Time to take on far-right terrorists

Zeitgeist · March 28, 2019

15 hours ago, Realitycheck said:

Well, you sure sound like a believer. Rational people don't refer to the Book Of Lies as "The greatest story ever told". Rather, the greatest lie ever concocted. As I pointed out earlier, mankind's ethical and moral standards were established and practiced long before xianity was invented. Nothing honours paganism with great fealty than xianity. Easter and xmas and many other so-called "xian" holy days and practices owe their origins to pagans. Since jesus is a myth and Buddha's existence highly questionable, what one is "following" is nothing more than older pagan practices and beliefs.

Religion is the collective wisdom of a culture, gathered over millennia, told through story-telling. It is true, not always or necessarily in the literal sense, but inasmuch as it tells the story of the human experience with great power and accuracy. I have no time for someone who dismisses the Bible as a "Book of Lies" because it illustrates ignorance about how critically the Bible has informed our culture. It's the central text of our culture, and you can find its themes, such as the fall from grace, in Milton and Blake, the Romantic poets, epistolary writing from St. Augustine to the philosophe Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Whether you're an atheist or not, it's important to be familiar with stories such as Genesis, the Book of Job, the Gospels, St. Paul's letters, and many more important books and stories. You can read them strictly as literature if you prefer. If you don't know these stories, you really have no business commenting on Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. What's more, you have no real context for comparing other great religions to them, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, and so on. You also don't have a context for understanding other great literature such as Shakespeare (who wrote a version of the Bible). You also don't really have a foundation for understanding the ideas that supported early monarchies, such as divine right, and much of the early utopianism that led to early labour reforms during the Industrial Revolution, including the political reforms of the French Revolution, the birth of the U.S. republic, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, the list goes on. You also won't even understand atheists like Hume and the Nihilism of the late 19th century, the birth of socialism (and utopian socialism), Marxism, and so on. Basically, you won't understand our culture.

Not done yet: If you don't think that our democratic political institutions and our laws, which are based on precedents set by public morality throughout the centuries, and our idea that people have a natural light (sense of truth), have a grounding in the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament as well as the two commandments of the New Testament (Love God and love thy neighbor), you are very mistaken. Most people may not remember or recognize these original influences, but I'd be very careful not to dismiss their importance. Yes, some Christian traditions, feast days, saints and so forth derived from Greco-Roman, Egyptian, ancient Assyrian, and other traditions. Don't forget that many Old Testament books and stories are very old and based on much older texts. That's my point. You will see similar traditions in the ancient civilizations of the Indus river valley, in Persia, and so on. Far Eastern traditions have similar figures and beliefs. Many Hindus believe that Jesus is an incarnation of Vishnu, just like Krishna. Many Muslims think Jesus was a great prophet. Zoroaster lived to age 33 like Jesus and the religion has similar ideas of heaven and hell. Hindus believe we could be reborn thousands of times. Buddhists think we can circumvent that through overcoming suffering (through overcoming desire) and becoming enlightened. I could talk about Marduk, Apollo destroying Night, Isis and Osiris, son Horus. These are powerful stories, no matter how literal you think they are or are not.

I respect intelligent atheists who come by it honestly. What matters is learning, seeking to understand, and appreciating the value of ideas, whether religious, political, scientific, and so on. Read Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces and the idea of the Monomyth that is in just about every culture. People who discriminate against people because of their faith are missing the mark, because we all have different views or interpretations of things. It is fair to say that some faiths are more accepting of non-believers than others and that some faiths are healthier than others from a psychological and sociological perspective, but again, I'd need to know your particular brand of that faith. There are some radical fundamentalist Christians with whom I would disagree on many issues. There are also some very moderate Muslims who are respectful towards non-believers, though I do see a harsher position in Islam towards non-believers in the Muslim texts. Nevertheless, the important thing from a western perspective is that Muslims who immigrate to countries like Canada respect the rights and freedoms enshrined in our constitution and Charter. I think in practice the vast majority do.

In terms of white supremacists and anyone who takes pride in skin colour, that's an empty value. We need to get back into the belief that it's the content of character that matters.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Zeitgeist

Realitycheck · March 28, 2019

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Religion is the collective wisdom of a culture, gathered over millennia, told through story-telling. It is true, not always or necessarily in the literal sense, but inasmuch as it tells the story of the human experience with great power and accuracy. I have no time for someone who dismisses the Bible as a "Book of Lies" because it illustrates ignorance about how critically the Bible has informed our culture. It's the central text of our culture, and you can find its themes, such as the fall from grace, in Milton and Blake, the Romantic poets, epistolary writing from St. Augustine to the philosophe Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Whether you're an atheist or not, it's important to be familiar with stories such as Genesis, the Book of Job, the Gospels, St. Paul's letters, and many more important books and stories. You can read them strictly as literature if you prefer. If you don't know these stories, you really have no business commenting on Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. What's more, you have no real context for comparing other great religions to them, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, and so on. You also don't have a context for understanding other great literature such as Shakespeare (who wrote a version of the Bible). You also don't really have a foundation for understanding the ideas that supported early monarchies, such as divine right, and much of the early utopianism that led to early labour reforms during the Industrial Revolution, including the political reforms of the French Revolution, the birth of the U.S. republic, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, the list goes on. You also won't even understand atheists like Hume and the Nihilism of the late 19th century, the birth of socialism (and utopian socialism), Marxism, and so on. Basically, you won't understand our culture.

Not done yet: If you don't think that our democratic political institutions and our laws, which are based on precedents set by public morality throughout the centuries, and our idea that people have a natural light (sense of truth), have a grounding in the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament as well as the two commandments of the New Testament (Love God and love thy neighbor), you are very mistaken. Most people may not remember or recognize these original influences, but I'd be very careful not to dismiss their importance. Yes, some Christian traditions, feast days, saints and so forth derived from Greco-Roman, Egyptian, ancient Assyrian, and other traditions. Don't forget that many Old Testament books and stories are very old and based on much older texts. That's my point. You will see similar traditions in the ancient civilizations of the Indus river valley, in Persia, and so on. Far Eastern traditions have similar figures and beliefs. Many Hindus believe that Jesus is an incarnation of Vishnu, just like Krishna. Many Muslims think Jesus was a great prophet. Zoroaster lived to age 33 like Jesus and the religion has similar ideas of heaven and hell. Hindus believe we could be reborn thousands of times. Buddhists think we can circumvent that through overcoming suffering (through overcoming desire) and becoming enlightened. I could talk about Marduk, Apollo destroying Night, Isis and Osiris, son Horus. These are powerful stories, no matter how literal you think they are or are not.

I respect intelligent atheists who come by it honestly. What matters is learning, seeking to understand, and appreciating the value of ideas, whether religious, political, scientific, and so on. Read Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces and the idea of the Monomyth that is in just about every culture. People who discriminate against people because of their faith are missing the mark, because we all have different views or interpretations of things. It is fair to say that some faiths are more accepting of non-believers than others and that some faiths are healthier than others from a psychological and sociological perspective, but again, I'd need to know your particular brand of that faith. There are some radical fundamentalist Christians with whom I would disagree on many issues. There are also some very moderate Muslims who are respectful towards non-believers, though I do see a harsher position in Islam towards non-believers in the Muslim texts. Nevertheless, the important thing from a western perspective is that Muslims who immigrate to countries like Canada respect the rights and freedoms enshrined in our constitution and Charter. I think in practice the vast majority do.

In terms of white supremacists and anyone who takes pride in skin colour, that's an empty value. We need to get back into the belief that it's the content of character that matters.

A very scholarly response. However, it doesn't address the fact all religions are false and predicated upon mere mythology and outright lies. The morality and ethics you attribute to xianity were extant long before the xian mythos was devised. There is no god, are no gods. Jesus is a myth adopted from older pagan rising god myths, Moses is mythical and taken from an older Babylonian myth. There was no flood, the ark is an impossibility, adam and eve are myths, the sun never paused in the sky, hebrews were never slaves in egypt so exodus never took place , neither Mo nor Smith rode to heaven on a flying horse. Regardless of what inspiration the heavily flawed Book Of Lies may have provided to many imaginative people, it remains a faulty, contradictory work of primitive men who wondered where the sun went at night.

I have never understood why people would be proud of their skin colour or place of origin when they had no choice in the matter.

Zeitgeist · March 28, 2019

20 minutes ago, Realitycheck said:

A very scholarly response. However, it doesn't address the fact all religions are false and predicated upon mere mythology and outright lies. The morality and ethics you attribute to xianity were extant long before the xian mythos was devised. There is no god, are no gods. Jesus is a myth adopted from older pagan rising god myths, Moses is mythical and taken from an older Babylonian myth. There was no flood, the ark is an impossibility, adam and eve are myths, the sun never paused in the sky, hebrews were never slaves in egypt so exodus never took place , neither Mo nor Smith rode to heaven on a flying horse. Regardless of what inspiration the heavily flawed Book Of Lies may have provided to many imaginative people, it remains a faulty, contradictory work of primitive men who wondered where the sun went at night.

I have never understood why people would be proud of their skin colour or place of origin when they had no choice in the matter.

You merely represent one perspective and set of beliefs among the multitude, which is fine as long as you don’t try to impose your views on everyone else. This is a liberal democracy full of believers of different religious, atheist, agnostic, and ideological views. Respect the Charter and we don’t have a problem.

Realitycheck · March 28, 2019

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You merely represent one perspective and set of beliefs among the multitude, which is fine as long as you don’t try to impose your views on everyone else. This is a liberal democracy full of believers of different religious, atheist, agnostic, and ideological views. Respect the Charter and we don’t have a problem.

Reality is not subject to belief, only interpretation. The fact is, there is/are no god/gods. Thus all religions are false regardless of how many believe the contrary. There is a reason believers are called upon to have faith...because there is no proof. I have no difficulty with people being self-deluded. I definitely have a problem when they try to force their mythology and delusions upon others or upon society, as is happening in the US as we write.

jacee · March 28, 2019

On 3/26/2019 at 11:01 PM, Yzermandius19 said:

Anti-muslim rhetoric should be protected free speech. Holocaust denial should be protected free speech. Inciting and promoting hatred should be protected free speech.

Canada wouldn't know what free speech is, if it slapped them in the face. Canada is notorious for their hatred of free speech, hate speech laws are the prime example of that.

Awwww ... has the white supremacist got their knickers in a knot because 'inciting or promoting hatred' against Muslims is a crime in Canada?!

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html

jacee · March 28, 2019

On 3/27/2019 at 9:21 AM, GostHacked said:

There is no 'or you'll .. what?' And I am Canadian through and through I won't be going anywhere.

But Canada isn't the 'white nation' you're looking for! You'll have to look elsewhere.

DogOnPorch · March 28, 2019

8 minutes ago, jacee said:

But Canada isn't the 'white nation' you're looking for! You'll have to look elsewhere.

Like England, perhaps.

jacee · March 28, 2019

17 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The average person won't choose a decent path in most circumstances.

Wow.

You really hang out with the wrong people!

scribblet · March 28, 2019

16 minutes ago, jacee said:

But Canada isn't the 'white nation' you're looking for! You'll have to look elsewhere.

I don`t think anyone on here is looking for a `white nation` and implying that everyone or anyone who wants a stable, safe controlled immigration system is a racist, just debases actual of racism.

scribblet · March 28, 2019

22 minutes ago, jacee said:

Awwww ... has the white supremacist got their knickers in a knot because 'inciting or promoting hatred' against Muslims is a crime in Canada?!

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html

You seem to think everyone who has a problem with religious violence is a `white supremacist` - but that is part of the liberal agenda, demean, label and tarnish anyone who disagrees.

Realitycheck · March 28, 2019

15 hours ago, Saudi Monitor said:

The Islamic concept of the fitrah is supported by various psychological, sociological and anthropological evidence as there has been an extensive academic and scientific research exploring children's innate belief in God and of certain universal religious ideas.

Children are born believers in God, academic claims

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

In summary, to deny God who is self-evident truth is like denying the real world is actually real

The only thing self-evident is the fact there is no god. To believe there is, to believe in imaginary beings, people who never existed and events which never took place is a classic indicator of mental illness.

jacee · March 28, 2019

31 minutes ago, scribblet said:

I don`t think anyone on here is looking for a `white nation` and implying that everyone or anyone who wants a stable, safe controlled immigration system is a racist, just debases actual of racism.

'White nationalists' is what they call themselves.

This is the context of my response to Yzermandius19:

Anti-muslim rhetoric should be protected free speech. Holocaust denial should be protected free speech. Inciting and promoting hatred should be protected free speech.

Canada wouldn't know what free speech is, if it slapped them in the face. Canada is notorious for their hatred of free speech, hate speech laws are the prime example of that.

That's a white nationalist rant for freedom to organize to incite hatred against people of colour, Muslims being the favourite target these days.

DogOnPorch · March 28, 2019

9 minutes ago, jacee said:

'White nationalists' is what they call themselves.

This is the context of my response to Yzermandius19:

Anti-muslim rhetoric should be protected free speech. Holocaust denial should be protected free speech. Inciting and promoting hatred should be protected free speech.

Canada wouldn't know what free speech is, if it slapped them in the face. Canada is notorious for their hatred of free speech, hate speech laws are the prime example of that.

That's a white nationalist rant for freedom to organize to incite hatred against people of colour, Muslims being the favourite target these days.

Filled with hate, she is.

marcus · March 28, 2019

2 hours ago, jacee said:

Awwww ... has the white supremacist got their knickers in a knot because 'inciting or promoting hatred' against Muslims is a crime in Canada?!

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html

It goes without saying that I'm against Islamophobia, however, I am a proponent of free speech. I don't agree with muzzling people from speaking their mind. Even if I don't agree with what they're saying. That said, it is the law in Canada so this law of the country should be respected, even if I disagree with it.

What I find interesting are people like Argus, DogOnPorch, Betty, Skittles, et al., who begin howling and crying racism and hate when anything is said about anyone associated with Jewish people. Like for example, when Argus posted a comment made by some Imam about how he believes Mossad, a spy agency who is known for covert operations where innocent civilians have been killed, could have been behind the white nationalist terrorist's attack. This may or may not have been the case, but right away, Argus starts crying racism and hate for the Jews, by Muslims. Yet, he has no problem calling immigrants from the Middle East and Muslim countries goat herders and uneducated and dirty.

WestCanMan · March 28, 2019

14 hours ago, Realitycheck said:

Um, where is the proof? This is nothing more than hearsay.

It doesn't matter whether he lived or not. What matters is that he is a role model for people to look up to. Not an Adolf Hitler type. Get it?

WestCanMan · March 28, 2019

12 hours ago, marcus said:

What you're describing above happens often in the U.S., but not in Canada. It's rare that someone is in Canada without a status. A foreign worker would need a work permit to work. You can't just get an open work permit unless you are in a special situation.

Workers coming from outside of Canada usually go through a process called LMIA. Then they can get a work permit based on the sponsoring company who must abide by specific salaries.

It still happens here in the construction trades, that's a big chunk of the workforce.

And no, individual contractors don't have rules to follow regarding wages, and yes it's easy to pay people under the table.

GostHacked · March 28, 2019

2 hours ago, jacee said:

But Canada isn't the 'white nation' you're looking for! You'll have to look elsewhere.

That is really irrelevant as I was never seeking a 'white nation'. That is conjecture and projection on your part.

Am I for legal immigration? 100% YES

Am I for illegal immigration ? 100% NO

Should we vet people from certain nations with legal immigration ? 100% Yes

Should we deport revoke immigrants citizenship if convicted of terrorism? I lean to YES with caveats.

If you disagree with any of those notions I would suggest you find another place to live.

eyeball · March 28, 2019

On 3/27/2019 at 12:02 AM, WestCanMan said:

It's not "my" religion, I don't have any imaginary friends. But I am a Canadian and this country was founded on Christian principles, ideals, so I still respect the religion. I respect John A MacDonald too. I know he was a bad person by our standards, but he was good by the standards of his day and age, and an important stepping stone from a dark past into a better future. I like that our country can continue to grow and evolve, that it's not stuck in the mud - tied to a book from the deeply bigoted past.

You like that stepping stone from the recently bigoted past so much that you want to go back to it. Its good enough for your standards apparently.

WestCanMan · March 28, 2019

2 hours ago, jacee said:

Wow.

You really hang out with the wrong people!

My crowd is a-ok. You know what I'm talking about so steer clear of the cheap points.

To be honest, Canada isn't a great place to judge people's character. It's not super hard to make an honest living, so the temptation to commit 5 and 7 isn't that high.

The only commandments that come into play on a regular basis are 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10. Is that even the real list? 6,9 and 10 have lot in common.

And if we're being honest, most people here break number 8 more often than not. A full 50% of the people here lie more often than they tell the truth about other people.

Realitycheck · March 28, 2019

19 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

It doesn't matter whether he lived or not. What matters is that he is a role model for people to look up to. Not an Adolf Hitler type. Get it?

How can an imaginary man be a role model? There really isn't anything in the myth to look up to in any event. Unless you refer to these instances: https://io9.gizmodo.com/7-moments-in-the-bible-when-jesus-acted-very-un-jesus-l-1731054203 Very moral. very ethical, very worth emulating... <_<

WestCanMan · March 28, 2019

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You like that stepping stone from the recently bigoted past so much that you want to go back to it. Its good enough for your standards apparently.

What are you even talking about eyeball? Can you ever just tell the honest truth?

Just sit back one day and really think about your perspectives, think about where the planet is right now and what it would take for all people to move forward.

Most importantly, when you look back at history, don't do it with an agenda. Try and see both sides. Try to justify the actions of both sides, try to see what both sides did that was truly unjust but do so knowing that there have always been and always will be people using their own revisionist history lessons to turn people against one another.

jacee · March 28, 2019

21 minutes ago, marcus said:

It goes without saying that I'm against Islamophobia, however, I am a proponent of free speech. I don't agree with muzzling people from speaking their mind. Even if I don't agree with what they're saying. That said, it is the law in Canada so this law of the country should be respected, even if I disagree with it.

There is a distinction drawn between people "speaking their mind" to others privately (not a crime) and people organizing rallies in public spaces, or promoting their views publicly (online, distributing flyers, etc) in order to incite and recruit others against a particular group (a crime).

Tricky distinction perhaps, but the justice system is created for such, and it is a high standard for charges and convictions.

White Nationalists position themselves as defenders of 'free speech', and they push the boundaries intentionally to test the limits of society's tolerance and the law. I think such organized and intentional campaigns to villify a group are a different kettle of fish from individuals just "speaking their mind".

GostHacked · March 28, 2019

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

What are you even talking about eyeball? Can you ever just tell the honest truth?

Just sit back one day and really think about your perspectives, think about where the planet is right now and what it would take for all people to move forward.

Most importantly, when you look back at history, don't do it with an agenda. Try and see both sides. Try to justify the actions of both sides, try to see what both sides did that was truly unjust but do so knowing that there have always been and always will be people using their own revisionist history lessons to turn people against one another.

We can try to see it without an agenda. But that would be ignoring the fact that events through history are filled with agendas. And the ones revising history are the leaders, not the peons.

WestCanMan · March 28, 2019

1 minute ago, Realitycheck said:

How can an imaginary man be a role model? There really isn't anything in the myth to look up to in any event. Unless you refer to these instances: https://io9.gizmodo.com/7-moments-in-the-bible-when-jesus-acted-very-un-jesus-l-1731054203 Very moral. very ethical, very worth emulating...

Your mind is apparently broken RC.

1) It's totally irrelevant whether or not Buddha lived, because his followers believe that he lived and they try to emulate his actions. So you see, Buddha is a good role model even if it's just the idea of Buddha. He's a good role model now, even if he was actually a terrible role model in real life, because the enduring stories about him are all extremely positive.

That's point #1. It should be really easy to understand.

2) If those actions are the worst things that Jesus did in all his years then he truly was an amazing person. He had almost infinite power at his disposal and he even didn't kill a single person or take a single slave? Didn't rob a bank?

He has a laundry list of amazing things that he did for other people using his God-given powers, he didn't break a single commandment in all his life with all that power, and you're focusing on 7 items which an average person could do in a day and no one would even call the police.....? He definitely wasn't human even if he just had above-average power and managed to do the things mentioned so far in point #2.

Dude you're doing absolutely everything that you can to throw shade on decent people and destroy their legacy of mind-blowing accomplishments, for what? It's time for you to look in a mirror man. You're all about bearing false witness against people and that's ultra-pathetic. Not because it's "the 8th commandment", because it just speaks volumes about your integrity. Straighten up, fly right.

That's point #2. Own it. Change. Grow. The people who love you will benefit greatly from it.

WestCanMan · March 28, 2019

20 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

We can try to see it without an agenda. But that would be ignoring the fact that events through history are filled with agendas. And the ones revising history are the leaders, not the peons.

What's really scary is that Google is allegedly altering history now at the behest of politicians. If it's true, they're "Big Brother".