The pointless waste and vanity of our refugee system

[Argus]

Jonathan Kay points out how wasteful our refugee policies are in spending vast fortunes (numbers never made public but billions) to bring over refugees and put them up in hotels and public housing here instead of helping improve the lot of far, far more refugees stuck in camps near their homelands. Citing a book by a pair of Oxford university professors he reminds us that our refugee system was originally intended to help political dissidents but has grown into this vast alternative immigration system and a sort of lottery for the dispossessed of the third world.  For every person we help this way we could be helping twenty in the camps - but that wouldn't produce such lovely photo ops by virtue signalling politicians and liberals.

It helps only a few, but they tend to be the few with the most resources, leaving their original country barren of the educated and the most able who might rebuild it.

The refugees who make it to Canada typically will have much better lives than those who don’t. But this comes at the expense of humanitarian funds that might be spent to better effect — and with greater efficiency — on the far larger number of refugees who still languish overseas. According to the authors’ numbers, “for every US $135 of public money spent on an asylum-seeker in Europe, just US $1 is spent on a refugee in the developing world, (and) fewer than one in 10 of the 4-million Syrian refugees in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan receive any material support from the UN.”

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/jonathan-kay-why-canadas-refugee-policy-may-actually-be-doing-more-harm-than-good#comments-area

[dialamah]

I think the idea has merit, for sure.  Money could be better spent helping people in place.   But there are already people who think we spend way too much on foreign aid, and so while I might support reduction of the refugee program, I would want to see a corresponding increase in foreign aid without fighting fiscal conservatives every step of the way.   

I would like to point out that this article contradicts the claim that refugees from Syria are essentially illiterate goat farmers who have no economic value to Canada.  

Quote

Moreover, the refugees who make it to the West do not comprise a representative cross-section of displaced Syrians — because those who can afford to pay off human smugglers tend to be the richest and most well-educated members of their society. 

 

[Argus]

33 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I think the idea has merit, for sure.  Money could be better spent helping people in place.   But there are already people who think we spend way too much on foreign aid, and so while I might support reduction of the refugee program, I would want to see a corresponding increase in foreign aid without fighting fiscal conservatives every step of the way.   

Difficult given that the government has blandly assured us for a generation that bringing refugees to Canada costs us virtually nothing, but I would certainly support it and have said so in the past.

33 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I would like to point out that this article contradicts the claim that refugees from Syria are essentially illiterate goat farmers who have no economic value to Canada.  

Except in our case we specifically went to a UN refugee camp on the border with Syria to pick through the remnants. If you will recall the earlier cites from journalists on the scene, they said all the educated people with money and connections went to Europe. These people were described as 'the poorest of the poor' and largely rural.

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Difficult given that the government has blandly assured us for a generation that bringing refugees to Canada costs us virtually nothing, but I would certainly support it and have said so in the past.

Well see, we agree.   Who knew?   

Quote

Except in our case we specifically went to a UN refugee camp on the border with Syria to pick through the remnants. If you will recall the earlier cites from journalists on the scene, they said all the educated people with money and connections went to Europe. These people were described as 'the poorest of the poor' and largely rural.

In which case I was misled by believing Jonathan Kay was talking about Canada and not Europe.    

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well see, we agree.   Who knew?   

In which case I was misled by believing Jonathan Kay was talking about Canada and not Europe.    

He was commenting on a book by a pair of Oxford dons. The information is accurate as far as it goes, but the Syrians we flew over were not a part of the book. 

[Moonlight Graham]

Refugees shouldn't automatically get Permanent Residence status.  That's absolutely ridiculous.  There's areas in most major Canadian cities of ie: Somali refuges which are-poor & crime-riddled.  Refugees should all be given temporary protected status.  If after a certain # of years( 5 or 6? Depending on the home country situation), if it's safe to return home you should be forced to do so. And every few years the home situation should be re-evaluated. If you have done well in Canada over those 6 years, are employed, no criminal record, have learned English or french, then you could apply on a fast track to stay as a permanent resident before you're forced to go home.

As of now, approved refugees automatically receive PR status, and there's no requirement for them to learn English/french, and many do not.

As an aside, the rules are now (thanks to the Liberals new rules) that to become a Canadian Citizen, only people 18 to 54 have to pass a language test for English/French.  What a bunch of BS.  Absolutely 100% of new Canadian citizens should be required to be able to speak, read, and write english or french fluently, I don't care if you're 6 or 90.  How are supposed to vote if you can't even understand the news or what the politicians are saying?  How are you supposed to fit into Canadian society as a Canadian?  NONSENSE.

[-TSS-]

It is big business and some people make good money out of it. Useful idiots who are in it for sincere will to help are a useful tool.

[eyeball]

18 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

How are supposed to vote if you can't even understand the news or what the politicians are saying? 

Translators.

Quote

How are you supposed to fit into Canadian society as a Canadian?  NONSENSE.

It would be a lot easier if Canada could simply recognize the permanent resident status of fellow Earthlings but I guess until we stop moving forwards backwards this nonsensical angst will remain a constant irritant. Such is the burden of accommodating and dragging right wing conservatives into the future - I can put up with the angst and even the odd kick but the screaming is really getting intolerable. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by eyeball

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

It would be a lot easier if Canada could simply recognize the permanent resident status of fellow Earthlings but I guess until we stop moving forwards backwards this nonsensical angst will remain a constant irritant. Such is the burden of accommodating and dragging right wing conservatives into the future - I can put up with the angst and even the odd kick but the screaming is really getting intolerable. 

There are no "fellow Earthlings". Everybody all around the world belongs to some kinda group... and some of them are right wingers.
Just curious, would you approve of more immigrants or refugees coming here from far away lands if they were hardened right wingers?

[dialamah]

20 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

There are no "fellow Earthlings". Everybody all around the world belongs to some kinda group... and some of them are right wingers.
Just curious, would you approve of more immigrants or refugees coming here from far away lands if they were hardened right wingers?

If hardened right-wingers are fundamental conservatives, then that would be Muslims, I think, so I guess for me at least the answer is Yes.

If "Fellow Earthlings" were a concept everyone got on board with, there'd be a lot less conflict in the world.

 

[drummindiver]

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

 

If "Fellow Earthlings" were a concept everyone got on board with, there'd be a lot less conflict in the world.

 

Clearly, that concept hasn't taken hold.

And not just by right wingers.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, drummindiver said:

Clearly, that concept hasn't taken hold.

And not just by right wingers.

The concept took hold as far as money goes, with right wingers blindly leading the charge and oblivious to the problems it would cause. Like the vast diaspora of Earthlings similarly seeking the same greener pastures money seeks.

Granting this right to money but not human beings is unconscionable.

[eyeball]

16 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

There are no "fellow Earthlings".
Just curious, would you approve of more immigrants or refugees coming here from far away lands if they were hardened right wingers?

I would definitely screen immigrants for this ideological 'value' with a view towards reinforcing Canada's progressive nature. We should have an ongoing public education program for this purpose in any case for domestic hard-boilers.

[drummindiver]

18 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The concept took hold as far as money goes, with right wingers blindly leading the charge and oblivious to the problems it would cause. Like the vast diaspora of Earthlings similarly seeking the same greener pastures money seeks.

Granting this right to money but not human beings is unconscionable.

Lol. That's why comrade Trudeau, a trust fund baby was charging upwards of 100k to speak at orphanages and such as an MP while Harper wrote a book about hockey and donated every cent made to the veterans of Canada.

Tells me all I need to know about right...and left.

[Moonlight Graham]

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

Translators.

Or just get off your butt, stick your head outside & out of your protective cultural bubble & learn the language of the place you live in if you want to become a Canadian. I wouldn't even grant permanent residence status to anyone who couldn't speak English or french, not even a refugee (as I said before, they should be given temporary protected status until they prove worthy of living here permanently).  There needs to be significant incentive.  Do you understand that language is the most fundamental aspect of culture?  If you can't do something such as basic as communicating with another person, how are you supposed to function together in a society?  How are people going to collaborate together at ie: the workplace if everyone speaks a different language?  Is everyone going to have to bring a family member to work with them so they can translate for them?  Do you understand the huge cultural schisms that have occurred & still occur between french-canada and english-canada simply because of language, including the country almost splitting apart numerous times?  Would you like to repeat this phenomenon?

Quote

It would be a lot easier if Canada could simply recognize the permanent resident status of fellow Earthlings but I guess until we stop moving forwards backwards this nonsensical angst will remain a constant irritant. Such is the burden of accommodating and dragging right wing conservatives into the future.

It's you who isn't making sense, as I've demonstrated.  Is it "right wing conservative" to want a functioning society where people understand each other and share the most very basic sense of common cohesion?  Do you understand that because of the english/french schism in Canada, the overwhelming majority of Canadians can't even work for their own government in their own country's capital because in order to work for the federal gov in Ottawa you need to be bilingual because people need to be able to communicate with each other in order to function?  That's why they call it "reasonable accommodation", & your idea isn't.

Quote

I can put up with the angst and even the odd kick but the screaming is really getting intolerable. 

You'll tolerate transforming the country into a nation of 1000 different languages where english/french isn't a requirement where everyone will need a "translator", but you won't tolerate someone typing a single word in capital letters?

Edited September 11, 2017 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, drummindiver said:

Lol. That's why comrade Trudeau, a trust fund baby was charging upwards of 100k to speak at orphanages and such as an MP while Harper wrote a book about hockey and donated every cent made to the veterans of Canada.

Tells me all I need to know about right...and left.

There's good people & complete morons/cruel people on both sides of the ideological isle so let's not kid ourselves with this self-righteous nonsense.  Stephen Harper and Justin aren't saints by any stretch nor are they Hitler/Stalin.

[drummindiver]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Or just get off your butt, stick your head outside & out of your protective cultural bubble & learn the language of the place you live in if you want to become a Canadian. I wouldn't even grant permanent residence status to anyone who couldn't speak English or french, not even a refugee (as I said before, they should be given temporary protected status until they prove worthy of living here permanently).  There needs to be significant incentive.  Do you understand that language is the most fundamental aspect of culture?  If you can't do something such as basic as communicating with another person, how are you supposed to function together in a society?  How are people going to collaborate together at ie: the workplace if everyone speaks a different language?  Is everyone going to have to bring a family member to work with them so they can translate for them? 

No need to learn either language to cash those welfare cheques. They won't have jobs so no need to take relatives to something that doesn't exist. As has been shown time and again, the worst fiscal immigrants and refugees are those who refuse to assimilate...even so ethung as basic as learning the language.

 

[drummindiver]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

There's good people & complete morons/cruel people on both sides of the ideological isle so let's not kid ourselves with this self-righteous nonsense.  Stephen Harper and Justin aren't saints by any stretch nor are they Hitler/Stalin.

Kind of my point. For Eyeball to claim only righties  want to scratch more than two nickels together is ludicrous.

Was meant more of a macro than micro observation.  I could  have expressed it better, sorry.

[taxme]

On 9/9/2017 at 8:21 AM, dialamah said:

I think the idea has merit, for sure.  Money could be better spent helping people in place.   But there are already people who think we spend way too much on foreign aid, and so while I might support reduction of the refugee program, I would want to see a corresponding increase in foreign aid without fighting fiscal conservatives every step of the way.   

I would like to point out that this article contradicts the claim that refugees from Syria are essentially illiterate goat farmers who have no economic value to Canada.  

 

There are suppose to be millions upon millions of these so-called refugees out there. Where will it end? It won't end as long as we keep supporting and carrying on with the present day refugee assistance program. I have the solution to end all of this refugee nonsense. Give those in the third world birth control pills as foreign aid. There is no other way but to try and help them to get out from their poverty than by having less children. I don't see any other solution for them. I for one am sick and tired of watching my tax dollars going down the drain every day trying to help the rest of the third world. Their poverty is their own creation, and not mine, and I should not have to continue to help pay for them to just carry on business as usual. forever.

Canadians have done more than their fair share of trying to help the poor of the world. It needs to stop. Now it should be left up to them. If they refuse to stop having babies well then to bloody bad for them. No more foreign aid tax dollars for them. It's called tough love, baby. 

The Syrians should stay and be fighting with Assad who is trying to eliminate ISIS. ISIS is trying to make life unbearable for all people of the Middle East. Running away from the fight won't solve anything. It should not be left up to the people in the west to fight their battles for them anymore. Stop immigrating to countries that have their own problems to take care of, and not allow them to add to those problems. Just saying. 

[taxme]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

I would definitely screen immigrants for this ideological 'value' with a view towards reinforcing Canada's progressive nature. We should have an ongoing public education program for this purpose in any case for domestic hard-boilers.

So, says a domestic liberal "hard boiler" like you who thinks that all Canadians just want to have and help tens of thousands of so-called refugees entering Canada legal or illegal and have us all pay for their stay here. No way, Jose. If you want to pay for it use your own dollars, not mine. Personally, I don't care anymore as to what happens in other third world countries anymore. I have paid enough already in my time in trying to help the poor of the world, and there are still more born every day. It never ends with these people. They need to stop breeding. Plain and simple. 

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

There's good people & complete morons/cruel people on both sides of the ideological isle so let's not kid ourselves with this self-righteous nonsense.

Most sense I've read on here in a while.

[Zul-Fiqar786]

Canada needs to accept more refugees, especially the Rohingya Muslims that at present are being slaughtered by the Burmese military and violent Buddhist mobs. Canada must once again prove to the world that it is a peace-loving and humanitarian nation that is more than willing to lift it’s fair share. Meanwhile, I think that there are too many White British people who have moved to Canada quite recently, and this is a growing trend. They need to be sent back to Europe. Canada is not part of the so-called 'Western-civilization', this nation's history is rooted in the Indigenous First Nations, they too must have a major say in what kind of people they want in this country and what kind they would like to see go back to Europe.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Zul-Fiqar786

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

Canada needs to accept more refugees, especially the Rohingya Muslims that at present are being slaughtered by the Burmese military and violent Buddhist mobs. Canada must once again prove to the world that it is a peace-loving and humanitarian nation that is more than willing to lift it’s fair share. Meanwhile, I think that there are too many White British people who have moved to Canada quite recently, and this is a growing trend. They need to be sent back to Europe. Canada is not part of the so-called 'Western-civilization', this nation's history is rooted in the Indigenous First Nations, they too must have a major say in what kind of people they want in this country and what kind they would like to see go back to Europe.

As a white British person who moved to Canada can I be the first to say: Up yours?

Thank you.

[Zul-Fiqar786]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

As a white British person who moved to Canada can I be the first to say: Up yours?

Thank you.

Dude, don’t take it personally, but the fact is that as someone who was born in raised in Canada I know my view has greater weight than yours in defining what this country is all about. Canada is an ideological state, and multiculturalism and racial diversity is at our core, along with respect for the Indigenous people and embracing their narrative. Canada isn’t just some colony for some rich Europeans to come here and start acting like they own the place, especially if they aren’t willing to embrace our multiculturalism values. I think its appalling how easy it is for British people to move to Canada like moving from one city to another in their own country. Canada isn’t a province of Britain remember that, but at the same time, people from non-European countries struggle so hard just to make it here because of a very biased but tough immigration system.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Zul-Fiqar786 said:

Dude, don’t take it personally, but the fact is that as someone who was born in raised in Canada I know my view has greater weight than yours in defining what this country is all about. Canada is an ideological state, and multiculturalism and racial diversity is at our core, along with respect for the Indigenous people and embracing their narrative. Canada isn’t just some colony for some rich Europeans to come here and start acting like they own the place, especially if they aren’t willing to embrace our multiculturalism values. I think its appalling how easy it is for British people to move to Canada like moving from one city to another in their own country. Canada isn’t a province of Britain remember that, but at the same time, people from non-European countries struggle so hard just to make it here because of a very biased but tough immigration system.

No, I'm pretty sure my view is equal to yours in weight.  That's what multiculturalism and diversity is all about, after all. 

It certainly out does yours in wisdom and good judgement, if your view on wifebeating is anything to go by.

Edited September 12, 2017 by bcsapper