Why Israel does not want a sovereign Palestinian state

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, Bonam said:

95% of the world's population doesn't believe that Jerusalem is Israel's capital? Guess they've never bothered looking on a map. 

You response is much too facile, but indicates that you are ok with ignoring those opinions.

[OftenWrong]

Wondering what the reaction will be when the US Embassy moves to Jerusalem?

"I strenuously object!"

Edited December 23, 2017 by OftenWrong

[marcus]

21 hours ago, Bonam said:

Doesn't matter what Trump says. He's just some reality tv bully who happened to be elected president of the US. He'll be around for a few years, a blink of an eye compared to how long Jerusalem has been around for. Israel chooses its own capital regardless of the approval of other countries, even America. 

It doesn't matter what Israel says. Israel doesn't get to choose all of Jerusalem as its capital, since, East Jerusalem doesn't belong to Israel.

Edited December 24, 2017 by marcus

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎12‎-‎23 at 10:18 PM, marcus said:

It doesn't matter what Israel says. Israel doesn't get to choose all of Jerusalem as its capital, since, East Jerusalem doesn't belong to Israel.

Your comment is illogical. It simply projects your own subjective personal bias that Israel as a Jewish nation does not matter. You have nothing to contribute to the thread other than spewing Israel is shit responses.

 

 

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎12‎-‎06 at 12:03 PM, marcus said:

It's for security reasons.

If you question it, you are an anti-semite.

That attempt to hide behind a false anti semite accusation to try make your comments legitimate is pale and transparent. Your words speak for themselves and they indicate you support terrorism and Muslim fundamentalist extremism and came on this board engaging in hateful comments. Period. Your playing the victim of being accused of anti Semitism is a joke. Its a tactic that is spent.

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎12‎-‎06 at 8:16 AM, GostHacked said:

'And calling the Palestinians FAKE does not help that argument. In the end this is nothing more than a land grab under the guide of 'security' for Israel. Because there is more expansion taking place. That is a POLICY of Israel to keep expanding into the occupied territories.

And you are right, the illegal Israeli settlements are a problem for Palestine, Israel AND it's neighbors.

So if Israel packed up and dismantled all the illegal settlements in the occupied territories, what would that really mean for Israel.  I'd be interested to hear what you have to rant about.

So what about this idea of moving the capital of Israel to Jerusalem instead of Te-Aviv? I am sure that's gonna cause a shitstorm of backlash. It's already happening.

1. Please provide the words from me where I called Palestinians fake. I  never stated this. You again fabricate words I did not state.

2.You might want to pass on your second comment to Hudson Jones who also lies and claims I give unconditional support to Israel.

3. In regards to your third comment you are not interested in what I have to say, you clearly indicated that by placing an insult, i.e., "what you have to rant about". This shows again you are a condescending individual with a patronizing attitude clearly showing contempt and rudeness for anyone you disagree with.

4. Finally Israel has as much right to call Jerusalem its capital as do a second Palestinian nation if it came to be or for that matter Christians.

 

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎12‎-‎04 at 6:05 PM, Hudson Jones said:

Your unconditional love and support for a human rights violator is evident. I guess this is how Harvey Weinstein's yes-men reacted to complaints about Harvey.

You keep repeating that I support terrorist groups, yet you have never been able to show proof of this. Why? Because I don't. But you go ahead and keep repeating it, because that's what the theatre likes to do. 

I say, Israel should remove the illegal settlements and illegal occupation and then you come out and announce that my support for international law is support for terrorism. Screw you.

Some of the leading advocates of human rights and critics of Israel's violations of international law against the Palestinians are Jews. Your anti-semite card is old and rotting. Your song and dance and the theater you want to shove down people's throats is failing. Israel is not a victim. They are a terrorist state that continues to violate international law.

Why do you want to know my real name, Rue? What does that have anything to do with my criticism of Israel's violations of international law?

In regards to your first comment provide the words where I approve human rights violations by anyone-they do not exist. Provide the words. 

Next in the second sentence of your first comment, you made a comment about Harvey Weinstein yes men. It has nothing at all to do with the topic of the thread but shows how you make anti Jewish slurs and reveal you hate Jews and think if you throw in an insulting reference about a Jew, its relevant to the  All it does is reveal you as a Jew hater and if Marcus or Ghost or Omni can not understand why your Harvey Weinstein comment is anti semitic good for all of you. It speaks loudly you condone it with your silence.

I in regards to your second sentence  I state it again based on your positions on this forum which are public record and anyone can find by putting in your name and reading back what you have written, your  calling Zionism a cancer that needs to be wiped out and your words  supporing the tacticst Hamas, the PA, Hezbollah, Iran use  illustrate your support of a terrorist war to wipe out Israel as a Jewish nation. All anyone has to do is re-read your many posts to see the references you have made.

In regards to your third sentence you lie again. I never said what you claimed. Provide the words. They do not exist. Its what you do. Lie.

In regards to your fourth  sentence you again use the tactic of good Jew v. bad that  you have used continuously on this board. You try suggest that if a Jew agrees with you somehow they are more valid than a Jew that does not.  The religion of the person stating their opinion is immaterial. The fact you try make it material is a blatant and classic example of you being an anti semite and playing the Jew card. Your argument is as irrelevant as the fact  that there are Muslims who support the presence of Israel on the West Bank. By the way I do not support Israeli settlements on the West Bank as Ghost confirmed and I have stated many times. That  doesn't make me a good or bad Jew but it most certainly   makes you a bigot for trying to suggest it does Your good Jew bad Jew argument is a spent tactic. The fact a Jew might agree with you or not agree with you does not make his opinion any more or less valid. The fact you repeatedly try suggest it does speaks to your bigotry and anti Semitism.

In regards to your last question  I am calling you out as someone who from the get go has fabricated a false English name sounding personna to mask the fact that you are a Muslim extremist. Can I make that any clearer?

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Rue

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎12‎-‎12 at 11:46 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

A century on, Balfour's Declaration needs a few changes; it's the Palestinians who are getting the homeland, actually a series of them if Naftali Bennett and his friends have anything to do with it, disconnected from each other and controlled by the Israeli state. The solution will not be one state or two states but 1.1 states. Arab land in Area C will gradually be annexed, the euphemisms employed to obscure this fact doing terrible violence to the English language in the process, and as few Arab voters as possible will be absorbed into Israel. 

You seem to be unaware of what Jordan is and how it was created.  You also assume Gaza was part of the Balfour declaration How about you stop posing and go read what the Balfour declaration said.

[SpankyMcFarland]

14 hours ago, Rue said:

You seem to be unaware of what Jordan is and how it was created.  You also assume Gaza was part of the Balfour declaration How about you stop posing and go read what the Balfour declaration said.

I've read what he said, thank you. See how I take the high road there? You can too. 

IMHO Bennet's proposal of Area C settlement is Apartheid in all but name. 

[kactus]

Post deleted

Edited December 30, 2017 by kactus

[Rue]

11 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I've read what he said, thank you. See how I take the high road there? You can too. 

IMHO Bennet's proposal of Area C settlement is Apartheid in all but name. 

Do you call Jordan a Palestinian  apartheid state? It was created illegally from 90% of Palestine and prevents Jews from being citizens in its state and it was and has always referred to itself in its charter as a Jew free  Palestinian state and in fact is. How about the 900,000 Jews expelled from the Arab League of Nations?  Were they equal citizens in their nations and asked to leave because of equality or was it ethnic cleansing hmmm?

Do you point out that in the Arab League Nations, practice sharia law which states that a non Muslim is inferior legally to a Muslim and can not own land or do business directly with a Jew and must live in specific areas and not intermix with Muslims and their election rights for representatives may not even exist or are limited as is their physical movement day to day? Hmmm? In your world do you have any awareness of what Sharia Law is and what dhimmitude is and how non Muslims live in Muslim states? You want to talk apartheid? Do you talk of the slave trade now going on which ships black Muslim Africans and Fillipinos, Indonesians, Pakistanis and Bangla Deshis to Arab countries as slave labour? Who you? Have you mentioned Qatar has a population of only  250,000 and has another 300,000 non citizens who have no legal rights and service them? Have you any idea how Palestinians are treated in Arab League nations let alone Christians, Jews, Bahaiis, Zorostreans, Kurds, Berbers, Yazidi to name a few groups?

Of course not.

Now the designated areas on the West Bank are problematic legally but I have explained it in terms you can not grasp and that is, where Israel has caused a legal problem is not in going on to uncontested land that was never part of a sovereign country but in administering Israeli settlers with civilian law, but non Israeli Palestinians on the West Bank including 250,000 Jews who do NOT recognize the validity of the state of Israel by its military governorship. By not using the same type of administration for both it breaks an ctual international law. That is a legal issue you and the anti Israelis on this board can not grasp.

As for the restrictions on Palestinians and their movement, where you make an epic failure once again calling it apartheid, is that this exact same set of restrictions is implemented exactly the same on Israeli settlers. I know because unlike you I was there and the spit into the face of Israeli soldiers comes from both Israelis and Palestinians something you have zero clue about. IDF are spit on by both sides. You don't have a clue because you can not understand both Israelis and Palestinians on the West Bank are subject to the same security restrictions, the exact same. What you have no clue about is that Palestinian children are taken to and treated in Israeli hospitals and even the leaders of the PA and Hamas sent their families for treatment inside Israel.

What you do not also understand is that only some of the land disputes are between Israeli settlers and Palestinians on a federal state government level. In fact the vast majority of land disputes are not between Israelis and Palestinians but between non Israeli Palestinians, i.e., those Muslim Arabs who came to Palestine from the 1920's to present date and have illegally taken over land on the West Bank from Palestinians who were there prior to the 1920's and who have been there since.

You don't have a clue that the inter Palestinian land titles dispute created a civil war between Palestinians and Arafat in a panic, blew up the land titles office on the West Bank so neither incoming Muslim Arabs or older Muslim Arabs on the West Bank would have a legal title basis to fight one another and distract from his war against Israel.

You don't get there are 250,000 Hasidic Jews in and around Hebron that are not Israeli, have never been Israeli and do not believe in Israel's existence but simply because they are Jews are discriminated against and treated as inferiors by Palestinian Muslims who believe they need to be expelled.

You do not get that the Palestinian Authority and Hamas believe in sharia law and dhimmitude an Islamic legal system that does not separate the religion from the state and denies any right of any Jew, Christian, Druze, non Muslim  to any private land title.

You don't get it because you limit your reality to a few anti Israeli internet sites.

90% of East Jerusalem has land titles in the name of Christian chuches which the PA and Hamas reject. Israel, the state, pays rent for use of such land, the PA and Hamas do not recognize it just as they do not recognize any Jewish or Christian land rights anywhere in the Middle East not just in pre 1967 Israel because of their belief in sharia law which defines non Muslims as not being capable of owning land let alone being  nationality. Read the charters of Hamas and PA and Jordan and the Arab League states.

Get back to me when you figure out what dhimmitude is and what the difference is between a Muslim who came to Palestine from outside Palestine  and a Jew who came to Palestine from outside Palestine.

In the Palestinian myth, any Muslim, any one, who self identifies as Palestinian is. If a Jew identifies as an Israel, that is not acceptable. Palestine as defined by Hamas and the PA is all of Jordan, Israel and the West bank and parts of Syria and Lebanon. But hey why let the facts get in your way.

You have the internet.

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Rue

[SpankyMcFarland]

Have you come across the term 'whataboutery'? It's where a wrong done by one group is justified by referring to a wrong done by another group. I can talk about any of those issues in the appropriate place e.g. a thread on that topic. This thread is about a sovereign Palestinian state.

Let's narrow this debate for a moment to the WB. I am simply quoting Bennett's own words on the matter. His proposal is for no Palestinian state in the WB, rather 'autonomous' enclaves controlled by Israel. They sound very like Bantustans to me. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[OftenWrong]

17 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Have you come across the term 'whataboutery'? It's where a wrong done by one group is justified by referring to a wrong done by another group.

That's a fake word used by mainly leftists, to try to nullify an argument. It attempts to disassociate cause and effect. All things happen for a reason, and for every action there's a reaction. Tradition, culture, memory, history, all things the far left seeks to eradicate.

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 2018-01-01 at 12:32 PM, OftenWrong said:

That's a fake word used by mainly leftists, to try to nullify an argument. It attempts to disassociate cause and effect. All things happen for a reason, and for every action there's a reaction. Tradition, culture, memory, history, all things the far left seeks to eradicate.

The word you are probably thinking of there is whataboutism which has been used by Soviet and pro-Russian commentators as well as many others including Mr. Trump. Whataboutery is associated with both sides in Northern Ireland, many of whom were never leftist in any way. The meaning is the same:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

This form of rhetorical argument is also called 'you also' or 'tu quoque'. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland

[GostHacked]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-palestinians-jerusalem-territory-peace-deal-1.4469671

Quote

On Sunday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party unanimously urged legislators in a non-binding resolution to effectively annex Israeli settlements built in the West Bank.

 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-palestinians-jerusalem-territory-peace-deal-1.4469671

 

 

The two state solution is going to be slowly strangled. 

[OftenWrong]

11 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The two state solution is going to be slowly strangled. 

That's ok. After about 60 years of trying, there isn't enough good will to make it happen anyway.

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

That's ok. After about 60 years of trying, there isn't enough good will to make it happen anyway.

 

Does anyone think this'll ever compel us to mind our business and stay out of it?

[GostHacked]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

Does anyone think this'll ever compel us to mind our business and stay out of it?

Negative. That is how nations are born and destroyed.

[DogOnPorch]

The Arabs started the war...followed a Nazi involved in the Holocaust...an international terrorist...and now a rabid anti-Semite.

They can all stick their two state BS where it belongs.

[GostHacked]

On 12/29/2017 at 11:22 AM, Rue said:

Your comment is illogical. It simply projects your own subjective personal bias that Israel as a Jewish nation does not matter. You have nothing to contribute to the thread other than spewing Israel is shit responses.

 

 

His comment is spot on. East Jerusalem does not belong to Israel.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

His comment is spot on. East Jerusalem does not belong to Israel.

 

Says you, anyways. Nobody care what the Arabs think even though they openly threaten violence if they don't get their way. Threats only work so well.

[SpankyMcFarland]

If Israel wishes to be judged by the deplorable standards of its Arab neighbours then 1.1 will be fine. 

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

If Israel wishes to be judged by the deplorable standards of its Arab neighbours then 1.1 will be fine. 

 

The Israelis didn't start the war. The Arabs did. I know that is lost on the history challenged. But the losers don't get to call the shots...especially when they started the fight.

[SpankyMcFarland]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

The Israelis didn't start the war. The Arabs did. I know that is lost on the history challenged. But the losers don't get to call the shots...especially when they started the fight.

To summarize your argument - might is right. That has a 19'th century flavour to it. 'Losers' are still human beings with rights.