifying glass all the while:

https://irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/statistics/Pages/Irregular-border-crosser-statistics.aspx

Statscan has 45K border crossers since early 2017, for about 2.5 years.  They seem to be accepting a little over 50% so that would leave us with maybe 25K refugees out of say 750K immigrants over that time or about 3%.  Not sure why they want to still come here, given that the right wing spreads lies, deceptive memes and videos, and refuses to act like human beings - even when the refugees are the results of our own policies as eyeball pointed out.

Case in point, the Toronto Sun printed an outright lie that they were sacrificing goats in a Toronto hotel (yes, I know.  I wouldn't have fallen for it but the Sun fell over themselves believing it so bad they didn't bother to contact the hotel to check) and the next day there was arson at the hotel.

So when you are confronted with right-wing lies about refugees, stick to your facts, and stick to basic human kindness and you will be fine.  These idiots make more noise than their numbers so don't be daunted...

Some of what you say is true but some of it could be challenged. For example of  the 50% you say are rejected as refugees who were border crossers from the US who are mostly Nigerians and not refugees under the convention definition what you do not disclose is how many of those are actually deported. Nigeria won't take them back and most are NOT deported. They remain in Canada. We deport very few illegal refugees. Look at the stats. This is because there are insufficient numbers of government officials to find and deport illegals and countries do not want them back. So this is why I argue the refugee system is flawed and when I say that the UN convention and I argue its outmoded.

The reality is most refugees are economic migrants who because of disease, draught, flooding, earthquakes or other environmental phenomena need to physically move. That phenomena most certainly has to do with changing weather conditions that have brought on floods and draughts. It also has to do with specific economic conditions imposed by the International Monetary Fund and other such agencies representing and  defending the best interests of multi-national corporations and cartels that now control the ability of any emerging country to grow and export food to then earn income to then apply to  develop other economic sectors in their respective nations. This is tied in to corrupt leaders of 3rd and fourth world countries bribed and controlled by international conglamorates. We also in the first world create a brain drain. We suck out all the educated people from third and fourth world countries and leave them with no one to build their own nations. Its complicated and to simply say refugees are caused by war is inaccurate.

Yes war displaces people who become refugees but the vast majority of war refugees do not go further than their feet can take them before they have no choice but to stop. Those refugees, the vast majority of them can not and do not travel to Canada or anywhere else because they have no money. They stay in camps where as much as 80% of their children are sexually molested in the chaos and the no.1 killer is diaheria from dehydration and malnutrition and unsanitary conditions.

The refugee system that is defined in the UN convention was created by a bunch of elitist upper class academics who had and have no clue what refugees are and created a theoretical construct that has nothing to do with the real world.

Our refugee system was created to ease the guilt of Canadians because during WW2 McKenzie King sent Jews back to Germany to die and called them vermin and rats and we had a racist immigration policy. It was created to make guilt ridden liberals feel better about themselves. It uses the Christian missionary script. We define refugees as savages needing to be saved by  our values and way of life or they are condemned to hell and we convert them to our values to cleanse their souls. Its nothing but a bullshit rewritten Christian missionary script only we replace Christian religion values with the religion of Canadianism, this concept that everyone can be anything if they come to Canada and work for others and when they do make money spend it on material goods. We want refugees or underclass to fill the jobs born in Canada Canadians now won't do. Born in Canada Canadians have been brought up to expect minimum levels of lifestyle and so we need to find others not yet conditioned to believe that.

Born in Canada Canadians believe it is their automatic right to have a house, car, job, and be able to own at least a t.v., radio, microwave, fridge, stove, unlimited cellphone and internet use, a computer as necessities. If we can bring in "refugees" not yet trained to believe that, we can both make ourselves feel righteous and less guilty and find cheap underclass to work.

Guilt. That is the fuel of the refugee program we have. Its an invention to justify our living as elites in our political system which we all know depends on colonial satellite nations to provide us resources. We use the third and fourth world for manual labour, to test out new medicines,  to test new military weapons and to engage in dangerous chemical and other productions we won't expose Canadians to.

The Refugee system we have does but one thing-it creates an industry of smugglers or coyotes who charge life mortgages on the people they bring to Canada. The persons they bring to Canada whether they make it as refugees or not are not deported. They stay in Canada engaging in cheap labour and pay a hefty monthly fee back to their coyotes for the duration of their lives for getting them to Canada.

Another form of cheap labour are students. We now have an education system of universities and colleges that take in huge amounts of revenue off of international students. These students use the entrance to schools, as a way to then  go and work. Its just a way to get in for many. They enroll, and the cost of the school and the interest they pay the immigration consultant on the balance they owe him to get him to Canada, then are their reality. They are supposed to work up to 20 hours a week, many work 40-50. If they do show up in school its only to write a test with answers they got from another student. Many have other students sit in their place and write the tests for them.

Universities and community colleges look the other way knowing these students have failed or cheated on the English tests and they hire and fire professors based on temporary contracts based on student evaluations. The moment a student files a bad evaluation or complains about a professor, bam they are gone. There are no shortage of under-employed Canadians looking to teach.

Our training and academic schools now have turned into shams to sucker in those underclass who can't qualify as immigrants or refugees.

Our current Prime Minister lives in a sheltered privileged environment brought up to believe "poor" people are creatures....dirty, savage, uncleansed and in need of his protection. He sees himself as a savior of them and he believes looking the other way and allowing his large cities to be flooded with these downtrodden is his messiah role only he is not there to wash their feet or feed them. Out of sight out of mind. Once he issues a few oral platitudes about them he moves on to his latest fantasy and has no clue nor does he care what happens to them when they come to Canada without proper survival and language skills.

Immigration policy when it works, identifies economic needs of the country and matches people from outside Canada to those needs and this helps build the economy and brings new ideas and approaches. Bringing in dynamic immigrants to contribute to new ideas and innovations and fill the areas that are in need of good candidates is the purpose.

There also has to be some degree of compassion and humanity for people suffering in other countries from war, disease, famine. I argue foreign aid properly administered and controlled not given helter skelter to corrupt regimes via Lavalin building prison camps for these corrupt leaders as Trudeau has done is one way to do this. Another way would be instead of bringing refugees to Canada and dumping them here where they are destined to suffer from social and psychological maladjustment, they be helped in their camps with food, water, proper shelter, education, sanitary support systems which would be far cheaper than our refugee determination process and would enable these refugees to be able to go home and help rebuild their countries when conditions change rather than leaving them in Canada as underclass.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Rue

[scribblet]

Between the taxes/money  we are hemorrhaging  on housing, welfare, and healthcare for “refugees”  and illegal border crossers, IMO we would be better spend it on apartment complexes for CANADIAN homeless and low income earners.

Canadians do resent spending money on queue jumpers.

https://www.blacklocks.ca/they-resent-queue-jumpers/

Newcomers to Canada resent illegal immigrants for “jumping what they view as an immigration queue”, according to Department of Immigration research. Illegal immigration has cost Parliament $1.4 billion in three years, by official estimate: “We worked really hard to get here.”

 

Every winter it’s the same old same old, not just in Montreal but Toronto and other cities.    The homeless are going to need extra care this year as it’s an early start to a long cold winter.  2.4 billion would build a lot of housing. 

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/homeless-shelters-jammed-as-montreal-temperatures-plunge-1.4689354

 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, scribblet said:

Between the taxes/money  we are hemorrhaging  on housing, welfare, and healthcare for “refugees”  and illegal border crossers, IMO we would be better spend it on apartment complexes for CANADIAN homeless and low income earners.

Canadians do resent spending money on queue jumpers.

https://www.blacklocks.ca/they-resent-queue-jumpers/

Newcomers to Canada resent illegal immigrants for “jumping what they view as an immigration queue”, according to Department of Immigration research. Illegal immigration has cost Parliament $1.4 billion in three years, by official estimate: “We worked really hard to get here.”

 

Every winter it’s the same old same old, not just in Montreal but Toronto and other cities.    The homeless are going to need extra care this year as it’s an early start to a long cold winter.  2.4 billion would build a lot of housing. 

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/homeless-shelters-jammed-as-montreal-temperatures-plunge-1.4689354

 

Are you at least beginning to see now that ignoring the warnings about our policies that would lead to refugees was a mistake? 

[Argus]

16 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

The fate of Muslims in their own homeland is not particularly rosier.  From one end of the Muslim world to the next, Muslims - in Iran, Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia in particular - live under tyrannical regimes, ruthless dictators, murderous military juntas, with their most basic civil liberties and human rights denied.

 

Sounds like a good enough reason to seek refuge imo. 

Sure. But it's not a good enough reason to let them.

Remember that even where there is some democracy in Muslim countries, or where tyrannical regimes are overthrown, they retain their cultural authoritarian beliefs in punishing all those who transgress the Koran and Sharia. There is not any country I'm aware of which has a minority Muslim population reaching 10% which does not have active Islamic terrorist groups agitating for Sharia law.

[scribblet]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Are you at least beginning to see now that ignoring the warnings about our policies that would lead to refugees was a mistake? 

What policies ?  I do think the policy of allowing people to continue illegally crossing at Roxham Rd. is bad policy yes.

[cougar]

23 hours ago, Argus said:

There is no way of telling how many of those people who have been here through years of appeals actually leave or just move up the block.

Where would they move "up the block"?   Don't they need to use medical services, don't they need a driver's license to go to and back from work?  Don't they need to register a phone number in their name?  So many services need a valid photo ID.  If they do not have it , they cannot even collect their registered mail at the POST!

The only reason they would stay is if the government lets them.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, scribblet said:

What policies ? 

Globalization and policies that were conducive towards conflict and of course climate change.

I do think the policy of allowing people to continue illegally crossing at Roxham Rd. is bad policy yes.

Why on Earth do you people still believe being disengenuous is always the correct course of action?

[taxme]

On 11/15/2019 at 6:03 PM, Argus said:

The govenrment has done its best to keep us in the dark about the costs of refugees. They've largely been aided by liberals at other levels of government, as well as most of the mainstream media. But we get a small indication, just a very small one of the costs in one city.

The city is paying $42,000 per month to the Times Group Corp. to use the 5800 Yonge St. site, which opened its doors on Tuesday.

City spokesman Andrea Gonsalves also confirmed the city has been paying the monthly rent to the owner since January of this year even though the site sat vacant until this week.

But that’s not all. Gonsalves said it is costing the city another $45,000 per month to provide heat and light to this 80,000-square-foot building, about two-thirds of which is being used to house some 200 refugees, 120 of them female and another 80 male.

Note this is just one building housing 200 refugees. And it does not, of course, include their health care or legal costs(provincial) or the money the federal government gives them. Emergency shelters across the country are stuffed to the brim with refugees, and municipal governments are renting hotels and motels and everything else they can find to house more. How much does it all cost? No one knows. How much when you add in the health care, education and welfare? No one knows. What about when you add legal costs, which were estimated back in 2013, when processing was much faster, at $50,000 each?

Now one is adding the costs up. However, though this is difficult to decipher, and is mainly talking about reception facilities, several countries like Belgium and the Netherlands, do list the amount per year that asylum seekers cost them. This works out to around $30,000 each.. Canada has taken in over 100,000 asylum claimants in the 2017 and 2018. That works out to $3 billion per year just for the people from those two years. Of course, we've also taken in over 52,000 MORE this year, up to the end of October and we took in about 24,000 in 2016. It's also taking 2 to 3 years to even hear their initial claims, plus years more of legal appeals (paid for by us) before a final decision is made. And then if they get turned down, well, we don't keep track of how many leave, and we don't have the resources for Border Services to track them down if they stay. So now we're up to something like $5 billion per year, just for a four year period.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/refugee-shelter-to-cost-taxpayers-nearly-1-m-per-month

It's time for Canada to have it's own ICE immigration enforcement unit here in Canada. Lol. Of course our dear leaders would never create such a department. The department would probably end up being labelled by those pro-immigration groups and immigration lawyers as being anti-refugee. Canada has taken in over 175,000 legal and illegal so called refugees in the past four years, at a cost of hundreds of billions of tax dollars to care for most of the illegal criminals refugees that are among them all. And this is on top of the hundreds of thousands of new immigrants being brought into Canada every year also.

This is absolutely insane for this country to be allowing this to happen every year. It's no wonder when I walk around in some Canadian cities these days, I have to wonder as to what country am I living in these days. Go to most Canadian malls in Toronto or Vancouver and there appears to be more non-white people walking around than white people. I hope that I have not offended anyone from me giving my own opinion on immigration? 

I guess that with Canada signing on to this United Nations global refugee program, I guess that I am just starting to see the results of all of this legal and illegal immigration going on with more to come. The British/European people in Canada are slowly being replaced by other foreign nations people, and most white people just shrug their shoulders when I mention this to them. As more immigration continues, and the federal government still enforcing multiculturalism programs and agendas and keeping them still in place, I fear that in another decades or so, the white people will truly become a minority in their own white homeland. I guess that the Canadian soldiers that had died in two world wars fought and died for nothing. They appear to now have fought and died to help get rid of the old Canada to make room for a new Canada. What a sad and pathetic country that Canada has become. 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, cougar said:

Where would they move "up the block"?   Don't they need to use medical services, don't they need a driver's license to go to and back from work?  Don't they need to register a phone number in their name?  So many services need a valid photo ID.  If they do not have it , they cannot even collect their registered mail at the POST!

The only reason they would stay is if the government lets them.

They can access all of that without much problem. No, you don't need a drivers license to go to work, but even if you did you don't need to provide proof of citizenship to get one. Nor for a phone nor an apartment.  We have hundreds of thousands of temporary foreign workers and hundreds of thousands of students in this country at any given time. Where do you think they live? Anyway, you want photo ID? You can find it in a hundred places on the internet. Lots of phony and stolen health cards out there, too.

There are literally millions of illegals in the United States. How do you imagine they survive?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Argus

[WestCanMan]

On 11/16/2019 at 9:42 AM, eyeball said:

Where were you guys when people were warning about how globalization, conflict and climate change would cause refugees?  Posting LMAO's and opinions about Chicken Little's and commies as I recall.

What about the cost of idiots who refuse to heed warnings, what do we do about them?

What a bunch of tripe.

We don't have any control over whether or not shithole countries choose to be shithole countries and have civil wars or start wars with other countries. Globalization and climate change aren't acceptable reasons for mass migration.

Canada is in a position to take in refugees, we just aren't in a position to have free medicare and vast social spending anymore.