The road to 2020

[Shady]

Joe Biden is not well.  Is he trying to lose?

 

[Argus]

On 8/4/2020 at 3:37 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trump should not and will not change the methods that have already delivered political history....he likes doing things his way:

Political history. I see. And after almost four years in office what has Trump accomplished other than the self-enrichment of himself and his relatives? He has authored a number of presidential directives, all of which will be reversed in January should he lose. He, or rather, his administration has authored no important legislation. He has presided over a chaotic and incompetent response to a terrible epidemic, which has gotten many thousands of Americans killed who otherwise would not have been. He and the Republicans have succeeded only in dividing the country and lowering the quality of political discourse while running up massive deficits.

Oh, and making Russia very happy.

[Argus]

20 hours ago, Shady said:

Joe Biden is not well.  Is he trying to lose?

 

I think we all know what he meant, and he's not really far wrong.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Political history. I see. And after almost four years in office what has Trump accomplished other than the self-enrichment of himself and his relatives?

 

First and foremost, Donald Trump made U.S. political history by defeating Hillary Clinton in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.  He did this without ever holding elected or military office previously.

President Trump's numerous executive orders are summarized here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/here-s-full-list-donald-trump-s-executive-orders-n720796

Not one, but two conservative Supreme Court Justices were appointed by Trump and confirmed despite extreme political opposition.

The U.S. economy reached record levels of employment for all demographic groups, often blamed or credited to sitting administrations.   

NAFTA 2.0 happened because of Trump.    Tax reform and repatriation of U.S. capital were Trump initiatives.

Trump has confronted China and NATO deadbeats, moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem, bombed ISIS to pieces, prosecuted illegal immigration, reversed many Obama era policies, engaged North Korea, etc.

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The Trump haters may not like his methods or motivation, but Donald Trump has been a consequential president (in just four years).  His successes and failures will be judged on Nov. 3 when he faces election as the incumbent, just like any other U.S. president.

 

[Infidel Dog]

As to the idea the Trump administration "has presided over a chaotic and incompetent response to a terrible epidemic" that's just another Fake News fallacy.

Laura Ingraham will straighten out anybody open minded enough to listen. The American federal response was exceptional. Some states could have done better though. Even so America compares well with the European union:

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Argus]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

First and foremost, Donald Trump made U.S. political history by defeating Hillary Clinton in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.  He did this without ever holding elected or military office previously.

I'll grant you that a corrupt buffoon getting elected president is political history but I can't see as how that's accomplished anything good for America.

Quote

President Trump's numerous executive orders are summarized here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/here-s-full-list-donald-trump-s-executive-orders-n720796

All of which will be reversed.

Quote

Not one, but two conservative Supreme Court Justices were appointed by Trump and confirmed despite extreme political opposition.

And Trump gets credit despite not having a clue who either man was, but simply recommending whomever he was told to recommend and leaving it to McConnell to get them confirmed?

Quote

The U.S. economy reached record levels of employment for all demographic groups, often blamed or credited to sitting administrations.  

And now it's reached record levels of unemployment.

Quote

NAFTA 2.0 happened because of Trump.   

Which has benefited whom exactly?

Quote

Tax reform and repatriation of U.S. capital were Trump initiatives.

He has indeed made many wealthy Americans wealthier (including his family), and many rich corporations richer. Watch for massive tax increase to reverse all that within a year.

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Trump has confronted China and NATO deadbeats, moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem, bombed ISIS to pieces, prosecuted illegal immigration, reversed many Obama era policies, engaged North Korea, etc.

Trump has accomplished nothing whatsoever with China. All he's done is taxed the imports - which are greater than they used to be - so that Americans have to pay more. NATO has done nothing to accommodate Trump. ISIS  is still out there, though severely damaged by Russia and Iran, not the US. North Korea is still happily building its nuclear arsenal.

No accomplishments there at all.

Quote

The Trump haters may not like his methods or motivation, but Donald Trump has been a consequential president (in just four years).  His successes and failures will be judged on Nov. 3 when he faces election as the incumbent, just like any other U.S. president.

The only consequences of this presidency will be a diminished respect for the presidency, a more divided population, a poorer, more indebted country, more dead people, less respect for America abroad, weakened alliances and emboldened enemies. There is not one important success you can point to that Trump is in any way responsible for. Quite aside from his methods or motivation, he has been a complete failure, and caused lasting damage to his country. Not the least of which will be pushing many Americans to the Left, which will in all likelihood result in huge budgetary cuts to the US military, and a massive increase in immigration.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Argus

[Argus]

9 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

As to the idea the Trump administration "has presided over a chaotic and incompetent response to a terrible epidemic" that's just another Fake News fallacy.

Laura Ingraham will straighten out anybody open minded enough to listen. The American federal response was exceptional. Some states could have done better though. Even so America compares well with the European union:

Spare me. She's a moron who rants against the CDC and face masks. And nobody is talking about the states response but that of the Trump administration.

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

The only consequences of this presidency will be a diminished respect for the presidency, a more divided population, a poorer, more indebted country, more dead people, less respect for America abroad, weakened alliances and emboldened enemies. There is not one important success you can point to that Trump is in any way responsible for. Quite aside from his methods or motivation, he has been a complete failure, and caused lasting damage to his country. Not the least of which will be pushing many Americans to the Left, which will in all likelihood result in huge budgetary cuts to the US military, and a massive increase in immigration.

 

Either way, your initial response has been proven wrong...by yourself.

Trump's presidency has made a significant impact on the American body politic, and political history will reflect this.

Just really, really, really hating Trump from Canada doesn't count for much.

Edited August 7, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Either way, your initial response has been proven wrong...by yourself.

Trump's presidency has made a significant impact on the American body politic, and political history will reflect this.

Oh I see. You're counting a negative impact as a good thing, are you?

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Oh I see. You're counting a negative impact as a good thing, are you?

 

 

I don't deal in the very simplistic "good or bad"....clearly Trump has made his mark on U.S. political history.

...and he has freaked out Canada because they let him do it.

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I don't deal in the very simplistic "good or bad"....clearly Trump has made his mark on U.S. political history.

...and he has freaked out Canada because they let him do it.

Hardly. We're not fighting rising rates of covid because our bufoonish leader rants that masks aren't necessary and covid is 'fake news'.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Hardly. We're not fighting rising rates of covid because our bufoonish leader rants that masks aren't necessary and covid is 'fake news'.

 

No, you are freaking out because of a measly 10% tariff for dumping aluminum in the U.S....again.

[Infidel Dog]

  

41 minutes ago, Argus said:

Spare me. She's a moron who rants against the CDC and face masks. And nobody is talking about the states response but that of the Trump administration.

 

Well if she's a moron what would you call somebody who has no argument to the facts she presented showing the American federal response to the China virus was exceptional.

For example she says:

Quote

In looking at the numbers you have to remember the US is an enormous country with about 330 million people but when you add the populations of Germany, Britain, France, Italy, Spain and Belgium they together have almost 336 million people - that's roughly equal to our population. 

So first off on testing, we've performed better than those 6 European western countries. They've done 42.8 million tests for Covid 19. We've done 59.9 million. Since we've performed so many more tests we can't really do an apples to apples comparison on confirmed Covid case numbers but of course we can look at deaths. We have suffered. We've suffered a 158 thousand deaths. It's a horrific tragedy, but the 6 European countries combined have suffered roughly 159,00 deaths - an equal and horrific tragedy.

Likewise our death rates are lower than many of our European counterparts. Belgium, Britain, Spain, Italy, have seen way worse death rates than we have. France is only doing slightly better in terms of death than we are (45 France to 48 American  deaths per hundred thousand. Belgium is 81)

Now what we also have to recognize is that the US is as we said a massive country. If you break it down by state it's clear the Democrat states are the reason that the death rates are so high. It just happens to work out that way, right? We can also say that our economy has done significantly better than Europe. Remember that the US economy fell by  9.5 percent on a quarterly basis. The Euro zone - that is the economies of all European nations that use the Euro fell by 12.1 percent. Even Germany suffered a decline of 10.1 percent. But aren't the European nations doing better than us going forward? Well...that's not what investors think...

And she goes on to prove it.

So if she's the moron what do we have to say about those whose best argument against those those facts she presented is she's a poop-head.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Argus]

41 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

  Well if she's a moron what would you call somebody who has no argument to the facts she presented showing the American federal response to the China virus was exceptional.

For example she says:

And she goes on to prove it.

So if she's the moron what do we have to say about those whose best argument against those those facts she presented is she's a poop-head.

So all those countries you talked about are opening up, having gotten this virus under control. The US is still in complete disarray, which is also why they have to keep massively testing, because it's spreading like wildfire across the country. Also, there's a reason she includes Italy and Spain in that group as they were the first to be hard-hit, and didn't know how to treat it. Likewise the death rate was high when it first hit New York. But it should have ended there. When New York got control, things should have slowed down. Instead the south and west refused to take any precautions and it spread like wildfire there. And yes, the death rate is lower now since the world health community has a better handle on how to treat it, but that doesn't stop the fact it's spreading out of control in America where the rest of the Western world has it under control.

[Argus]

54 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, you are freaking out because of a measly 10% tariff for dumping aluminum in the U.S....again.

Freaking out? You're the one who raised the subject. I simply replied to it. And mostly I'm bemused by extremely stupid people being allowed to do extremely stupid things which don't even help them! This will cost the US jobs, and in the end won't help his re-election bid either because Canada will focus it's retaliation on Ohio and other battleground states. You think the workers and management in that Whirlpool plant were happy about his stupid announcement? You think they weren't frowning and looking at each other off camera, realizing this was going to increase their costs and ultimately cost jobs?

I believe the US Manufacturing Association last time around said that the job losses outnumbered jobs gained by his tariffs by 10-1. This will be similar.

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

I believe the US Manufacturing Association last time around said that the job losses outnumbered jobs gained by his tariffs by 10-1. This will be similar.

 

You can believe whatever you want....The U.S. gained about 7,000,000 jobs during Trump's term and a significant portion were created in manufacturing, something that Obama said was not possible.

I get it that you really, really hate Trump, but millions of Americans do not agree with you. 

America's choices and decisions...not yours.

Edited August 7, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

You can believe whatever you want....The U.S. gained about 7,000,000 jobs during Trump's term and a significant portion were created in manufacturing, something that Obama said was not possible.

Maybe Obama didn't imagine gaining jobs by massive government spending the way Trump did. Much of those job gains (now lost) came about because of massive, massive borrowing. So yeah, when you flood the country with trillions in borrowed money that can buy some jobs. But then you become Greece.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Maybe Obama didn't imagine gaining jobs by massive government spending the way Trump did. Much of those job gains (now lost) came about because of massive, massive borrowing. So yeah, when you flood the country with trillions in borrowed money that can buy some jobs. But then you become Greece.

 

You keep moving the goal posts just because you hate Trump so much....the employment statistics don't care how much you hate Trump.

U.S. unemployment numbers are still better than Canada's today even with so many COVID infections and deaths.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

You keep moving the goal posts just because you hate Trump so much....the employment statistics don't care how much you hate Trump.

No. I haven't moved anything. Trump hasn't accomplished anything of note. That was my position from the start. That he borrowed trillions of dollars through unaffordable tax cuts and spurred economic growth is not an accomplishment given the growth was temporary but the debt is permanent.

[Infidel Dog]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

So all those countries you talked about are opening up, having gotten this virus under control. The US is still in complete disarray, which is also why they have to keep massively testing, because it's spreading like wildfire across the country. 

Sorry, but that's just wrong and based on nothing more than you crossing your fingers and hoping it won't be challenged. Good luck with that. 

The information she posted was on August 4. Can you show me something saying anything has changed since then.

I would say no, you can't. Because all I can find is stuff like this from the old left of NBC news - Europe faces down a second coronavirus pandemic wave July 25 and the new left of the National Post - European countries reimpose lockdown and travel ban as fear of COVID-19 resurgence looms (separate argument but yes, it's swinging left) August 6 .

Something called Eurozone news was saying this a few days ago:

Quote

As coronavirus cases rise in several European countries, governments are scrambling to contain new emerging clusters of the virus, and some citizens are wondering if countries are prepared to prevent a potential "second wave".

Many experts agree that Europe is experiencing a resurgence in cases, as people are more relaxed about social distancing during the summer months.

France has seen a 78 per cent increase in its weekly COVID-19 incidence rate per 100,000 people. New cases have increased from a couple of hundred per day to more than 1,000.

Some of this is due to expanded testing and locating of asymptomatic cases, particularly in young adults. Health officials have warned that more young people are testing positive for the virus as they ignore social distancing.

Spain is once again a European hotspot with higher infection rates in its northeastern regions near Barcelona, which prompted officials to issue more restrictions.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/08/04/europe-s-coronavirus-resurgence-are-countries-ready-to-prevent-a-second-wave

[Argus]

31 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

The information she posted was on August 4. Can you show me something saying anything has changed since then.

I would say no, you can't. Because all I can find is stuff like this from the old left of NBC news - Europe faces down a second coronavirus pandemic wave July 25 and the new left of the National Post - European countries reimpose lockdown and travel ban as fear of COVID-19 resurgence looms (separate argument but yes, it's swinging left) August 6 .

Something called Eurozone news was saying this a few days ago:

https://www.euronews.com/2020/08/04/europe-s-coronavirus-resurgence-are-countries-ready-to-prevent-a-second-wave

Yeah, Europe is being so careful. Ooooh, France is up to 1,000 cases a day! The US is at what, 50,000 cases a day? You don't get the difference between those figures?

[OftenWrong]

54 minutes ago, Argus said:

he borrowed trillions of dollars through unaffordable tax cuts and spurred economic growth is not an accomplishment given the growth was temporary but the debt is permanent.

Every country's economy and jobs have taken major damage because of the virus shutdown. I don't get how this is seen as a fault of Trump's economy. Arguably it could have kept growing had the shutdown not occurred?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

No. I haven't moved anything. Trump hasn't accomplished anything of note. That was my position from the start. That he borrowed trillions of dollars through unaffordable tax cuts and spurred economic growth is not an accomplishment given the growth was temporary but the debt is permanent.

 

We get it...you hate Trump.    No matter what happens, you will always blame Trump for anything negative and deny him credit for anything positive. 

Economic growth is most certainly an accomplishment, just as you would certainly blame Trump for the opposite.

You can't have it both ways.

[Argus]

15 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Every country's economy and jobs have taken major damage because of the virus shutdown. I don't get how this is seen as a fault of Trump's economy. Arguably it could have kept growing had the shutdown not occurred?

He borrowed trillions BEFORE covid. That huge and unneeded corporate tax cut was all paid for through borrowed money.

[Argus]

15 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

We get it...you hate Trump.    No matter what happens, you will always blame Trump for anything negative and deny him credit for anything positive. 

I do despise Trump. And anyone with a shred of honesty and integrity would deny him credit for things he had little or nothing to do with.

15 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Economic growth is most certainly an accomplishment,

No, it's actually not, if it comes through massive amounts of borrowed money.