What export tariffs should Canada impose on the US?

[bush_cheney2004]

23 minutes ago, Machjo said:

Well, maybe it's a good thing. If we cannot trust the US, then it might be best for Canada to in fact gradually distance itself from the US over time. In that sense, Trump's tariffs might be a blessing in disguise as they would force Canada to pursue far more aggressive trade deals with other countries, tear up NAFTA, and just welcome the US tariffs as permanent or at least for as long as Trump is in power and even then keep the borders open to other states.

 

Agreed...and I have stated as much all along.  The Canadian economy is far too dependent on a single nation, and if Trump encourages Canada to diversify more, that is a good thing.

 

Quote

Another thing Canada might need to do is grow its population quickly to produce a larger domestic market. There could exist a few ways of doing this including making it easier for foreign nationals to work in Canada for example. Maybe for the next ten years, Canada should form a trade-war economy. It will probably expand our debt and make Canadians poorer at least in the short to medium term, but from a national security standpoint would also make us less prone to the kind of attacks Trump has launched against us.

 

If this were possible it would have happened already.  History tells us that Canada lacks sufficient domestic capital to leverage half a continent's natural resources with such a small population / domestic market.   Internal squabbling and regionalism have created more barriers to trade than Trump.

I would agree that it is Canada that has to make requisite changes for Canada, but it is not just reacting to a foreign president's actions.

Edited June 30, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Machjo]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed...and I have stated as much all along.  The Canadian economy is far to dependent on a single nation, and if Trump encourages Canada to diversify more, that is a good thing.

 

 

If this were possible it would have happened already.  History tells us that Canada lacks sufficient domestic capital to leverage half a continent's natural resources with such a small population / domestic market.   Internal squabbling and regionalism have created more barriers to trade than Trump.

I would agree that it is Canada that has to make requisite changes for Canada, but it is not just reacting to a foreign president's actions.

I'm in two minds here. Canada lowering trade barriers against the US benefits Canada but also makes it more vulnerable to fools like Trump. Let's say Canada raised trade barriers against the US decades ago in anticipation of Trump. Just think of all of the wealth Canada would have lost in that time. In that sense, the vulnerability might be worthwhile. We hurt now, but we've benefited for years until now. Are we prepared to close ourselves in and become a hermit kingdom just to protect against the eventuality of a fool?

 

I'd say we take our chances and lower our trade barriers against the US and the world, but only once Trump is gone before we lower them on the US. IN fact, we might want to lower them the day after Trump is gone just to stick it to him.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Machjo said:

I'm in two minds here. Canada lowering trade barriers against the US benefits Canada but also makes it more vulnerable to fools like Trump. Let's say Canada raised trade barriers against the US decades ago in anticipation of Trump. Just think of all of the wealth Canada would have lost in that time. In that sense, the vulnerability might be worthwhile. We hurt now, but we've benefited for years until now. Are we prepared to close ourselves in and become a hermit kingdom just to protect against the eventuality of a fool?

 

But it isn't/wasn't just Trump....Obama, Bush, and others have imposed tariffs and barriers before.   Bottom line, and basically agreeing, Canada "sold out" years ago because other choices were worse.   Trump the candidate was an "existential threat" to Canada's economy, but Trudeau/Freeland chose to wait for the smack in the face to actually happen, hoping to preserve the dependency (i.e. NAFTA).

I for one don't understand how a modern mixed market economy like Canada can cruise along with such risks without concern / Plan B.

 

Quote

I'd say we take our chances and lower our trade barriers against the US and the world, but only once Trump is gone before we lower them on the US. IN fact, we might want to lower them the day after Trump is gone just to stick it to him.

 

"Sticking it" to Trump just plays Trump's game the way he likes it....Trump does not have the same political vulnerabilties as conventional politicians.   Obama "stuck it" to Canada too, but he is still loved in Canada.   This is not consistent....or logical.   I agree with you that it is mostly...emotional.

[-1=e^ipi]

3 hours ago, Machjo said:

I have to question Trump's negotiating skills. TTP negotiators easily got concessions from Canada just through friendly negotiation whereas Trump can't get concessions from us even in a full on trade war.

I'd argue that it's nothing to do with Trump's negotiating skills. The inability of Canada to make changes to supply management is an entirely due to internal politics.

 

TPP could give concessions on dairy because that was negotiated by a previous government (Harper) that was willing to make such concessions.

 

However, ironically, due to Martha Hall Findlay and Maxime Bernier challenging the system, I think that has caused Trudeau and Scheer to take much more hardline positions. Scheer especially only won with 50.95% of the vote because of the dairy cartel.

 

Now Trudeau, Scheer and Singh are in an arms race to see who supports the awful supply management system the most.

 

The current set of politicians in parliament would rather see the country burn to the ground than give an inch on supply management.

 

The earliest that Canada will be able to make changes to supply management is 2023.

 

3 hours ago, Machjo said:

to react so emotionally as to have a part of me want a full on trade war just to save Canada's dignity even while my intellectual side knows that it's not a wise move, then how do you think most Canadians are reacting to Trump's belligerance? Heck, the latest polls are showing that 80% of Canadians want to fight back. And you know what, I bet that at least some of them would normally favour free trade under friendlier circumstances.

80% supporting retaliation is not the same thing as 80% supporting never ever giving an inch on supply management. There have been polls that ask Canadians if supply management should be put on the negotiating table, and most say yes. Canada should retaliate with proportional tariffs because reciprocity should be maintained, but that isn't the same thing as never putting the sacred cow of supply management on the negotiating table.

 

With respect to emotion, I think that (most) humans have a tendency towards tribalism. In the modern day, this takes the form of nationalism. This causes (some) people to have a strong irrational and emotional desire to believe that their tribe (Canada) is never wrong and that if the leader of another tribe (US) criticizes a policy of your tribe (supply management) then that means you should defend the tribe's policy at all costs to show your allegiance to the tribe (Canada). Evidence and the exact specifics of the policy of supply management do not really matter to most supporters of it. It's just tribalistic nationalism.

[Michael Hardner]

50 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

 With respect to emotion, I think that (most) humans have a tendency towards tribalism. In the modern day, this takes the form of nationalism. This causes (some) people to have a strong irrational and emotional desire to believe that their tribe (Canada) is never wrong and that if the leader of another tribe (US) criticizes a policy of your tribe (supply management) then that means you should defend the tribe's policy at all costs to show your allegiance to the tribe (Canada). Evidence and the exact specifics of the policy of supply management do not really matter to most supporters of it. It's just tribalistic nationalism.

Your post makes sense.  And this part about tribalism is especially important: both sides will use tribalism to gain support.  The dichotomy is that they absolutely don't believe in tribalism as they are engaging in discussions whose end result will necessarily sell some of the tribe down the river.  You would think that they could see that this tribalism comes back to bite you at some point.

[Machjo]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your post makes sense.  And this part about tribalism is especially important: both sides will use tribalism to gain support.  The dichotomy is that they absolutely don't believe in tribalism as they are engaging in discussions whose end result will necessarily sell some of the tribe down the river.  You would think that they could see that this tribalism comes back to bite you at some point.

That's why it's emotional, not intellectual. Trump stepped right into a hot steamy load there and so did Trudeau. Nationalism is all about emotion and should never be confused with a healthy patriotism.

[Machjo]

On the matter of politicians cowtowing ti the dairy lobby, I could the rise of an urbanist movement committing itself to boycitting all political parties and electing only independent candidates who will commit to having the federal government convert their municipality into a free economic zone and maybe even a special administrative region that would be exempted from all protectionist policies.

 

At one point, it was the west against the east with the rise of the Reform Party. Maybe we need a new fight between the cities and the countryside.

[taxme]

19 hours ago, Jimwd said:

Really ? Trudeau is offending the Europeans or is it trump? 

Trudeau only knows how to make himself look like a jerk. He loves to pretend that he cares. Give me a break. Look the picture here is plain and simple. Trump is looking out for America and not Canada or Europe. According to Trump Canada and Europe have got themselves better trade and tariffs deals at America's expense. Trump is out for a fair deal for America. It may come down to Trudeau having to cut that 270% tariff on dairy products. A tariff to protect the french Quebec dairy farmers and to help keep their dairy industry in business. 

What is needed here is no tariffs at all applied to any products in or out between our two nations. Let the best man/woman win. That is what they call free enterprise. Works for me. 

[taxme]

1 hour ago, Machjo said:

On the matter of politicians cowtowing ti the dairy lobby, I could the rise of an urbanist movement committing itself to boycitting all political parties and electing only independent candidates who will commit to having the federal government convert their municipality into a free economic zone and maybe even a special administrative region that would be exempted from all protectionist policies.

 

At one point, it was the west against the east with the rise of the Reform Party. Maybe we need a new fight between the cities and the countryside.

What Canada needs is more freedom and less government. Trump is dumping lots of rules and regulations that has stifled growth in America for decades. Our dear leaders in Canada need to do the same. It must be very hard for anyone to want to try and start up a business or project in Canada. There is just too much red tape to have to deal with thanks in part to environmentalists and native Indians. They are always out there trying to stop huge projects that can create thousands of jobs. The dairy industry in Quebec is one that our politicians always are out to protect.  

What Canadians need is more freedom, less government and less taxes. That should help grow the economy and help create thousands of new jobs big time. It is government that screws up every thing and makes life miserable for all because they listen too much to special interest groups a way too much.

I guess that the reason for the Reform Party to have died off was because it was not a real and true conservative party. And the leader Preston Manning was not much of a conservative leader at all as far as I was concerned. Manning ended up destroying the party rather than saving it. Manning was a wimp and nowhere near a leader like Trump. When Trump speaks everybody listens. 

[Machjo]

6 hours ago, taxme said:

What Canada needs is more freedom and less government. Trump is dumping lots of rules and regulations that has stifled growth in America for decades. Our dear leaders in Canada need to do the same. It must be very hard for anyone to want to try and start up a business or project in Canada. There is just too much red tape to have to deal with thanks in part to environmentalists and native Indians. They are always out there trying to stop huge projects that can create thousands of jobs. The dairy industry in Quebec is one that our politicians always are out to protect.  

What Canadians need is more freedom, less government and less taxes. That should help grow the economy and help create thousands of new jobs big time. It is government that screws up every thing and makes life miserable for all because they listen too much to special interest groups a way too much.

I guess that the reason for the Reform Party to have died off was because it was not a real and true conservative party. And the leader Preston Manning was not much of a conservative leader at all as far as I was concerned. Manning ended up destroying the party rather than saving it. Manning was a wimp and nowhere near a leader like Trump. When Trump speaks everybody listens. 

I can agree with deregulation and reducing government spending. I'm less keen on slashing taxes. The US debt is ballooning so fast right now Trump makes even Obama look like a fiscal conservative. With government debt ballooning out of control on both sides of the border, North America's future is bleak.

[paxamericana]

37 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I can agree with deregulation and reducing government spending. I'm less keen on slashing taxes. The US debt is ballooning so fast right now Trump makes even Obama look like a fiscal conservative. With government debt ballooning out of control on both sides of the border, North America's future is bleak.

Freedom ain't free. It cost a buck o five as we like to say it here in the south. We see Canada's reciprocal tariff as a childish temper tantrum. Big brother is doing what's good for you Canada, stop fighting it. Remove your supply management and barriers. Open your self up to trump. He will lead you to greatness. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadian news media are getting in on the boycott of U.S. products, as if Canadians need to be educated on what/how to do it.

Once again, for reasons I will never understand, the usual punching bag product called "ketchup" (not catsup ?) is in the forefront:

 

Quote

The caveat with buying Canadian is that, while it might help some domestic workers, it might hurt others, too.

Take ketchup, for example, which is on the list of products targeted by Canada’s tariff countermeasures in response to U.S. duties on steel and aluminium.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4298091/buy-canadian-guide-pitfalls-trade-war-trump/

 

What is it with angry Canadians and ketchup ?   Why is ketchup always the bad guy ?    Is Heinz just easier to remember ?  Because it is German (Nazis !!!) ?

I mean seriously....do Canadians consume ketchup like beer ?   In the fridge, a bottle of ketchup lasts at least one year in our house....and yellow mustard (French's, not Heinz) lasts so long we throw it out because of the best buy date.

 

Then there is this apologetic quip about nationalistic pride...because I guess Canada lacks such pride unless they are boycotting American ketchup !

Quote

Still, Wulfraat believes Canadians should still try to send Washington a message.

“That’s really what’s needed: A strong, almost nationalistic pride, that says, ‘Hey, we’re not going to get pushed around. We’re going to do something here to help our country,'” he said.

“And I really hope that it happens.”

 

So on Canada Day 2018, show your Canadian pride by not passing the evil Yankee ketchup (or mustard) at a picnic.

[Machjo]

4 hours ago, paxrom said:

Freedom ain't free. It cost a buck o five as we like to say it here in the south. We see Canada's reciprocal tariff as a childish temper tantrum. Big brother is doing what's good for you Canada, stop fighting it. Remove your supply management and barriers. Open your self up to trump. He will lead you to greatness. 

Especially when it comes with interest on debt payments.

[betsy]

What export tariffs should Canada impose on the US?

 

None. 

Tit-for-tat will only escalate,  what's the point?  We'll eventually capitulate in the end......after we've been damaged so badly!  So, why should we wait for that to happen?

 

The practical thing to do is to get to that negotiating table as soon as possible, and start de-escalating.   Try to reach a deal.

In the mean-time, Canada should look for a new leader.   We need someone with experience, and common sense. 

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by betsy

[Jimwd]

19 hours ago, taxme said:

Trudeau only knows how to make himself look like a jerk. He loves to pretend that he cares. Give me a break. Look the picture here is plain and simple. Trump is looking out for America and not Canada or Europe. According to Trump Canada and Europe have got themselves better trade and tariffs deals at America's expense. Trump is out for a fair deal for America. It may come down to Trudeau having to cut that 270% tariff on dairy products. A tariff to protect the french Quebec dairy farmers and to help keep their dairy industry in business. 

What is needed here is no tariffs at all applied to any products in or out between our two nations. Let the best man/woman win. That is what they call free enterprise. Works for me. 

Trump is a liar and a conman who cares only about Trump. He paid 25 million dollars for defrauding Americans citizens. All of his products and and Ivanks's products are made in China a and mexico.

That's what conmen do. They con you. However Conman can't con intelligent people as easily as they can fools.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Jimwd

[Jimwd]

8 hours ago, Machjo said:

Especially when it comes with interest on debt payments.

Big brother who sold his  soul to a conman?

[Jimwd]

8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canadian news media are getting in on the boycott of U.S. products, as if Canadians need to be educated on what/how to do it.

Once again, for reasons I will never understand, the usual punching bag product called "ketchup" (not catsup ?) is in the forefront:

 

 

What is it with angry Canadians and ketchup ?   Why is ketchup always the bad guy ?    Is Heinz just easier to remember ?  Because it is German (Nazis !!!) ?

I mean seriously....do Canadians consume ketchup like beer ?   In the fridge, a bottle of ketchup lasts at least one year in our house....and yellow mustard (French's, not Heinz) lasts so long we throw it out because of the best buy date.

 

Then there is this apologetic quip about nationalistic pride...because I guess Canada lacks such pride unless they are boycotting American ketchup !

 

So on Canada Day 2018, show your Canadian pride by not passing the evil Yankee ketchup (or mustard) at a picnic.

Or we can be real patriots and insult POWS and  Praise putin. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Jimwd

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, Jimwd said:

Or we can be real patriots and insult POWS and  Praise putin. 

But but you forgot fascist somewhere.

[Jimwd]

3 hours ago, paxrom said:

But but you forgot fascist somewhere.

Forgot fascist? Um he’s your president ,how could I forget?

 

[taxme]

19 hours ago, Machjo said:

I can agree with deregulation and reducing government spending. I'm less keen on slashing taxes. The US debt is ballooning so fast right now Trump makes even Obama look like a fiscal conservative. With government debt ballooning out of control on both sides of the border, North America's future is bleak.

It's all bleak thanks to our useless puppet on a string politically correct liberal/socialist/communist politicians who don't give a dam about anything except for money and power and glory. If politicians cared one bit they would be leaving the running of the country to we the people who pay their salaries. But with their constant promoting of liberalism and socialism and communism programs and agendas ideology we are now stuck with way to much government, too many rules and regulations, too much and many taxes, and hardly any freedom left at all. Politicians put both countries in a deep state banksters debt situation because they listen more too corporations and special interest groups who have no interest in any countries well being only their own. Slashing taxes is a great incentive because those taxes will be put back into the pockets of the people and back into the economy creating more jobs and of course more taxes for the government to waste. LOL. 

[taxme]

19 hours ago, paxrom said:

Freedom ain't free. It cost a buck o five as we like to say it here in the south. We see Canada's reciprocal tariff as a childish temper tantrum. Big brother is doing what's good for you Canada, stop fighting it. Remove your supply management and barriers. Open your self up to trump. He will lead you to greatness. 

More like it should be for our dear leader politicians to open up the country to new development and not less. They need to stop listening to environmentalists and Native Indians and liberal socialists and allowing them to slow down the economy and projects and jobs. Trump has eliminated many regulations that stifled growth in America which will now allow the creation of many new projects and jobs for Americans. Indeed, if more of our Canadian politicians would listen too Trump more and stop trying to fight him we would do really well in Canada. Canada needs America for it's survival. Canada apparently does 80% of it's business with America. To have that taken away or reduce would be a disaster for Canada and Canadians and would really turn Canada into a third world country. All Trump is asking for is free trade not unfair trade.

Again, I must repeat, why are there any tariffs at all between our two countries. We are suppose to be good neighbors and great friends. Good neighbors and great friends do not need to fight against each other like this. It is too much big government that is the problem and not the solution to we the people. My opinion. Right now it works for me. 

[taxme]

7 hours ago, Jimwd said:

Trump is a liar and a conman who cares only about Trump. He paid 25 million dollars for defrauding Americans citizens. All of his products and and Ivanks's products are made in China a and mexico.

That's what conmen do. They con you. However Conman can't con intelligent people as easily as they can fools.

Yup, that is right alright, and that the Trudeau liberals are making a big time fool out of you. You have been conned by Canadian politicians for decades now. So what's your point, fool? 

[bush_cheney2004]

Great time for a trade war with Canada, because Canadian workers are far less productive than American workers:

 

Quote

The drive to see Canada do better is driven by the fact that U.S. employees in advanced industries consistently add far more value to their economy than their Canadian counterparts, according to a recently released report from the Washington-based Brookings Institute and the Martin Prosperity Institute at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Business.

The study – titled A Path To Prosperity - found that slightly more than two decades back, in 1996, the gap in productivity between the average Canadian and U.S. worker in advanced industries was a relatively thin 17 per cent. Today, the gap has ballooned to 100 per cent – U.S. employees are twice as productive as their Canadian counterparts.

Canada faces a serious productivity problem

 

 

[Jimwd]

18 hours ago, taxme said:

Yup, that is right alright, and that the Trudeau liberals are making a big time fool out of you. You have been conned by Canadian politicians for decades now. So what's your point, fool? 

I seem to be unaware of when Trudeau paid 25 million for committing Fraud on the Canadian  people as a private citizen like Trump did.

Do you have a link?

Edited July 2, 2018 by Jimwd

[taxme]

On 7/1/2018 at 3:29 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Great time for a trade war with Canada, because Canadian workers are far less productive than American workers:

 

 

As long as the voting fools in Canada keep voting in liberals, socialists and communists Canada will always be way behind America. It would appear as those mentioned have a mighty  good grip on the minds of Canadians. I just hope that Doug Ford is not one of them. Only time will tell where he stands.