Zeitgeist Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: But Canada is clearly not the largest "defender" of such values in very material ways. However, the present Canadian government is very good at insisting for continued U.S. leadership in these areas. Trump is challenging the globalist status quo, and Canada doesn't like it. No doubt Trump is setting the order aflame, but what does Trump's America stand for? What is the message? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: No doubt Trump is setting the order aflame, but what does Trump's America stand for? What is the message? Whatever Trump and America want it to be....I will never understand the foreign expectations....heaping hate and disdain on the very same nation they expect continued leadership and protection from. Where does that come from ? I don't wake up each day expecting Canada to cover my ass. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Whatever Trump and America want it to be....I will never understand the foreign expectations....heaping hate and disdain on the very same nation they expect continued leadership and protection from. Where does that come from ? I don't wake up each day expecting Canada to cover my ass. No no, don't deflect. This isn't about Canada or any other country than America. Can you tell me what the current U.S. federal government stands for? That's the gaping hole in your national policy/doctrine. Canada strives to be a "just society". What's does the U.S. represent right now to its own citizens? Is it America First? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 Just now, Zeitgeist said: No no, don't deflect. This isn't about Canada or any other country than America. Can you tell me what the current U.S. federal government stands for? That's the gaping hole in your national policy/doctrine. Canada strives to be a "just society". What's does the U.S. represent right now to its own citizens? Is it America First? Yes...and it was America First for the Obama administration too. NAFTA includes Canada and Mexico, so you can't escape from the same criticism. "Just society".....sure....just ask the "aboriginals". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 It's just America First. No aspirations beyond that. That's why I can't understand Trump. There's not much there besides anger and extortionist deal-making. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: It's just America First. No aspirations beyond that. That's why I can't understand Trump. There's not much there besides anger and extortionist deal-making. That's right...not very complicated...just like Teddy Roosevelt ("speak softly...carry big stick")....mostly carry big stick. Do you think America owes you and the world more than that...and if so.....WHY ??? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 13 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: That's right...not very complicated...just like Teddy Roosevelt ("speak softly...carry big stick")....mostly carry big stick. Do you think America owes you and the world more than that...and if so.....WHY ??? I think you owe more than that to yourselves. You're better than that. Think of Lincoln and FDR... Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 46 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I think you owe more than that to yourselves. You're better than that. Think of Lincoln and FDR... Lincoln > Civil War FDR > Fascism and internment camps for U.S. citizens. Americans get to decide what they are owed...not foreign expectations. They were not owed Hillary Clinton. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
taxme Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 20 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: They have been clear that dispute resolution and supply management are the stumbling blocks. All parties agree on Canada's position in these issues. Whether the negociations are resolved or not, trade will flow. It will be business as usual with a slight few alterations. Just millions of taxpayer's tax dollars pretty much blown all pretty much for nothing. It never ends with politicians. Spend-spend-spend. If Canadians gave a 10% interest into how their tax dollars are being blown every day it would be a miracle. Like that old saying goes? "Tax me, I am Canadian". Quote
Zeitgeist Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Lincoln > Civil War FDR > Fascism and internment camps for U.S. citizens. Americans get to decide what they are owed...not foreign expectations. They were not owed Hillary Clinton. FDR was a great president. Your characterization of him as a fascist is unfair and misleading. Internment camps were probably unnecessary. It was a war measure and not in the same category as a German concentration camp or even a Japanese POW camp, not even close. Yes Americans decide on their president. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: FDR was a great president. Your characterization of him as a fascist is unfair and misleading. Internment camps were probably unnecessary. It was a war measure and not in the same category as a German concentration camp or even a Japanese POW camp, not even close. Yes Americans decide on their president. So Trump's policies would make him a great president if there was a depression and world war ? I guess NAFTA will just have to do..... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: So Trump's policies would make him a great president if there was a depression and world war ? I guess NAFTA will just have to do..... What great policies are you referring to? Tax cuts that mostly benefit the rich and bankrupt the Treasury? Trade extortion against allies? Xenophobic immigration policy? Separating the children of illegal immigrants from their parents in prisons? Lying on a range of issues? Discrediting mainstream news? Attempting to subvert the independence of government agencies? Bowing to aggressive foreign quasi-fascist powers? Possible collusion with Russia to influence U.S. elections? Hurling insults over Twitter? Removal of environmental protections and refusal to sign the Paris Agreement? I'm pleased that Trump attacked the forces in Syria that launched that chemical attack. I like the expansion of the basic personal tax exemption. China needs to allow the value of its currency to rise. Mexico needs to raise its minimum wage in the auto sector. Some of the current trade policy may influence that. Otherwise there isn't much to like. Edited September 15, 2018 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: What great policies are you referring to? Tax cuts to spur economic growth (same as several previous presidents)....repatriation of US capital. Leaving Paris Climate Agreement as soon as possible...just another climate change scam. Travel ban for terrorist harbouring nations (upheld by courts) Repeal of ObamaCare (ACA) tax penalty Abandonment of TPP for unilateral trade agreements; NAFTA 2.0; tariffs Aggressive arrest, detention, and deportation of illegals Pressure on NATO member deadbeats (like Canada) Conservative SC justice appointments U.S. embassy move to Jerusalem (acknowledging reality) New oil pipeline approvals (KXL, ANWR) Normalization of relations with DPRK ...and he has only been POTUS for a little over 18 months. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Tax cuts to spur economic growth (same as several previous presidents)....repatriation of US capital. Leaving Paris Climate Agreement as soon as possible...just another climate change scam. Travel ban for terrorist harbouring nations (upheld by courts) Repeal of ObamaCare (ACA) tax penalty Abandonment of TPP for unilateral trade agreements; NAFTA 2.0; tariffs Aggressive arrest, detention, and deportation of illegals Pressure on NATO member deadbeats (like Canada) Conservative SC justice appointments U.S. embassy move to Jerusalem (acknowledging reality) New oil pipeline approvals (KXL, ANWR) Normalization of relations with DPRK ...and he has only been POTUS for a little over 18 months. Most of your points illustrate why Trump is so dangerous. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 Just now, Zeitgeist said: Most of your points illustrate why Trump is so dangerous. Agreed...he is very dangerous...to people who have a different agenda. That's why he was elected. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Agreed...he is very dangerous...to people who have a different agenda. That's why he was elected. The consensus seems to be that even Trump's inner circle is worried about him. In fairness to Trump, he is blamed for a lot of controversial policies that many Americans support. I'm not fooled into thinking that he stands alone on these issues, not even close. Your proud support of him is more common than many of us in Canada and the U.S. like to think. That's perhaps the scariest part. Trump isn't acting alone and his government's policies have given foreign countries pause over what America is about. I guess we'll see how Trumpism does in the midterms. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 15, 2018 Report Posted September 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: The consensus seems to be that even Trump's inner circle is worried about him. In fairness to Trump, he is blamed for a lot of controversial policies that many Americans support. I'm not fooled into thinking that he stands alone on these issues, not even close. Your proud support of him is more common than many of us in Canada and the U.S. like to think. That's perhaps the scariest part. Trump isn't acting alone and his government's policies have given foreign countries pause over what America is about. I guess we'll see how Trumpism does in the midterms. Trump's most important attribute is the absence of a Clinton 2.0 presidency...everything else is gravy. NAFTA 2.0 was a campaign promise. Foreign countries are not naive about American policies, regardless of who is president. They have their own national interests and agendas as well. Trump will lose party seats in the House and Senate, but perhaps not as many as Obama lost for the Democrats. Many (not all) Canadians were very naive about the CanAm relationship, even before Trump. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
betsy Posted September 16, 2018 Report Posted September 16, 2018 On 9/13/2018 at 1:04 PM, Wilber said: If so, he is just using Trump's own MO. He only thinks he is. But he's not! Trump's been playing him. Quote
betsy Posted September 16, 2018 Report Posted September 16, 2018 (edited) On 9/13/2018 at 5:12 PM, Wilber said: I'm not a fan of Trudeau, never have been but he and Freeland are our team in this whether we like it or not. Are you sure you are a Canadian because you seem to delight in the prospect of your country failing. Or are you so hyper partisan that the possible consequences for your country just don't matter to you. Trudeau's got his own team - and it's not Canada! He's been grinding Canada to the ground! Edited September 16, 2018 by betsy 1 Quote
taxme Posted September 17, 2018 Report Posted September 17, 2018 Both Freeland and Lighthizer have made it clear that they are not negotiating in public. Loons can make up whatever crap they want but they have actual business to conduct. You sound like a defeatist. Some loons do have something to really say and offer at times. It's mostly the lefty liberal loony ones who think that all politicians love and are really concerned about their well being. Politicians have a word for loony's like them? SUCKERS. So, in other words, you feel that Trudeau and Freeland do not believe that we the Canadian people should know as to what our dear leaders are doing on our time and dime then in the negotiations then, right? We should all just be kept in the dark and out of talks and deals and treaties that are later signed in my name by our political leaders and that we all must accept whatever they have signed for or away without a whimper. This is what I mean when I say that there are no true and real Canadian patriots in Canada anymore. Just a bunch of politically correct wimps and coward goat herders. Quote
Wilber Posted September 17, 2018 Report Posted September 17, 2018 You sound like a defeatist. Some loons do have something to really say and offer at times. It's mostly the lefty liberal loony ones who think that all politicians love and are really concerned about their well being. Politicians have a word for loony's like them? SUCKERS. So, in other words, you feel that Trudeau and Freeland do not believe that we the Canadian people should know as to what our dear leaders are doing on our time and dime then in the negotiations then, right? We should all just be kept in the dark and out of talks and deals and treaties that are later signed in my name by our political leaders and that we all must accept whatever they have signed for or away without a whimper. This is what I mean when I say that there are no true and real Canadian patriots in Canada anymore. Just a bunch of politically correct wimps and coward goat herders. You sound like the defeatist. All you people condemning Trudeau for not making a speedy deal think we should have folded like a cheap suit in front of Agent Orange's bluster. Drag it out as long as necessary to get a deal for Canada and if we can't, walk away. This is supposed to be a negotiation, not a capitulation. If supply management can be part of NAFTA, so can softwood lumber, etc. There is no reason for us to be the only one to give. The clown down south can rant all he wants but he can't change the fact that Canada is by far an away the biggest destination for US exports. He can't change that but we can. Any agreement made must be approved by Parliament and Congress. It will be subject to plenty of debate before it is passed, or not. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 17, 2018 Report Posted September 17, 2018 (edited) but he can't change the fact that Canada is by far an away the biggest destination for US exports. He can't change that but we can. Not true....U.S. exports are far more diversified than Canada's, with only 19% going to Canada and 16% going to Mexico. OTOH, Canada and Mexico are 75%+ dependent on export trade to the United States, and far more dependent on U.S. foreign direct investment. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/exports-by-country If Canada and Mexico want continued access to the much larger American market and source of investment capital, then they will have to make some concessions on tariffs, non-tariff barriers, IP theft, dumping, and dispute resolution. If not...then just walk away. The world will survive. Edited September 17, 2018 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted September 17, 2018 Report Posted September 17, 2018 Not true....U.S. exports are far more diversified than Canada's, with only 19% going to Canada and 16% going to Mexico. OTOH, Canada and Mexico are 75%+ dependent on export trade to the United States, and far more dependent on U.S. foreign direct investment. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/exports-by-country If Canada and Mexico want continued access to the much larger American market and source of investment capital, then they will have to make some concessions on tariffs, non-tariff barriers, IP theft, dumping, and dispute resolution. If not...then just walk away. The world will survive. I think we should walk away. Hard to see an upside to the extortionist tactics. As said and confirmed by data many times: Just as many jobs and companies are impacted on both sides of the Canada-US border by any reduction in trade. The U.S. has a slight trade SURPLUS with Canada. We don't have to make any unfair concessions, nor should we. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 17, 2018 Report Posted September 17, 2018 I think we should walk away. Hard to see an upside to the extortionist tactics. As said and confirmed by data many times: Just as many jobs and companies are impacted on both sides of the Canada-US border by any reduction in trade. The U.S. has a slight trade SURPLUS with Canada. We don't have to make any unfair concessions, nor should we. The difference is that just as many means 10X the impact on Canada than on the United States. ...so walk away....what is stopping Trudeau from doing so ? Economic reality. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Army Guy Posted September 17, 2018 Report Posted September 17, 2018 You sound like the defeatist. All you people condemning Trudeau for not making a speedy deal think we should have folded like a cheap suit in front of Agent Orange's bluster. Drag it out as long as necessary to get a deal for Canada and if we can't, walk away. This is supposed to be a negotiation, not a capitulation. If supply management can be part of NAFTA, so can softwood lumber, etc. There is no reason for us to be the only one to give. The clown down south can rant all he wants but he can't change the fact that Canada is by far an away the biggest destination for US exports. He can't change that but we can. Any agreement made must be approved by Parliament and Congress. It will be subject to plenty of debate before it is passed, or not. I agree 100 % that the whole process is a two way street, my question is have the liberals even asked to put in things we think are unfair, such as soft wood lumber. or are we stuck with all this feminist stuff that is not even trade related. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.