The pointless waste and vanity of our refugee system

[Zul-Fiqar786]

9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

No, I'm pretty sure my view is equal to yours in weight.  That's what multiculturalism and diversity is all about, after all.

Wrong, dude. Your view isn’t equal to mine in the specific area of what Canada is all about. You came here from Britain because you were tired of living on a tiny island and enjoy the beauty and nature of Canada. You don’t know the Canadian narrative or story. It would be like me moving to Hawaii without knowing its unique history and story and start claiming to know as much about Hawaii as someone who has lived there for a while. It has nothing to do with multiculturalism, especially since you don’t embrace multiculturalism in the first place.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Zul-Fiqar786

[Moonlight Graham]

37 minutes ago, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

Meanwhile, I think that there are too many White British people who have moved to Canada quite recently, and this is a growing trend. They need to be sent back to Europe.

You're a racist.  You or your family wouldn't even be in Canada if it weren't for these so-called evil "white British people".  Most of us "white people" welcome you with open arms and accommodate many of your differences because we want you to become part of our wonderful family & enjoy it's many benefits of which are the greatest in the history of human civilization, and all we ask is a minimum of respect from you for our country, our laws, & our deepest traditions.  That's not a lot.  So instead of resenting us, come join the family, otherwise you're no different than those terrible racist white people who resent you.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

Wrong, dude. Your view isn’t equal to mine in the specific area of what Canada is all about. You came here from Britain because you were tired of living on a tiny island and enjoy the beauty and nature of Canada. You don’t know the Canadian narrative or story. It would be like me moving to Hawaii without knowing its unique history and story and start claiming to know as much about Hawaii as someone who has lived there for a while. It has nothing to do with multiculturalism, especially since you don’t embrace multiculturalism in the first place.

Actually, I'm pretty sure its better than yours.

[Zul-Fiqar786]

7 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You're a racist.  You or your family wouldn't even be in Canada if it weren't for these so-called evil "white British people".  Most of us "white people" welcome you with open arms and accommodate many of your differences because we want you to become part of our wonderful family & enjoy it's many benefits of which are the greatest in the history of human civilization, and all we ask is a minimum of respect from you for our country, our laws, & our deepest traditions.  That's not a lot.  So instead of resenting us, come join the family, otherwise you're no different than those terrible racist white people who resent you.

Dude, Canada doesn’t belong to any single race or ethnic group. I am the exact opposite of a racist, and I resent such an unholy accusation. If hypothetically it did, that prize could only conceivably go to First Nations people. Neither English people created this State nor French, because when I say the Canadian State, I recognize it as beginning in the Pierre Trudeau era, not in 1867.

I have nothing against British people, despite their history of exploitation and colonization of my land of origin (India). I’m talking about the specific trend of British people from Britain coming to Canada and in their minds it is their ‘holiday home’, bit like having a cottage, a home away from home. This attitude suggests these British people still consider Canada a province of theirs and they have an air of entitlement. They need to recognize that Canadians want to dump the monarchy and that we are a nation in our own right. Otherwise I continue to say that they should pack their bags and go back to their island.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Zul-Fiqar786

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

Dude, Canada doesn’t belong to any single race or ethnic group. I am the exact opposite of a racist, and I resent such an unholy accusation. If hypothetically it did, that prize could only conceivably go to First Nations people. Neither English people created this State nor French, because when I say the Canadian State, I recognize it as beginning in the Pierre Trudeau era, not in 1867.

I have nothing against British people, despite their history of exploitation and colonization of my land of origin (India). I’m talking about the specific trend of British people from Britain coming to Canada and in their minds it is their ‘holiday home’, bit like having a cottage, a home away from home. This attitude suggests these British people still consider Canada a province of theirs and they have an air of entitlement. They need to recognize that Canadians want to dump the monarchy and that we are a nation in our own right. Otherwise I continue to say that they should pack their bags and go back to their island.

I bet some of your best friends are British, eh?

[Moonlight Graham]

3 minutes ago, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

Dude, Canada doesn’t belong to any single race or ethnic group. I am the exact opposite of a racist, and I resent such an unholy accusation. If hypothetically it did, that prize could only conceivably go to First Nations people. Neither English people created this State nor French, because when I say the Canadian State, I recognize it as beginning in the Pierre Trudeau era, not in 1867.

The British and the French, with the help of the indigenous groups and other early immigrant groups like the Irish and Scottish, created, built, and defended this country.  Now Canada has others like you & your family on the team that are continuing to build this country, and that's great.

You realize Pierre Trudeau is french right?  Despite your best wishes, Canada didn't begin when Trudeau was elected.

Quote

I have nothing against British people, despite their history of exploitation and colonization of my land of origin (India). I’m talking about the specific trend of British people from Britain coming to Canada and in their minds it is their ‘holiday home’, bit like having a cottage, a home away from home. This attitude suggests these British people still consider Canada a province of theirs and they have an air of entitlement. They need to recognize that Canadians want to dump the monarchy and that we are a nation in our own right. Otherwise I continue to say that they should pack their bags and go back to their island.

Well you should be more careful with your words I'd caution.  I can assure you I dislike the attitude of these types of Brits as much as you do, have for a long time, and you're right these types of people don't understand that Canada has zero legal affiliation with Britain any more & is a fully sovereign state.  But not all British immigrants have this ignorant attitude, so telling them to go back home is like a white person telling all Muslim immigrants to go back home.

[bush_cheney2004]

Wow...welcome to the forum.

Being called a "racist" immediately is just part of forum initiation !

 

[Zul-Fiqar786]

31 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Despite your best wishes, Canada didn't begin when Trudeau was elected.

I beg to differ. Trudeau repatriated the Constitution with the Constitution Act of 1982. Therefore, I consider the modern Canada we live in today, the multicultural and liberal Canada that is meant to be non-racist and redress grievances of Indigenous people, as beginning in 1982. Pre-1982 Canada is not our Canada and we must disassociate ourselves from it.

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I wouldn't even grant permanent residence status to anyone who couldn't speak English or french, not even a refugee

I bet you'd still be happy to take their money.

[Argus]

I can't believe how many people are responding across multiple threads to an obvious troll. Would the moderator please delete this guy and all his big blue posts?

[CITIZEN_2015]

19 hours ago, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

Dude, don’t take it personally, but the fact is that as someone who was born in raised in Canada I know my view has greater weight than yours in defining what this country is all about. Canada is an ideological state, and multiculturalism and racial diversity is at our core, along with respect for the Indigenous people and embracing their narrative. Canada isn’t just some colony for some rich Europeans to come here and start acting like they own the place, especially if they aren’t willing to embrace our multiculturalism values. I think its appalling how easy it is for British people to move to Canada like moving from one city to another in their own country. Canada isn’t a province of Britain remember that, but at the same time, people from non-European countries struggle so hard just to make it here because of a very biased but tough immigration system.

The first paragraph saying that because you were born in Canada then your view has greater weight by itself is bigotry against millions who are citizens and by law have equal rights as tax payers and citizens.

It is also not true that it is easier for British people to move to Canada like moving from one city to another. I know this because my family are British citizens and like everyone else they have to apply for immigration and wait in line to move to Canada if they qualify based on existing point system.

Edited September 12, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[Moonlight Graham]

18 hours ago, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

I beg to differ. Trudeau repatriated the Constitution with the Constitution Act of 1982. Therefore, I consider the modern Canada we live in today, the multicultural and liberal Canada that is meant to be non-racist and redress grievances of Indigenous people, as beginning in 1982. Pre-1982 Canada is not our Canada and we must disassociate ourselves from it.

"Our Canada"?  Who is "our"?  I'm sorry, but Canada is still very much racist.  Every racial/ethnic group has significant numbers within it that are racist toward other racial/ethnic groups.  It's called tribalism.  Pierre's son Justin Trudeau is doing nothing beyond lip service to redress grievances of indigenous peoples, which is shameful based on his election rhetoric. And what did Pierre do?

Pre-1982 Canada built most of the things that make this country and yours and my life as great as it is, and the Constitution Act, 1982 including the Charter added to this (though both pre-1982 and post-1982 Canada aren't without faults as well).  Do you want to disassociate yourself from the Statute of Westminster?  How about Confederation, which if it didn't happen we'd likely all be US citizens right now?

[Moonlight Graham]

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

I bet you'd still be happy to take their money.

Why would I take their money?  Even if I did, refugees often don't have very much money anyways.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Moonlight Graham

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

.... How about Confederation, which if it didn't happen we'd likely all be US citizens right now?

 

Oh no.....anything but...THAT !!

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Oh no.....anything but...THAT !!

 

Canada exist as a country due to the Union victory in the US Civil War.

Had the Rebs won............

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Why would I take their money? 

Because you can.  Even if you don't there are many who will and do and have to such an extent that refugees are all to often and increasingly the result.

Quote

Even if I did, refugees often don't have very much money anyways.

Which is why they're flocking to places that have lots - they're following the money so to speak.

[betsy]

On 9/9/2017 at 9:55 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Refugees shouldn't automatically get Permanent Residence status.  That's absolutely ridiculous.

 

Refugees must be accepted only with the clear understanding that their status is temporary.  We're giving refuge while there's extreme upheaval in their lands.

We have to remember that refugees come to us under duress!  A lot of them wouldn't dream of shedding off their cultures, and a lot of them actually view the western lifestyle with disapproval.

Edited September 13, 2017 by betsy

[PIK]

On 9/9/2017 at 11:21 AM, dialamah said:

I think the idea has merit, for sure.  Money could be better spent helping people in place.   But there are already people who think we spend way too much on foreign aid, and so while I might support reduction of the refugee program, I would want to see a corresponding increase in foreign aid without fighting fiscal conservatives every step of the way.   

I would like to point out that this article contradicts the claim that refugees from Syria are essentially illiterate goat farmers who have no economic value to Canada.  

 

How much foreign aid ends up is a swiss bank account. We should supply the ''aid '' not just money. And my understanding the syrian thingy is a bust and we are now stuck paying for most for the rest of thier lives.

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

Refugees must be accepted only with the clear understanding that their status is temporary.  We're giving refuge while there's extreme upheaval in their lands.

Who determines when the period of upheaval has passed? What if it doesn't? 

[betsy]

20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Who determines when the period of upheaval has passed? What if it doesn't? 

If people in that country are re-starting their lives and rebuilding has begun (just like in Haiti)......... it's time to go home, folks.

[betsy]

 

Quote

 

On 9/11/2017 at 10:27 PM, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

Meanwhile, I think that there are too many White British people who have moved to Canada quite recently, and this is a growing trend. They need to be sent back to Europe.

 

 

British people are but the example of immigrants that should be welcome in this country.  Their values are compatible with Canada's.  They're also allies.

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, betsy said:

 

British people are but the example of immigrants that should be welcome in this country.  Their values are compatible with Canada's.  They're also allies.

 

But they walk funny...

[Moonlight Graham]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

Because you can.  Even if you don't there are many who will and do and have to such an extent that refugees are all to often and increasingly the result.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say.  Can you clarify? How do people take their money?

[eyeball]

 

5 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't even understand what you're trying to say.  Can you clarify? How do people take their money?

Through resource extraction and worker exploitation for the most part, especially in countries where few if any environmental or labour standards apply.

Their countries have been plundered of their natural capital by the forces of globalization that we were largely responsible for initiating. Add to this the effects of climate change, and environmental degradation, again largely a by product of economic forces and policies we are mostly responsible for initiating and of course all the conflict we're helping to fuel in many of the places people are flocking from. As I've pointed out in related threads the lines between economic, environmental and conflict refugees are becoming blurred enough that most refugees are fleeing a combination of all three at the same time.

And btw we haven't seen anything yet.

As always, I find it unconscionable that we expect a borderless world for money but not the human beings that are displaced and dispossessed by the way that money flows across through and often out of the countries that refugees are coming from.

 

 

[Moonlight Graham]

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

Through resource extraction and worker exploitation for the most part, especially in countries where few if any environmental or labour standards apply.

Their countries have been plundered of their natural capital by the forces of globalization that we were largely responsible for initiating. Add to this the effects of climate change, and environmental degradation, again largely a by product of economic forces and policies we are mostly responsible for initiating and of course all the conflict we're helping to fuel in many of the places people are flocking from. As I've pointed out in related threads the lines between economic, environmental and conflict refugees are becoming blurred enough that most refugees are fleeing a combination of all three at the same time.

And btw we haven't seen anything yet.

As always, I find it unconscionable that we expect a borderless world for money but not the human beings that are displaced and dispossessed by the way that money flows across through and often out of the countries that refugees are coming from.

I get your point and I agree that exploiting developing countries is inhumane & disgusting.  In situations of life or death we need to help people in need, but what I'm saying is that letting unlimited # of them into the country like you suggest, and making them permanent residents like we do now isn't any kind of logical solution.  I'm fine with bringing in refugees, but it has to be sensible.  One of the reasons these countries are in states of war or fleeing genocide or in danger of being killed for being gay etc  is that among these people there's a lot of very bad seeds, and they need to be kept out.  We have borders secured by people with guns for a reason.

And yes sometimes our actions have a lot to do with what's happening in refugee countries, so I'd much rather spend the funds to fix the root causes of these problems especially when it's our fault, like ethical trade policies as you eluded and keeping a tight leash on how our corporations treat humans in other poorer countries.