Why Israel does not want a sovereign Palestinian state

[bush_cheney2004]

15 minutes ago, marcus said:

It's time to acknowledge the violators and to punish them. The punishment has already begun with the BDS movement, which has shaken the violators and their apologists.

 

Go for it, but the sitting Canadian government has condemned the BDS movement and will not cooperate.

 

Quote

Parliament has voted by a wide margin to condemn the growing international Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign being waged against Israel for what is alleged to be the Jewish state's failure to accord equal rights to Arabs in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/parliament-votes-to-reject-campaign-to-boycott-israel/article28863810/

 

 

[marcus]

23 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Go for it, but the sitting Canadian government has condemned the BDS movement and will not cooperate.

If we were to wait for the government to do the right thing, we would be waiting for a while. Just like the fight against Apartheid South Africa, the people around the world have to start the fight, before the governments step in.

Not to worry, the Canadian government will change its tune, once enough Canadians know about Israel's violations and it becomes a voting issue.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, marcus said:

Not to worry, the Canadian government will change its tune, once enough Canadians know about Israel's violations and it becomes a voting issue.

 

Sure it will...any day now.

In the mean time, Canada has a free trade agreement with the State of Israel, not Palestine and its designated terrorist organizations.

[marcus]

7 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Sure it will...any day now.

In the mean time, Canada has a free trade agreement with the State of Israel, not Palestine and its designated terrorist organizations.

BDS has recently started and it's already having a big impact. Enough that it's making the human rights violators and their apologists scrambling around, trying to resist the boycotts. 

 

[Altai]

Because want to have something is soo anti-semific.

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎24 at 7:17 PM, marcus said:

There is no myth that Israel is occupying and stealing land.

This is part of the denial of the truth and part of the theatre that Israel and its apologists try to sell us. 

Security Council resolution 242, emphasized "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war,".

There are two interpretations of this matter:

A) The rest of the world's interpretation, including Canada's: 

Occupied Territories and Settlements

Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

Link

B ) Israel's interpretation which is of course, more b.s. theatre

I'm not sure, I could be wrong.. but maybe Micronesia agrees with Israel's stance?  

The time to debate the laws that applies to the land are over. There is no dispute outside the dispute the mouthpieces try to make.

It's time to acknowledge the violators and to punish them. The punishment has already begun with the BDS movement, which has shaken the violators and their apologists.

You will note in Marcus's response he ignores s.42 and 43 of the Hague convention of 207. Its what he does. If the actual law he falsely misrepresents is shown, he changes the subject. He switches to the 4th Geneva Convention and refuses to discuss the actual relevant law and legal sections, 42 and 43 of the Hague Convention. He instead engages in the myth that the 4th Geneva Convention over-rides legally, these sections and their definition of occupation. It most certainly does not. Ask Marcus to provide the legal case law that says s.42 and 43 do not apply to the term occupied land anymore. He can not because it does not exist.

The Fourth Geneva Convention is not even relevant to the issue of the legal definition of  occupation as I shall explain. However let's first point out  the  UN Human Righrs Council panel that Marcus refers to was in fact Aran League of Nations and other states who do not recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state which in fact makes them all legally conflicted and holding a vested interest in politically declaring anything to do with Israel invalid. This panel had and has ZERO I repeat ZERO legal power or jurisdiction to interpret or enforce  the 4th Geneva Convention let alone s.42 and 42 of the Hague Convention the actual relevant law.

In fact the  statement they made and any UN resolution are and have never been legal rulings or binding. They are political comments. They can not be enforced they merely state political opinion not legal opinion.

.In fact Christine Chanet, the French judge who headed this U.N. inquiry, stated and I quote:

“To transfer its own population into an occupied territory is prohibited because it is an obstacle to the exercise of the right to self-determination.”

There is no occupied territory. S.42 and 43 make it clear for the West Bank to be "occupied" it would have had to belong to a sovereign nation before Israel went onto the Wewst Bank. This is not the case. From a layman's perspective people feel since Israelis are on the West Bank that makes it occupied.  The fact is it does not in law. It makes it disputed but not occupied. Marcus can try ignore s.42 and 43 and depend on the ignorance of the public which does not know the difference between the legal term "occupation" and the layman's term 'occupation" to advance his subjective opinion, but it does not make it law and this is precisely why he switched the topic from the relevant law to a non relevant convention that has NOT and never defined any definition of occupation other than what is in s.42 and 43

In fact, Article 49 of the Geneva Convention was drafted following the Second World War, during which time millions of people were deported, displaced and massacred. In the case of the Jews and Roma s, outright genocide was committed. In fact and this is what makes Marcus' script which is a PA-Hamas script, odious is that Article 49 was created to prevent another mass forced deportation of Jews and Roma or anyone else from European countries, the term " The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."..referred to a sovereign nation like Germany going into another sovereign nation and removing its people and killing them. There was no forced removal of Muslims from Israel and a systematic extermination of them as was done to the Jews in Europe which is what  Article 49 refered to. Marcus repeats a script created by ex Nazis after WW2 who were welcomed to Egypt, Syria and Iraq as heros and created the myth this article was invented for Palestinians. It never was precisely because there was n o sovereign nation when Israel went into the West Bank.

To point out why people like Marcus lie and misrepresent Article 49 to try suggest it applies to the Palestinians one must understand the law. He knows you will not take the time to research it. In fact the International Commission of the Red Cross clarified  article 49's real meaning  in 1958 by stating and I quote:

 “It(s.49)  is intended to prevent a practice adopted during the Second World War by certain Powers, which transferred portions of their own population to occupied territory for political and racial reasons or in order, as they claimed, to colonize those territories. Such transfers worsened the economic situation of the native population and endangered their separate existence as a race.”

Palestinians are not a race. In fact Arafat and the Arab League and all Palestinian leaders ridiculed using the term "Palestinian" to describe Muslims on the West Bank or in Israel and it was only after King Hussein threw Arafat out of the West Bank in 1967, Arafat invented the phrase to mean Muslims of the West Bank. In fact Arafat tried to kill King Hussein in the Black Sabbath uprising of 1967 and seize the country and failed.  In fact Jordan was created illegally in violation of international law by Britain violating its Middle East mandate which Winston Churchill admitted in his memoirs and it was ironically Churchill who created this scheme. He seized 90% of land promised Jews for a country and created a non Jewish state he called Trans-Jordan which still refers to itself as the Palestinian state of Trans-Jordan. In fact this nation provided automatic citizenship to any non Jew claiming to be a Palestinian and excluded Jews from citizenship and still does to this day. It never declared the West Bank part of Jordan and in f act in 1967 said to Arafat after it expelled him to Tunisia that it wished nothing more to do with the West Bank since the people there made it clear they did not wish to be annexed by Jordan. Jordan left creating a vacuum of leadership on the West Bank. It became a place where Palestinian terrorists at will attacked pre 1967 Israel.

The script Marcus wants you to swallow depends on you not  understanding just how small the West Bank and Israel pre 1967 are and why Israel had to go into the West Bank to prevent terror attacks. The so called settlers were in fact used as early warning look out posts. Today with satellite technology and sophisticated surveillance equipment people on the ground may no longer be as necessary but if there was to be any settlement with Israel, without the PA and Hamas et al's  de-militarizing and giving up their agenda to turn Israel into a Muslim state there will never be any chance of Israel withdrawing. When Israel withdrew from Gaza the very day it withdrew Hamas and the PA began attacking and to date remain in a declared state of war. Israel has had many border wars with Gaza and now faces  terror attack possibilities daily from the West Bank and in East Jerusalem from Palestinian extremists.

Israel has had the same issue with Lebanon. Lebanon was used by Hezbollah to attack and kill Israelis. Hezbollah claimed it only armed itself and attacked Israel because Israel was inside Lebanon. It said it would disarm the moment Israel left. The day Israel left, it attacked into Israel proper, has ever since and has a public agenda and constitution like Hamas and the PA calling on the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state and the turning of it into a Muslim state.

Let us again be clear, Lebanon, Syria, the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and over 300 other Muslim extremist terrorist groups are in a declared state of war to turn Israel into a Muslim state and kill all the Jews that are currently there. Marcus does not have the integrity to come on this forum and admit he believes only a Muslim state should exist on the West Bank, Jordan and Israel and reflect his extremist Muslim fundamentalist views. He won't admit his agenda the same way Hudson Jones hides from me and slipped up and stated on this forum he considered Zionism a cancer that needs wiping out then had the audacity to try pretend it did not refer to wiping out Israelis and was just a figure of expression.

Let's be clear what Marcus misrepresents, its Article 49 of the Geneva Convention. He doesn't have the integrity to acknowledge s.42 and 43 of the Hague convention. He thinks if he ignores them they poof go away. Article 49 referred to the forced transfer of population that resulted in endangering a conquered SOVEREOGN nation's existence, not settlement to  open areas even if an occupation took place.

The lie Marcus engages in is that the people of the West Bank are all displaced Muslims from Israel. This is a falsehood. The fact is Muslims did not leave Israel and now have citizenship, legal, political, economic and land title rights NO Jew has in a Sharia law nation.

The lie Marcus engages in reinvents  the people of the West Bank as all being Palestinians. They are no more Palestinian or less Palestinian than any Jew in Israel or the West Bank.

The fact is the vast majority of Palestinians on the West Bank are descended from non Palestinian Muslims who flooded the West Bank in the 1920's when Britain orchestrated their mass migration to prevent a Jewish state from forming. They in fact came in and took land from the Palestinians who were there. In fact in 1967 Arafat blew up the Land Titles Office on the West Bank because it showed the majority of land title owners were illegal and were MUSLIMS from neighbouring nation who stole or forced the land away from actual Palestinians.

That script is ignored. The myth Abbas pushes is that the Muslim migrants to Palestine were already there for 1,500 years an invention completely repudiated by even Muslim historians. This is the same Abbas whose Ph.d thesis at the University of Moscow argued there was no holocaust.

Here is another falsehood Marcus engages in. He is aware that Article 2 of the Convention he now quotes can not be any clearer in stating that the 4th Geneva Convention only would apply to 2 or more high contacting parties. The international community never acknowledged Jordan's occupation of the West Bank and Jordan gave up any occupation of it and never made it part of their nation and have no interest in it.

Egypt never bothered to annex Gaza and in fact created the Gaza Strip as an open air prison to imprison Palestinians  and prevent them from going to Egypt.  There has been no high contracting party for Israel to have entered into this convention with.  No  Palestinian Arab state ever existed throughout human history let alone at the time Israel entered the West Bank. Marcus would have you suspend the law, pretend it does not exist, reinvent history to pretend there is a Palestinian state and always was. In fact it was Israel who offered numerous times to recognize a Palestinian state only to be told Palestinians in the PA and Hamas and their other terror cells would never stop their delcared war to rid the Jewish state and take it back as a sharia law state. It was Arafat who told the entire world he lied, engaged in bad faith negotiation and only used peace talk as a stalling tactic to regroup. To this day Marcus and Hudson Jones and the spambots will not come on this forum and state the obvious, that no Palstinian leader will recognize Israel as a Jewish state ever.

Marcus et al will not come on this forum and acknowledge the San Remo Resolution of April 25, 1920 and the Mandate for Palestine of July 24, 1922, Judea and Samaria, East Jerusalem, and Gaza were all supposed to be part of a Jewish state and these agreements are still legally  relevant and don't disappear because they don't have the integrity to discuss them. The Resolutions I refer to Marcus will not acknowledge and  Article 80 of the UN Charter states that all mandates of the League of Nations are still valid. That he will deliberately ignore pretending only s.242 applies and is a law.

Marcus engages in falsehoods. He poses as citing the law but he cites no law and no legal opinion that is binding in court because he can not. What he has done in past posts when advised Professor Eugene Rostow, former Dean of Yale Law School,stated in reference to the applicability of the San Reoni Resolution that:  “A trust never terminates when a trustee dies, resigns, embezzles the trust property, or is dismissed. The authority responsible for the trust appoints a new trustee, or otherwise arranges for the fulfillment of its purpose.”  he ignored that opinion as did Hudson Jones. They have nothing from any lawyer or Judge to say otherwise to that point.

He can misrepresent all he wants that the Palestine Mandate ceased to exist in Israel and Jordan when Israel and Jordan  obtained independence, according to Professor Rostow c “its rules apply still to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, which have not yet been allocated either to Israel or to Jordan or become an independent state.”

He repeats what I have argued on this forum for many years and that is,legally speaking, the Armistice Lines of 1949 represent nothing more than the positions the contending armies finished at the conclusion of Israel’s War of Independence.

Marcus and Hudson Jones also ignore leading international law expert Julius Stone who also opined that Article 49 relates to the invasion of sovereign states not disputed territories.Stone also argued that the history behind the drafting of Article 49 of the Geneva Convention had nothing to do with the scenario now happening on the West Bank.

In fact for Marcus' position to  hold true and Article 49 applies and over-rides s.42 and 423 of the Hague Convention he would not only have to pretend there is a sovereign state that is occupied but he also has to pretend there has been a "serious dilution of the native population" of Palestine. That would not just include Palestinian Muslims but Palestinian Jews, Druze, Christians, who the Palestinian leaders and terror cells do not acknowledge as having the same rights as Palestinian Muslims as citizens. Not only that, the Palestinian population if we call it that has not been diluted its exploded in size. The Marcus Hudson Jones Zionists are Nazis script tries to create a scenario of genocide of Palestinians. There's been no genocide, just the exact opposite, a population explosion.

Keep this in mind. Palestinians are the only persons defined as refugees in the way they are. For any other person of the world to be considered a refugee they must have been born in a country they were forced to flee for political reasons. In the case of Palestinians, they are in fact people who were NEVER born in Israel and most are descended from Muslims who were never Palestinian to start with but "occupied" Palestine displacing actual Palestinian Muslims.

What Marcus doesn't have the integrity to admit is that in his definition of Palestinian, any Muslim (no Jew) if he calls himself a Palestinian is one. That's the test. You merely say you are Palestinian, and presto you are. That means you have a right to return to Israel and be given citizenship and land there. That is the position of the PA, Hamas, et al and this they say is why they will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state. If they did that, their fiction that any Muslim who wants to all himself a Muslim should be allowed automatic citizenship AND land in Israel pre 1967. The word "law of return"  is also interesting. In the myth of the Palestinian who returns to Israel, when they never came from there at any time in history.

As well, since the end of World War II, no territorial dispute in the world has been defined as occupied territories, except in Israel’s case.

 

[marcus]

More useless copy/paste from the theatre.

There is no controversy on where the world stands.

Who cares what I think. Stop obsessing over me. Stop trying to pretend that this is a unique perspective.

So what does the world, outside of Israel, think of international law and how it applies to Israel's occupation?

Occupied Territories and Settlements

Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

Link

Edited November 27, 2017 by marcus

[Rue]

In his response BDS has recently started and it's already having a big impact  to my statement about s.42 and 43 of the Hague convention being the operative definition for "occupied", Marcus used the following responses and I quote..

 

"There is no myth that Israel is occupying and stealing land.

This is part of the denial of the truth and part of the theatre that Israel and its apologists try to sell us."

"It's time to acknowledge the violators and to punish them. The punishment has already begun with the BDS movement, which has shaken the violators and their apologists."

"BDS has recently started and it's already having a big impact. Enough that it's making the human rights violators and their apologists scrambling around, trying to resist the boycotts. "

I would suggest when you read the above words the only theatre comes from the writer claiming to be "Marcus". These are classic propaganda scripts. The pith and substance of them is to incite hatred. Please note they do not distinguish between the Israeli state government, any of its policies, Israeli citizens, or ANYONE who believes Israel has a right to exist as a state. They are all demonized.

He is well aware BDS is a political exercise that is meant to punish all Israelis indiscriminately for existing as Israelis in a Jewish state and being Jews and Israelis. That's its mandate. Marcus supports what he thinks is a boycott precisely because it punishes and demonizes all Israelis.

In one breath he demonizes all Israelis indiscriminately with his references and of course supports a boycott to punish all Israelis indiscriminately.

This is and has always been his agenda and I would argue words like  "punish" and "punishment" reflect his actual feelings about any Jew who dares be an Israeli.

As for the myth BDS is "punishing"  the Jews of Israel or its "supporters"  as for the theatre of urging on the punishment of Israeli demons I might suggest his desire for "punishment" is in his head:

 

https://www.haaretz.com/blogs/david-s-harp/.premium-1.599763

https://ukmediawatch.org/2015/06/19/the-bds-movement-is-failing-part-1/

https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/07/26/the-epic-failure-of-the-bds-cultural-boycott/

http://occamstypewriter.org/stevecaplan/2014/07/19/cultural-and-academic-boycotts-why-the-bds-movement-is-an-embarrassment-and-a-failure/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/culture/.premium-1.772686

 

[Rue]

30 minutes ago, marcus said:

More useless copy/paste from the theatre.

There is no controversy on where the world stands.

Who cares what I think. Stop obsessing over me. Stop trying to pretend that this is a unique perspective.

So what does the world, outside of Israel, think of international law and how it applies to Israel's occupation?

Occupied Territories and Settlements

Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

Link

1-Lol, you really want to continue accusing me of theatre with the scripts you are using?

2-You do not speak for the world.

3-You third sentence sounds quite conflicted. You refer to yourself as a "this" and your opinions as not being "unique". Your right on the latter. As for the former, the fact you refer to yourself as a "this" and try  detract from your actual identity is interesting.

4-In regards to the last question you could care less. To start with you won't even acknowledge the actual laws relevant to the issues you discuss. Instead you engage in so me myth that a UN resolution, let alone Resolution 242 defines what "occupation" means in international law. You clearly indicate you fabricate the law by passing off your subjective political opinions as if they are laws the world applies.

Your last question has been answered time and time again. The very same countries you think don't recognize Israel as a Jewish state trade with it and acknowledge it has the very same right to exist as a Palestinian state, unlike you.

Your diversionary  tactic of trying to switch from your agenda to incite hatred against Israelis for existing as Israelis in a Jewish state by trying to refer to Israeli settlements has not worked. To start with you've used it one too many times. Next, I doubt besides me anyone reads your crap anymore than they do mine.

Lol speaking about obsessions your burning desire to punish Jews for being Israeli is pathetic.

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Rue

[jacee]

On 24/11/2017 at 9:39 AM, Rue said:

The fact is Marcus, Hudson Jones et al, remain unable and unwilling to state their actual agenda which is to support turning Israel's current Jewish state into a Sharia law Muslim one.

Oh Rue, you still flogging that dead horse? 

Two states is the only viable solution, Israel within it's legal borders. 

Waiting ... waiting ... 

[marcus]

There shouldn't be any confusion.

Israel is here to stay here, within its legal borders. See 1967 borders.

Israel should not be expanding its borders and should not be stealing Palestinian land and should remove the occupation that enables this land theft and human rights violations to continue.

Those who do not want a Palestinian State try to complicate the conversation by pretending that those who want a Palestinian State, want it on Israel's land. This is not true. Israel already has its internationally recognized borders. They should remain within that border. The West Bank and East Jerusalem belongs to the Palestinians. Anyone who doesn't agree with that, is going against what the official stance of the world is, including Canada's.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

... Anyone who doesn't agree with that, is going against what the official stance of the world is, including Canada's.

 

 

Actually, Canada (and the United States) are very bad examples in this regard, as both have built many "settlements" on native lands, established reservations, stolen resources, and continue numerous human rights violations to this day.   Israel will continue to occupy so called Palestinian territory as long as it needs/wants to, regardless of the world's official stance.

[GostHacked]

I guess this means that Rue really has no problem with the illegal settlements?

[Rue]

On 11/27/2017 at 9:20 AM, jacee said:

Oh Rue, you still flogging that dead horse? 

Two states is the only viable solution, Israel within it's legal borders. 

Waiting ... waiting ... 

You come onto a recycled script from "Hudson Jones"  that flogs its piss on Israel spam, and you accuse me of flogging a dead horse. My how selective. Imagine that. Run along and be selective with someone else. 

[Rue]

On 11/27/2017 at 1:20 PM, marcus said:

There shouldn't be any confusion.

Those who do not want a Palestinian State try to complicate the conversation by pretending that those who want a Palestinian State, want it on Israel's land. This is not true. 

 

I make no hesitation in stating the only confusion being disseminated is the above comment from Marcus. I clearly state from previous conversations he has acknowledged the constitutions of Hamas and the PA and knows what they say and so the above statement by him is an example of him restating a falsehood, a lie, a false statement. 

Here is where to find the Hamas constitution:

http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

Its words referring to taking back Israel pre-1967 as well as all of Jordan as well as the West Bank and Gaza and turning them all into a sharia law state could not be any clearer:

"The Land of Palestine

2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity."

Here have Marcus explain Article 13:

Article Thirteen [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

Marcus is also quite well aware Hamas does not recognize Israel as a Jewish state can these words be any clearer?...

 

" The position toward Occupation and political solutions

18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.

19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.

20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."

The above words do not refer to just illegal settlements as Marcus is well aware.

Here have him explain Article 28 below and please note these words at the end of article 28 which state:"Israel by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population defines Islam and Muslims." This is precisely why on other posts Hudson Jones now hides from as he does from me on this thread, he stated Zionism was a cancer in need of wiping out.

Article Twenty-Eight The Zionist invasion is a mischievous one. It does not hesitate to take any road, or to pursue all despicable and repulsive means to fulfill its desires. It relies to a great extent, for its meddling and spying activities, on the clandestine organizations which it has established, such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions, and other spying associations. All those secret organizations, some which are overt, act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions, strive to demolish societies, to destroy values, to wreck answerableness, to totter virtues and to wipe out Islam. It stands behind the diffusion of drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion. The Arab states surrounding Israel are required to open their borders to the Jihad fighters, the sons of the Arab and Islamic peoples, to enable them to play their role and to join their efforts to those of their brothers among the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The other Arab and Islamic states are required, at the very least, to facilitate the movement of the Jihad fighters from and to them. We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967 and stood at the doorstep of the Blessed Aqsa Mosque, they shouted with joy: Muhammad is dead, he left daughters behind. Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.

I will continue in the next post with the reference to the PA constitution to fully illustrate how Marcus lies, when he says I or anyone else has made up that the PA and Hamas believe in taking back all of Israel as well as Jordan, Read the damn constitution for yourself to see what Marcus deliberately pretends I made up.

 

 

[Rue]

Before I move on to the equally as dispicable PA constitution let's make clear Hamas is in a state of declared war and terror against not just Jewish Israelis, but anyone who thinks Jews have a right to be Israeli citizens of a Jewish Israeli state.

Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar  clearly has stated that any talk of the Israel  1967 lines being recognized  was and quote.  "just a phase" until Hamas has a chance to "regain the land...even if we [Hamas] have to do so inch by inch."

The source for the above: 

Hamas Leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar Slams PA President Abbas for "Aimless Kangaroo-Like" Political Gymnastics and Says: We Will Not Relinquish Any Piece of Palestinian Land". Memri TV. Retrieved 22 July 2014.

As I produced in its constitution above,  Hamas  leaders Ismail Haniyah and Khaled Meshaal, have also stated repeatedly that "Palestine – from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, from its north to its south – is our land, our right, and our homeland. There will be no relinquishing or forsaking even an inch or small part of it,"^[

source:

Hamas Leader Khaled Mash'al: We Will Not Relinquish an Inch of Palestine, from the River to the Sea". Memri TV. Retrieved 22 July 2014.

and:

 "we shall not relinquish the Islamic waqf on the land of Palestine, and Jerusalem shall not be divided into Western and Eastern Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a single united [city], and Palestine stretches from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and from Naqoura [Rosh Ha-Niqra] to Umm Al-Rashrash [Eilat] in the south."

sources:

"Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, in Visit to Tunisia: We Shall Not Relinquish Palestine, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River". Memri TV. Retrieved 22 July 2014. 

 "Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya Reaffirms Hamas' Commitment to Armed Resistance and Says: We Will Liberate Palestine in Its Entirety, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River". Memri TV. Retrieved 22 July 2014.

So for Marcus to come on this forum and lid suggest Hamas does not reject Israel in its entirety or anyone who suggests it does made it up is bull shit.

 

[Rue]

You can find the PA Charter at: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp

Marcus et al depend on  you do not read it and understand what it says.

Here are its references to its continuing state of beligerence with Israel:

Article 9:

Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 10:

Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

Article 15:

The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Here are the specific references to rejecting Israel pre 1967 by the PA in its constitution:

Article 19:

The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations; particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20:

The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

 

 

[Rue]

 

 

In 2006, Mahmoud Abbas appointed as senior religious leader of the PA, Sheikh Muhammad Hussein.

on March 23m 2015, Hussein stated at a conference of Muslim scholars and delegations from over 46 countries the following:
 

"The land of Palestine is waqf (i.e., inalienable religious endowment in Islamic law). It must not be relinquished nor must any part of it be sold... It is the duty of the leaders of the [Islamic] nation and its peoples to liberate Palestine and Jerusalem."

source: Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, March 23, 2015

According to the above  all Muslims are prohibited from recognizing Israel's existence or signing a genuine and permanent peace treaty with Israel that "relinquishes any part" of "Palestine," meaning all of Israel.

He also stated at this world Muslim  conference that ALL Muslims not just Palestinians have a religious obligation to "liberate Palestine", i.e., Israel.

Then we have Mr. Abbas's other advisor on religious and Islamic affairs, Mahmoud Al Habbash who stated:

 

"The entire land of Palestine (i.e., includes all of Israel) is waqf (i.e., an inalienable religious endowment in Islamic law) and is blessed land... It is prohibited to sell, bestow ownership or facilitate the occupation of even a millimeter of it."

 

source: Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Oct. 22, 2014]

As I showed earlier the Hamas' constitution article 11 states:
 

"The Islamic Resistance Movement [Hamas] believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

 

The question is why does Marcus pretend the PA or Hamas recognizes Israel pre-1967 and misrepresents the conflict as simply being Israel engaging in illegal settlements?

Why does he refuse to acknowledge there is NO Palestinian or Arab League of Nations that believe Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state.

Why will he not admit this?

Why does he pretend Israel should recognize terrorists who want it turned into a Muslim state? What would he like them to recognize-the turning of Israel into a sharia law nation which Hamas and the PA call for?

Why do the spambots on this thread hide from me and refuse to directly acknowledge their actual political agendas and who they are members of?

Oh but hey they now have Jacee claiming by my challenging their bull shit piss on Israel propaganda I am flogging a dead horse.

Got it.

Israel is no dead horse. deny its existence all you want.Whine, complain, engage in codified references to its destruction, you know where to find me.

 

 

 

[Hudson Jones]

Speaking of spam bot, we see here, again, Rue posting the Israeli government's take on this. The same government who has done what it could in order to delay any progress in following international law. Anything that comes out of the Israeli government has 0 credibility.

This cannot be denied: All governments agree that Israel is in violation of international law with its occupation and the illegal settlements.

Who cares about Hamas' charter? Hamas was not even around when the PLO signed and officially accepted the State of Israel within the green line.

There is ALWAYS an excuse for Israel not to follow international law.

Today I had a meeting with the manager at Superstore, with a petition, requesting for them to remove produce sent from illegal settlements on Palestinian land, marked as if its from Israel. They have temporary put a halt on putting the produce out until they investigate this issue.

BDS is working and it's scaring the international law violators.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Hudson Jones

[Rue]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:03 PM, Hudson Jones said:

Speaking of spam bot, we see here, again, Rue posting the Israeli government's take on this. 

You started the thread to criticize the state of Israel for existing. Whose position would I present other than Israel's to counter your  script.? Should I quote Tonga's position. I love Tonga.

[Rue]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:03 PM, Hudson Jones said:

.Anything that comes out of the Israeli government has 0 credibility.

 

Interesting. When you make sweeping generalizations like the above you show you don't debate you are here to propagate the script you have been assigned. You think sweeping comments like the above make you credible?

[Rue]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:03 PM, Hudson Jones said:

This cannot be denied: All governments agree that Israel is in violation of international law with its occupation and the illegal settlements.

This can also not be denied;

1-When presented the actual legal wording relevant to the dispute you did not respond because you have no clue how to respond.

2-Your position is that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state. You said Zionism is a cancer that must be wiped out. That is your agenda. Discussing the legality of settlements given that position  makes your focusing on the settlement issue clear-you use the settlement issue as a prop, a pretense, a vehicle to justify denying the entire state of Israel existing as a Jewish state.

3-Settlements of course are an obstacle to peace and would have to be part of an overall comprehensive peace agreement but for someone like you and Marcus, whose agenda is to deny the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, what can not be denied is you use Palestinians and their predicament, you exploit it to advance your script which is not about Palestinians but eradicating Israel as a Jewish state.  If you in fact cared about Palestinians you would understand how discussing settlements and achieving peace can not and will never come about as long as it embraces leaders whose position is to take back all of Israel and turn it and Jordan into one large Sharia state.

[Rue]

Hudson Jones stated:

"Who cares about Hamas' charter? Hamas was not even around when the PLO signed and officially accepted the State of Israel within the green line."

Hudson Jones shows in the above how lacking in credibility he is. In one breath  he loudly protests that settlements on the West Bank are an obstacle to peace, then in the next says he does not care how a terrorist group literally feet away from Israeli soil and engaged as we speak in a terrorist war to destroy Israel as a Jewish state and turn it into a Sharia law state is not an obstacle to peace.

In one sentence he shows vividly he is a supporter of Hamas and is not interested in any opinion other than the destruction of Israel.

Good work Hudson Jones that was credible.

 

 

 

[Rue]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:03 PM, Hudson Jones said:

There is ALWAYS an excuse for Israel not to follow international law.

 

No there is not just like there is no excuse for you to come on this forum pretending to be someone you are not and pushing an agenda to eradicate the state of Israel's existence and exploiting the Palestinian conflict to do so. 

There is no excuse for your support of Hamas, the PA, terrorism and being in favour of Muslim states but not a Jewish one.

 

[Rue]

Hudson Jones you stated:

"Today I had a meeting with the manager at Superstore, with a petition, requesting for them to remove produce sent from illegal settlements on Palestinian land, marked as if its from Israel. They have temporary put a halt on putting the produce out until they investigate this issue."

That's interesting. Now tell everyone your real name and what you do for a living and why you petition people on behalf of BDS. Go on tell everyone you are an activist Canadian with nothing better to do than the above.

Next you stated:

"BDS is working and it's scaring the international law violators."

In your mind no doubt.  Those "international law violators" is your latest encoded and couched reference to Jewish Israelis.

You don't have the balls to say so and let me tell you, you frighten no one. You are a legend in your own mind or whatever other pen name you want to use. I just call you Moe.