The most powerful militaries in the world

[?Impact]

8 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The Arrow was cancelled because it was going to cost $15 million CDN per unit.in 1958 dollars.

So what did the replacement CF-101 and CF-104 "widow maker" cost?

[Queenmandy85]

30 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

So what did the replacement CF-101 and CF-104 "widow maker" cost?

I don't want to go off on an Avro Arrow tangent. I seem to recall that class of aircraft was about $3million but I stand to be corrected. I do remember Colonel MacKinnon saying the $15 million was far and above other aircraft and beyond the reach of the defence budget.

[eyeball]

12 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Eyeball, if you have a chance?

They both put us on a path of dependence, starting with Diefenbaker.

I suppose when our defender basically became a patron saint to dictatorships around the world the usual Canadian political suspects were in no position to do anything but smile and lambaste one another for either not supporting the military, sucking up to 'our' ally or joining in on their military adventures.  This whining and back and forth about the military has been going on and on around here forever but I'm a lefty and when I hear lefties being fingered as the assholes who emasculated our military I feel like...wtf did I do?

The price of our dependency apparently comes with a requirement that we accept, support or at least keep our mouths shut about the dictatorships associated with our alliances but I'm not willing so...I don't like be counted amongst the assholes.

This is why I think our military operations abroad should be funded by war-bonds - let people put their own money where their mouths are and leave me out of it.  

[eyeball]

14 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Ok, so Pearson and Trudeau are toady's. What are Diefenbaker and Harper, the ones that actually made the original decisions?

Lickspittles of the very same sort, especially from where I'm sitting - to their left.

Edited March 1, 2018 by eyeball

[eyeball]

12 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I don't want to go off on an Avro Arrow tangent. I seem to recall that class of aircraft was about $3million but I stand to be corrected. I do remember Colonel MacKinnon saying the $15 million was far and above other aircraft and beyond the reach of the defence budget.

Cheap compared to the priceless principles our grandparents died for and sacrificed %25 of their economy to uphold.

Especially in hindsight.

Edited March 1, 2018 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

...The price of our dependency apparently comes with a requirement that we accept, support or at least keep our mouths shut about the dictatorships associated with our alliances but I'm not willing so...I don't like be counted amongst the assholes.

 

Yes you do, remember....like all good blue herons...you don't question how the eagles operate, even if it costs you a few eggs.

[bush_cheney2004]

13 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I don't want to go off on an Avro Arrow tangent. I seem to recall that class of aircraft was about $3million but I stand to be corrected. I do remember Colonel MacKinnon saying the $15 million was far and above other aircraft and beyond the reach of the defence budget.

 

The Arrow project was under capitalized to survive into production, and was doomed without a foreign export market.    The same is true today...Canada cannot afford (economically or politically) to invest in the design, development, and production of major defence system platforms.    Canada lacks both the means and the will to do so.

But Canada still wants a piece of the action (sub contracts), and that is why it has paid hundreds of millions in membership dues for programs like the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Jobs = Votes

 

[Queenmandy85]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

This is why I think our military operations abroad should be funded by war-bonds - let people put their own money where their mouths are and leave me out of it.  

That is a really good idea. As Gwynne Dyer said in his introduction to his radio project War on Ideas on CBC in about 1978, "If you can't take a joke, you should not have a Defence budget." I have always advocated having a large military but we should never get involved in wars in the Middle East. I am now beginning to question my youthful fascination with returning to having the fifth largest military in the world. What for? We are surrounded by the US, China, and Russia. If we are going to be invaded, it would be one of them. Unlike 1939, it would be a come-as-you-are war. We would need to have a standing force in the millions. In my youth, we fantasized about defeating the 'yankee invader' with guerrilla warfare. We had no concept of what that entails. The US is not a threat. If they were, there is nothing we can do about it. It has been pointed out to me that Russia is a threat and I responded that nuclear weapons should be the answer. The consequences of nuclear war are hundreds of millions dead and survivors living in the dark ages at best. The reality is, we have as large a military as we can support. To expand the Defence budget, we have to take money from some where else.  the largest expenditure of the federal government is transfers to seniors. That is not an option. Seniors vote. Gutting health care is not an option. Our only option is to stick with NATO and NORAD and do what we can, but for the love of God, stay out of the Middle East. 

 

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Yes you do, remember....like all good blue herons...you don't question how the eagles operate, even if it costs you a few eggs.

Yeah but eagles starve on occasion too and the cost is not worth the price.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Yeah but eagles starve on occasion too and the cost is not worth the price.

And whilst the eagle soars, it still shits everywhere.

[Queenmandy85]

Eagles are the stupidest bird there is. I had one in my yard that was afraid to fly and another who had a branch break under him and never thought to let go until I yelled at him just before he hit the water. Dumb. and noisy to boot.

[bush_cheney2004]

6 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 The US is not a threat. If they were, there is nothing we can do about it.

 

The U.S. is very much a threat (economically, politically, militarily, etc.) to Canada,  and what Canada has done about it is to increase dependence on the Americans.

Some "leaders" in Canada considered the election of an isolationist, protectionist President Trump as an existential threat to Canada, but it was true before that.    This is one of the reasons that some Canadians watch America so intently ("elephant...mouse")

[Omni]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. is very much a threat (economically, politically, militarily, etc.) to Canada,  and what Canada has done about it is to increase dependence on the Americans.

Some "leaders" in Canada considered the election of an isolationist, protectionist President Trump as an existential threat to Canada, but it was true before that.    This is one of the reasons that some Canadians watch America so intently ("elephant...mouse")

And one of the reasons currently is to listen to the latest stupid statement coming out of the bone spur idiot's mouth, but more importantly to follow how he kowtows to his mentor Putin. 

[Queenmandy85]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. is very much a threat (economically, politically, militarily, etc.) to Canada,  and what Canada has done about it is to increase dependence on the Americans.

Some "leaders" in Canada considered the election of an isolationist, protectionist President Trump as an existential threat to Canada, but it was true before that.    This is one of the reasons that some Canadians watch America so intently ("elephant...mouse")

I find it embarrassing to have Canada asking to be exempt from US trade policies. We are not entitled to American charity and it is unseemly to beg for it. We need to get some back bone and, if we are unsatisfied with US policy, get out and beat the bushes for business partners in Europe and Asia. Canadian business has a history of being lazy. Trade with the Americans is low hanging fruit. President Trump is responsible to the US electorate and if they want to alter their trading arrangements, that is their right. I know that seems self-evident, but there are many Canadians who don't seem to understand this.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I find it embarrassing to have Canada asking to be exempt from US trade policies. We are not entitled to American charity and it is unseemly to beg for it. We need to get some back bone and, if we are unsatisfied with US policy, get out and beat the bushes for business partners in Europe and Asia. Canadian business has a history of being lazy.

 

It's worse than that...Canada lacks sufficient domestic capital to invest in and capture such markets.   As a matter of national policy, Canada has begged for more foreign direct investment to offset this reality.   Americans own about 50% of Canada's manufacturing base, and U.S. and other foreigners own 70% of oil/bitumen production.

 

Quote

Trade with the Americans is low hanging fruit. President Trump is responsible to the US electorate and if they want to alter their trading arrangements, that is their right. I know that seems self-evident, but there are many Canadians who don't seem to understand this.

 

Some Canadians want it both ways....access to the largest economy in the world while hating the country/government at the same time.   If Trump goes through with steel and aluminum tariffs, specifically not excluding Canada, it will be another test for Trudeau to "stand up for Canadians" even though dependence on the U.S. has never been greater.

 

[Omni]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Some Canadians want it both ways....access to the largest economy in the world while hating the country/government at the same time.   If Trump goes through with steel and aluminum tariffs, specifically not excluding Canada, it will be another test for Trudeau to "stand up for Canadians" even though dependence on the U.S. has never been greater.

Trump should actually study the trade numbers between Canada and the US before he blathers on about trade deficits. I know reading is not his forte but maybe he should get educated before making a fool of himself yet again.

[Queenmandy85]

BC, if it were easy, it wouldn't be fun. There will be some pain but it's a big world out there. A dose of adversity may be what Canada needs. We pay lip service to sovereignty but achieving it requires motivation and sacrifice. We could have a large military but it would require sacrifice and commitment. The UK may show us the way with Brexit.  Maybe a new government in 18 months will bring a change in the wind. I doubt it but I learned some time ago, nobody can predict the future. 

 

[DogOnPorch]

Canada forgot that the military is a business. A BIG business that drives the development of nearly every civilian technology we all hold dear.

We treat it as a pure liability. We can spend billions on everything but veterans who we hold in a bizarre contempt as a nation.

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Canada forgot that the military is a business. A BIG business that drives the development of nearly every civilian technology we all hold dear.

We treat it as a pure liability. We can spend billions on everything but veterans who we hold in a bizarre contempt as a nation.

 

Agreed....and certainly an element of anti-Americanism rolled in as well.   As has been discussed before, Canada was ashamed to report U.S. awarding medals to Canadian Forces in Afghanistan, including a world record sniper kill using a McMillan TAC-50.

Edited March 1, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Omni]

15 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Canada forgot that the military is a business. A BIG business that drives the development of nearly every civilian technology we all hold dear.

We treat it as a pure liability. We can spend billions on everything but veterans who we hold in a bizarre contempt as a nation.

Yep, where would the US economy be without the military industrial complex. Gotta keep those wars going so the pay checks don't bounce.

[DogOnPorch]

Sid Meier's is smarter than you think...

It is a game...with winners and losers. Only sore losers don't get to flip over the game board anymore...

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed....and certainly an element of anti-Americanism rolled in as well.   As has been discussed before, Canada was ashamed to report U.S. awarding medals to Canadian Forces in Afghanistan, including a world record sniper kill using a McMillan TAC-50.

 

Agreement. 100%

[?Impact]

14 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada lacks both the means and the will to do so.

Canada's GDP is three times that of Sweden - means has nothing to do with it.

14 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Jobs = Votes

Sounds like Congressmen wheeling and dealing to get a share of military procurement from their district. So what if it drives up the cost 100 fold, they can buy votes that way.

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

("elephant...mouse")

Ever see an elephant around a mouse?

[cannuck]

On 2/28/2018 at 10:34 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

It was Mike Pearson's Minister of Defence, Paul Hellyer, who started the dismantling of the Canadian Forces.

Thanks for catching that.   Yes, Hellyer was indeed one of the Red Torries under that nitwit Pearson, but nothing was really done to impact the forces until Trudeau was in with Cadieux as Minister (some gift!!).  I think it was '69 when the crap really hit the lilly pad.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Canada's GDP is three times that of Sweden - means has nothing to do with it.

 

Sweden can...Canada can't.