Financial Support for Indigenous Peoples

[cannuck]

5 hours ago, Altai said:

You can start to read from here. Your little brain is washed : D

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/change-gonna-come/2017/06/systemic-oppression-indigenous-peoples-no-reason

You extremely limited knowledge is based on some web blog you have searched for to support your unsupportable position.   Mine is based in living and working with aboriginal bands and people for much of the last 45 years.

Giving them protected land, free housing, free education to any level and extent they want, free health care, free EVERYTHING anyone could possibly want is not genocide, it is a privileged life that no other Canadians can get.

[August1991]

12 hours ago, Altai said:

LoL invading people's homeland and violating their rights and after all giving them "money support" could only make you look like a gentleman in front of an ignorant person who has no idea about the history. 

Altai,

I tend to agree with you.

But the future is a far richer, better place if we don't argue about past injustices.

====

The reason that we have a criminal justice system is not to punish past behaviour or seek vengeance; it is to create incentives for future good behaviour.

[Robert Greene]

8 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Altai,

I tend to agree with you.

But the future is a far richer, better place if we don't argue about past injustices.

====

The reason that we have a criminal justice system is not to punish past behaviour or seek vengeance; it is to create incentives for future good behaviour.

Maybe white Canadians should start demanding back pay, for all the money natives squandered on drugs and alcohol.

I hear they pay bootleggers $500 for a bottle of Smirnoff on Baffin Island.

When are white Canadians going to ask for a refund?

[Zeitgeist]

There’s something inherently wrong about race-based benefits and pay-outs.  Where does it end?  Any funding has to be transitional.  The problem with my question is that it includes the word “permanent”.  I support some funding, but permanent support equals permanent dependence.  Anything short of self-sustainability is ultimately a failure.  I agree that privatization of land, should any bands choose it, should be accompanied with transitional support, but it’s finite, as is any reserve/territorial funding.   

[Robert Greene]

29 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

There’s something inherently wrong about race-based benefits and pay-outs.  Where does it end?  Any funding has to be transitional.  The problem with my question is that it includes the word “permanent”.  I support some funding, but permanent support equals permanent dependence.  Anything short of self-sustainability is ultimately a failure.  I agree that privatization of land, should any bands choose it, should be accompanied with transitional support, but it’s finite, as is any reserve/territorial funding.   

Canada can't function with hundreds of reserves making their own custom demands. We need them out. They need their own country to run.

If it's always been about compensation for land, then we should give them their own land. Maybe they deserve their own land, but there can't be hundreds of isolated reserves blocking transportation and trade routes.

It's like a judge forced a divorced couple to live together, just because they lived in the same house. It's not going to work out, and it's never worked out.

The only thing rational to do is separate. 

Canada needs to be broken up. The natives should have a chance to build their own country, and we should be free of all outstanding obligations.

If you gave a natives the choice, I think most of them would leave the reserves and join the Canadian cities. They wouldn't want to take their chances in a new country. If we offered it to them, we could be off the hook.

Some of them would join the new country, and they would have the chance to become the wealthiest nation on earth, if they used their resources wisely.

[eyeball]

16 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

Give them a nice chunk of Canada, and be like "Here ya go. Start your own country"

The natives keep complaining about their lack of control. Well give them unlimited control. Give them their own country.

Unlimited control you say?  To pick the parts they want for their country for example?  They might go for that.

[cannuck]

Aboriginals already HAVE their own country:  Canada.   What they need is to be treated equally, not at some level of very, very special privilege.

Obligations for wrongdoing are legitimate - but only for those actually wronged.   I believe we owe their descendants absolutely nothing that every other Canadian is not also able to access.  Race based anything is not only highly discriminatory, it is also just plain wrong.

[jacee]

12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

There’s something inherently wrong about race-based benefits and pay-outs.  Where does it end?  Any funding has to be transitional.   

The "race-based benefits" claim is popular with white supremacists.

"Where does it end?"

You could as easily ask ... 

Where do welfare benefits end?

Where do health care benefits end?

Where do disability benefits end? 

Where do child care benefits end?

Where does income support for seniors end?

Where do education costs end?

Where do public housing costs end? 

Where do costs for governance, roads, and public utilities end? 

They don't, of course.

And what you are complaining about is the fact that all of those services being provided to Indigenous people. 

Why should they not receive equal services to all other Canadians?

40 per cent of Canadians ... do not pay any effective income tax

https://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/taxes/trudeau-is-right-40-of-canadians-dont-pay-income-taxes-which-means-someone-else-is-picking-up-the-bill

And they all still receive services. 

Your "race-based" complaints are just nonsense ... of a particularly insidious nature.

Edited April 2, 2019 by jacee

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

The "race-based benefits" claim is popular with white supremacists.

"Where does it end?"

You could as easily ask ... 

Where do welfare benefits end?

Where do health care benefits end?

Where do disability benefits end? 

Where do child care benefits end?

Where does income support for seniors end?

Where do education costs end?

Where do public housing costs end? 

Where do costs for governance, roads, and public utilities end? 

They don't, of course.

And what you are complaining about is the fact that all of those services being provided to Indigenous people. 

Why should they not receive equal services to all other Canadians?

40 per cent of Canadians ... do not pay any effective income tax

https://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/taxes/trudeau-is-right-40-of-canadians-dont-pay-income-taxes-which-means-someone-else-is-picking-up-the-bill

And they all still receive services. 

Your "race-based" complaints are just nonsense ... of a particularly insidious nature.

How dare you reduce people to their race.  People are people and deserve the same level of services and taxation across the board.  Reparations to level the playing field for past wrongs is one thing, and difficult enough.  Permanent dependence is a form of enslavement because it kills any sense of personal investment and control   Autonomy is psychologically healthy.

 

[Realitycheck]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Aboriginals already HAVE their own country:  Canada.   What they need is to be treated equally, not at some level of very, very special privilege.

Obligations for wrongdoing are legitimate - but only for those actually wronged.   I believe we owe their descendants absolutely nothing that every other Canadian is not also able to access.  Race based anything is not only highly discriminatory, it is also just plain wrong.

In fact they don't. Like everyone else, they came here from elsewhere (Asia) and there is growing evidence they weren't the first ones here. So, like most of us, they were just born here.

[Altai]

19 hours ago, Army Guy said:

What a crock of shit....if turkey could not build roads then that was turkeys chioce....the west did not tell you no more roads.....Lets remember it was Turkey that wanted to join NATO and the western alliance for it's own protection....One day when you and your country grows up, your country can stand up and own it's own history....Frankly NATO would be better off without turkey

LoL you are just a waste of time as any other posters of this forum : ) If you were intented to learn, you could find thousands of proofs that how Western countries prevents other countries to develop. 

You dont need to go to back in the history, to the days how Turkiye's plane and rocket factories were closed. You can look at the nowadays, how Western countries are trying to prevent Turkiye's first nuclear power plant : ))) or you can look for how Western countries are trying to block Turkiye's oil and natural gas reserve rights in Mediterranean Sea.

As I always say, you are ignorant. I say you are ignorant because you are ignorant : ) the worst part, you are ignorant because you want to be ignorant in the issues which you dont want to hear truths about it.  This is the most dangerous human profile.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Altai

[jacee]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

How dare you reduce people to their race.  

It was you who claimed the existence of "race-based benefits", but you provided nothing to back up that claim.

I pointed out that Indigenous people simply get the same types of benefits and services as all Canadians. 

It is not clear whether people in reserve  communities get the same level of services: education funding levels per-student may still be inexplicably lower, for example. Medical services are more limited, water purification obviously not equitable, fresh foods not as accessible. Roads? Hydro? Not sure, but I wouldn't assume they're reliable. Public housing? ... we've all heard of the nightmare mould problems in reserve communities. Granted, we may have pest problems and disrepair in public housing in cities too, but not to the level of being condemned due to unhealthy-to-deadly mould contamination.

Equity in benefits and services is certainly a reasonable goal, but I don't think we've achieved it yet.

As for taxes ... per previous link ... balancing benefits received and income taxes paid ... 40% of Canadians pay no taxes. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by jacee

[Zeitgeist]

Has anyone done an analysis of overall employment levels on reserves?  Off reserve, when people can’t find work to pay the rent/mortgage, they generally move.  Unemployment and welfare are supposed to be temporary stopgaps.  Wherever there is inter-generational dependence on the state for income and housing, there are social problems.  That’s why I think reserves are largely bad for the human spirit, because they lock people into s particular location with the incentive of free land and no income tax.  That might be fine on a reserve with plenty of employment options, but how many such places exist?  

Freedom of mobility is part of what it means to be free.  I’m not suggesting taking reserves or territories from people, but if the community doesn’t see enough upside in staying put, and if staying put is only possible with outside government support, such places probably aren’t worth sustaining.  Bands should have the right to privatize and sell, as well as have transitional assistance to do so.  Maybe in some cases land swaps are the answer or joining other bands.  True long-term self-sustainability means generating wealth through employment, investment, and/or development, and setting aside a portion of the income to pay for services like health and education (taxation).  That’s how every healthy society does it in a modern society with modern comforts.  You want the services and comforts?   Have to work.  There are no shortcuts or free lunches.  Someone has to pay.  Sort out any outstanding owed funds within a reasonable statute of limitations and move on.  I wonder whether some people really want to move on.  

Edited April 2, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[jacee]

33 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 I wonder whether some people really want to move on.  

I'm sure they will do some of the things you suggest ... if they want to. 

But I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim of "race-based benefits" ... ???

VS my claim that benefits and services for Indigenous people are the same types as for all Canadians (though not to the same levels, perhaps). 

Edited April 2, 2019 by jacee

[jacee]

32 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Has anyone done an analysis of overall employment levels on reserves? 

You can check on the Statistics Canada site.

[cannuck]

2 hours ago, jacee said:

It was you who claimed the existence of "race-based benefits", but you provided nothing to back up that claim.

I pointed out that Indigenous people simply get the same types of benefits and services as all Canadians. 

It is not clear whether people in reserve  communities get the same level of services: education funding levels per-student may still be inexplicably lower, for example. Medical services are more limited, water purification obviously not equitable, fresh foods not as accessible. Roads? Hydro? Not sure, but I wouldn't assume they're reliable. Public housing? ... we've all heard of the nightmare mould problems in reserve communities. Granted, we may have pest problems and disrepair in public housing in cities too, but not to the level of being condemned due to unhealthy-to-deadly mould contamination.

Equity in benefits and services is certainly a reasonable goal, but I don't think we've achieved it yet.

As for taxes ... per previous link ... balancing benefits received and income taxes paid ... 40% of Canadians pay no taxes. 

Educational "services" off reserve are paid from provincial and municipal taxes.  On reserve, no taxes are paid, but education is provided on the Federal tax dollar.  Not the basic literacy foreseen by treaties, but an aboriginal can attend any school at any level for as long as they please.  AND, in many cases, they will be graduated from post-secondary institutions without that nasty bother of meeting the same academic standards of those who are paying tuition to attend.

Medical services on reserve are no different from any other small or remote rural community - except they are paid by a government to whom nobody on reserve pays any tax at all.

Fresh foods, road, electricity, water....all paid for by those in other remote communities from their earnings - all provided for by the great white government on reserves, and almost in all cases operated by the reserve (for which they are well paid by Ottawa) but fall into dissrepair since few bother to actually go TO the job of maintaining and operating.

Horrible problems with mould?  Well, no different from any other home in a moist environment when you don't bother to do any maintenance.  90% unemployment, unlimited access to resources to repair and maintain, but somehow it is white man's fault it isn't maintained??????

"We" have long ago achieved many things on behalf of the aboriginal population.  They, on the other hand, have achieved next to nothing from the endless resources and dollars they have been given (except, of course, to go into the gambling business with the mafia).

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Educational "services" off reserve are paid from provincial and municipal taxes.  On reserve, no taxes are paid, but education is provided on the Federal tax dollar.  Not the basic literacy foreseen by treaties, but an aboriginal can attend any school at any level for as long as they please.  AND, in many cases, they will be graduated from post-secondary institutions without that nasty bother of meeting the same academic standards of those who are paying tuition to attend.

Medical services on reserve are no different from any other small or remote rural community - except they are paid by a government to whom nobody on reserve pays any tax at all.

Fresh foods, road, electricity, water....all paid for by those in other remote communities from their earnings - all provided for by the great white government on reserves, and almost in all cases operated by the reserve (for which they are well paid by Ottawa) but fall into dissrepair since few bother to actually go TO the job of maintaining and operating.

Horrible problems with mould?  Well, no different from any other home in a moist environment when you don't bother to do any maintenance.  90% unemployment, unlimited access to resources to repair and maintain, but somehow it is white man's fault it isn't maintained??????

"We" have long ago achieved many things on behalf of the aboriginal population.  They, on the other hand, have achieved next to nothing from the endless resources and dollars they have been given (except, of course, to go into the gambling business with the mafia).

What you’re saying is what most people think, that the challenges Indigenous people face today have nothing to do with money, and if anything, it’s the guaranteed influx of money and services for nothing that has created an easy come, easy go attitude towards the benefits received. Moreover, it has meant abdication of responsibility and lack of autonomy, the very conditions of self-determination.  

I do think that a lot of hard work is needed to turn the culture around, and it has ultimately to come from within.  The problem with assistance is that it can be blamed for the problems, which is why I suggest a very simple charter going forward: Solutions to Indigenous affairs must come from within Indigenous communities and be revenue neutral, meaning no additional money can come from government beyond the rate of inflation.  

Indigenous must have all possible options on the table, including the right to privatize and sell land, which means opting out of the zero tax on reserve income benefit.  Indigenous status cards and HST exemptions continue.  However, Indigenous who choose to remain on reserve or Indigenous territory must develop a self-sustainability plan in order to continue to receive financial assistance at current levels, and there will be a gradual scaling back of support from taxpayer revenues, (which doesn’t include trust funds, leases, annuities, resource royalties, and other self-generated income).   The scale-back goal must be to get to zero non-Indigenous funding of reserves/Indigenous title lands and self-determination, except where the building of provincial and federal infrastructure require it.  The time frame may be extended over a long period if need be.  Provincial and federal laws still apply.  

The choice is simple, participate in the wider society and pay income and property taxes like everyone else, or stay on the free land and pay no taxes to the state, but generate income for yourselves and collect your own taxation locally to pay for local services.  That at least has to be the goal.  It’s a matter of figuring out the fastest and best way to get there.

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[jacee]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

90% unemployment

I can only find 2011 data,

First Nations 25-54 on reserve: 

47% employment overall, 65% with Postsecondary

Comparison non-aboriginal:

76% overall, 81% with Postsecondary 

Still a gap ... but not "90% unemployment"

 

[cannuck]

1 minute ago, jacee said:

I can only find 2011 data,

First Nations 25-54 on reserve: 

47% employment overall, 65% with Postsecondary

Comparison non-aboriginal:

76% overall, 81% with Postsecondary 

Still a gap ... but not "90% unemployment"

 

most of those "employed" (and I speak only from experience on SK, MB and ON reserves in the North) have "make work" jobs with the band.   I am sure the numbers are WAY different for Southern reserves.

Post secondary is easy:  just enroll in a Native Studies or SUNTEP or BUNTEP programme, don't bother going to classes, but you will be graduated.

[jacee]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

What you’re saying is what most people think, that the challenges Indigenous people face today have nothing to do with money, and if anything, it’s the guaranteed influx of money and services for nothing that has created an easy come, easy go attitude towards the benefits received. Moreover, it has meant abdication of responsibility and lack of autonomy, the very conditions of self-determination.  

I do think that a lot of hard work is needed to turn the culture around, and it has ultimately to come from within.  The problem with assistance is that it can be blamed for the problems, which is why I suggest a very simple charter going forward: Solutions to Indigenous affairs must come from within Indigenous communities and be revenue neutral, meaning no additional money can come from government beyond the rate of inflation.  

Indigenous must have all possible options on the table, including the right to privatize and sell land, which means opting out of the zero tax on reserve income benefit.  Indigenous status cards and HST exemptions continue.  However, Indigenous who choose to remain on reserve or Indigenous territory must develop a self-sustainability plan in order to continue to receive financial assistance at current levels, and there will be a gradual scaling back of support from taxpayer revenues, (which doesn’t include trust funds, leases, annuities, resource royalties, and other self-generated income).   The scale-back goal must be to get to zero non-Indigenous funding of reserves/Indigenous title lands and self-determination, except where the building of provincial and federal infrastructure require it.  The time frame may be extended over a long period if need be.  Provincial and federal laws still apply.  

The choice is simple, participate in the wider society and pay income and property taxes like everyone else, or stay on the free land and pay no taxes to the state, but generate income for yourselves and collect your own taxation locally to pay for local services.  That at least has to be the goal.  It’s a matter of figuring out the fastest and best way to get there.

 

Perhaps you could clarify: From where they are now in the process, how you suggest the government do it differently?

https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1100100030285/1529354158736#chp3

[Robert Greene]

I lost my temper with natives. Mainly, because I never had a problem with them, but I experienced extreme racism from one particular reserve. If you came out of a house, with a few drunk natives high on drunks, lecturing you about "Montana" and calling you "Easy White Boy", you might understand. 

I left the reserve, feeling that some natives are extremely creepy. I remember as soon as I walked in the guy grabbed my hand to shake it, held on it, and laughed in my face. "You're gonna be fun"

I guess it depends on the community, some natives enjoy playing games, and I feel like we need to show some tough love.

I felt like the leadership, has weaponized their citizens against white people.

Some reserves use some dirty tactics.

I felt bad throwing all natives under the bus, but after experiencing what I've experienced, I wanted to even the score.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Robert Greene

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

I lost my temper with natives. Mainly, because I never had a problem with them, but I experienced extreme racism from one particular reserve. If you came out of a house, with a few drunk natives high on drunks, lecturing you about "Montana" and calling you "Easy White Boy", you might understand. 

I left the reserve, feeling that some natives are extremely creepy. I remember as soon as I walked in the guy grabbed my hand to shake it, held on it, and laughed in my face. "You're gonna be fun"

I guess it depends on the community, some natives enjoy playing games, and I feel like we need to show some tough love.

I felt like the leadership, has weaponized their citizens against white people.

Some reserves use some dirty tactics.

I felt bad throwing all natives under the bus, but after experiencing what I've experienced, I wanted to even the score.

I actually have had similar experiences.  Nevertheless, we have to look at the sources of such mistreatment without at the same time accepting it.

[Zeitgeist]

11 hours ago, jacee said:

Perhaps you could clarify: From where they are now in the process, how you suggest the government do it differently?

https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1100100030285/1529354158736#chp3

Sounds good but of course it always comes down to specific details in each case.  

[mowich]

On 3/30/2019 at 8:23 PM, Zeitgeist said:

While there are many different ways that the tax revenues dedicated to Indigenous affairs can be spent, such as on improving housing or utilities, providing education and health care, or settling land claims, it is useful for government to know what percentage of income taxpayers are willing to spend on Indigenous affairs in general.  This money is in addition to any monies collected from trust funds, resource development, leases on Indigenous territories, and other sources of income for Indigenous peoples.

Interesting question, Zeitgeist but considering any money that is given to the natives is taken out of our taxes and the distribution of same is solely up to the government of the day, don't you think it is rather moot?  Just asking. 

[Realitycheck]

14 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

I lost my temper with natives. Mainly, because I never had a problem with them, but I experienced extreme racism from one particular reserve. If you came out of a house, with a few drunk natives high on drunks, lecturing you about "Montana" and calling you "Easy White Boy", you might understand. 

I left the reserve, feeling that some natives are extremely creepy. I remember as soon as I walked in the guy grabbed my hand to shake it, held on it, and laughed in my face. "You're gonna be fun"

I guess it depends on the community, some natives enjoy playing games, and I feel like we need to show some tough love.

I felt like the leadership, has weaponized their citizens against white people.

Some reserves use some dirty tactics.

I felt bad throwing all natives under the bus, but after experiencing what I've experienced, I wanted to even the score.

Seems as though indigenes are pretty much the same behaviour-wise, as everyone else.