Venezuela??

[hot enough]

14 minutes ago, Altai said:

Why US does not try to make a coup in Britain or its satellite Canada ? These countries are directly controlled by the "Queen", so dictatorships.

The Queen of England has no real power, Altai, she just puts her seal on all the UK war crimes/terrorist actions. 

The US is too busy directing coups against poor, defenseless countries, from which their wealth is easy to steal.

[Altai]

35 minutes ago, hot enough said:

The Queen of England has no real power, Altai, she just puts her seal on all the UK war crimes/terrorist actions. 

The US is too busy directing coups against poor, defenseless countries, from which their wealth is easy to steal.

Avoid of being a part of herd. She has a huge power. We have discussed this before in another topic, I dont remember which one it was. Please search for her scope of authority. People are just told these democracy lies not to get negavite reaction. She is directly ruling many countries. Ofcourse she is not alone, when I say "she", you understand it as "royal family". 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Altai

[scribblet]

The Queen has very little power at all, she's a figurehead, largely ceremonial who directs nothing unless she's told to, neither does she sign any orders unilaterally.   She may be the 'Chief' but cannot and has never unilaterally deployed Canadian Forces.  She is a Constitutional Monarch who 'reigns' but does NOT rule.  The last Monarch to refuse the passing of legislation was Queen Anne in 1708. 

 

[Altai]

3 hours ago, scribblet said:

The Queen has very little power at all, she's a figurehead, largely ceremonial who directs nothing unless she's told to, neither does she sign any orders unilaterally.   She may be the 'Chief' but cannot and has never unilaterally deployed Canadian Forces.  She is a Constitutional Monarch who 'reigns' but does NOT rule.  The last Monarch to refuse the passing of legislation was Queen Anne in 1708. 

 

Nice story

[scribblet]

20 minutes ago, Altai said:

Nice story

Can't help it if facts are not your cup of tea..   judging from your propaganda, Goebbels would be proud. 

[capricorn]

6 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Can't help it if facts are not your cup of tea..

Altai is not here for facts scribblet. Altai is here to show us the way to Utopia.

[scribblet]

3 minutes ago, capricorn said:

Altai is not here for facts scribblet. Altai is here to show us the way to Utopia.

Yeah.  a politically oppressive Utopia with military conscription and a society that isn't quite free.      

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, cannuck said:

Never heard of Petro Canada??????   Trudeau DID nationalize a part of the industry.    The Sask NDP did as well.  HQ of most of Canada's oil companies were in Regina and Moose Jaw until the NDP nationalized much of it - to Calgary's delight.

Look.  Argus came in and won the point on your behalf ok ?  You're actually taking the argument backwards by bringing up Trudeau Sr. policies from the early 1980s.  If you want to equate all socialism with Mao and Pol Pot then you are just reverse Godwinning and you will force me to come to your home and redistribute your lawn mower to the poor, minus my administration costs of the lawn mower. 

[cannuck]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Look.  Argus came in and won the point on your behalf ok ?  You're actually taking the argument backwards by bringing up Trudeau Sr. policies from the early 1980s.  If you want to equate all socialism with Mao and Pol Pot then you are just reverse Godwinning and you will force me to come to your home and redistribute your lawn mower to the poor, minus my administration costs of the lawn mower. 

Not trying to win a point, but trying to have people understand that genuinely Marxist socialist policies are more than window dressing for web discussions - they are what destroys economies and kill people.   In theory, socialism is a great thing (and in fact, there is no such thing as a government today without some socialistic policies - literally for the good of the people).   It falls apart, though, when you start into the state owning the means of production.  Not only are governments totally inept and running any kind of business, once they have resources to squander, they then have the means to skim, and skim they do.

In a Canadian context, Saskatchewan's flirtation with socialism meant that we had no growth in population from 1925 until 2005.  Our best export was well educated children.  It started with the Great Depression, but once the "cure" of decades of socialist experiments.  The feds didn't do any better.  The disaster of them owning airplane companies (deHaviland, Avro, etc.) and of course the Canadian Wheat Board were perfect examples of why government should be there to GOVERN, not to run things.   Chairman Mao was a world class example as well:  once the state took over the means of agricultural production, the starvation of about 100 million Chinese followed.

This is what brings us back to Venezuela.   The state in ANY country owns the resources and controls who gets to do what within their borders.   Venezuela was just that when they had a government that managed the affairs of state and collected royalties, duties and taxes from resource companies.  They were also a prosperous, wealthy country.   Once the state took over the means of production, they removed EVERYONE from PDVSA (the national oil company) who did not openly align themselves with the Chavez government.   As a result, PDVSA started to lose production of both crude oil and refined products.  Chavez also used his power in control of the petro resources to try to displace US influence in SA and the Caricom, giving countries such as Cuba deals on petro that were far below market, and terms that meant little if any repayment.  He literally bankrupted the country for one to maintain his policies and secondly to service the bond market who's indebtedness not only has drained the country, but mortgaged its future.

Yes, Chavez was elected, and with a mandate to start the "Bolivarian Revolution".   What the people did NOT bargain for was for him to seize control of the resources of the country and piss them away to the extent of impoverishing most of the population.  He maintains this status by skimming billions a month into the hands of the military, judges of the Supreme Court and a few other friends.  It is not a good situation.

[capricorn]

1 hour ago, capricorn said:

Altai is not here for facts scribblet. Altai is here to show us the way to Utopia.

I have been given a warning point for the above post. I think it's time for me to take a sabbatical from this forum. Good luck dealing with the nutbars that have taken over this place.

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, capricorn said:

I have been given a warning point for the above post. I think it's time for me to take a sabbatical from this forum. Good luck dealing with the nutbars that have taken over this place.

Wow.  Really?  I hope you come back soon.  I enjoy your posts, even when I don't agree with them.

[capricorn]

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Wow.  Really?  I hope you come back soon.  I enjoy your posts, even when I don't agree with them.

Thanks Goddess. Always enjoyed reading your opinions.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

In theory, socialism is a great thing (and in fact, there is no such thing as a government today without some socialistic policies - literally for the good of the people).   It falls apart, though, when you start into the state owning the means of production.  Not only are governments totally inept and running any kind of business, once they have resources to squander, they then have the means to skim, and skim they do. 

I agree with this, and enough Canadians do that means that nationalization is not a real threat for now.  I have already declared that I was incorrect to say it wasn't a threat at all.

[hot enough]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Chairman Mao was a world class example as well:  once the state took over the means of agricultural production, the starvation of about 100 million Chinese followed.

You are making broad brush assumptions and conclusions that have no basis in reality. Personality cults don't work well but China is the same communist/socialist country and it is blowing the doors off free enterprise USA. The USA would not be near the country it is, nor would the UK be, had they not been stealing vast sums of other people's wealth. The USA today, is a similar pattern to the Mao China. The only difference is that the poor of the world are the victims, not US citizens. 

Vietnam is a booming communist country. These countries stay communist/strictly controlled solely because they know from long history, the underhanded dealings of western colonial powers. And the US has never changed one bit. 

If the US had done to Canada what the US did to Korea or Vietnam, Canada would have a tightly controlled government. 

You folks who think the US is something good have never had your women folks' breasts slashed off, you've never been poisoned for generations by Agent Orange, you've never had cluster bombs laying around for your kids to play with, you've never been carpet bombed only for wanting the freedom to choose your country's future, you've never had death squads disappearing your children, friends and relatives. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by hot enough

[hot enough]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Chavez also used his power in control of the petro resources to try to displace US influence in SA and the Caricom, giving countries such as Cuba deals on petro that were far below market, and terms that meant little if any repayment.

In this he was a kind leader, one who has never seen an equal in the rapacious US leaders. As was Cuba's Castro. Even with all the economic hardships the people of Cuba have had to endure because of the century of US terrorism, the people of Cuba help poor countries around the world with first class medical care/aid, asking nothing in return. The US only does these things to position US business to rape and pillage. 

The people of Latin America know how deeply evil the US is. The US has invaded every one of those countries to ensure that US business is firmly placed. That isn't free enterprise, that isn't capitalism, that's pure banditry, that's Mafia behavior.

[bush_cheney2004]

40 minutes ago, hot enough said:

In this he was a kind leader, one who has never seen an equal in the rapacious US leaders. As was Cuba's Castro.

 

They were so kind that millions of Chinese, South American, Central American, and Cuban nationals have legally and illegally emigrated to the United States to escape their kindness.   Dictator Castro was good for the Trudeau family, not many Cubans.

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

In this he was a kind leader, one who has never seen an equal in the rapacious US leaders. As was Cuba's Castro. Even with all the economic hardships the people of Cuba have had to endure because of the century of US terrorism, the people of Cuba help poor countries around the world with first class medical care/aid, asking nothing in return. The US only does these things to position US business to rape and pillage. 

The people of Latin America know how deeply evil the US is. The US has invaded every one of those countries to ensure that US business is firmly placed. That isn't free enterprise, that isn't capitalism, that's pure banditry, that's Mafia behavior.

I have never tried to be an appologist for the US, nor is this thread about the USA at all.   It is about what socialism has done to other countries, and in this case, Venezuela.   Not socialism as in social policy, but socialism as in Marxist ownership of the means of production.   I wish you could learn to separate your ravenous dislike of the US from what needs to be done to keep other people alive or better yet comfortable.

Regarding your Chinese post preceding, I don't think you are very well versed in China.   I had an office there for nearly a decade, and worked there extensively throughout the Y2K +/- times.   My business partner was one of the extremely few people who travelled extensively throughout China in the Mao years (one of only a handful of people to do so, particularly unique as he was intimately involved in the Nationalist side of the revolution).  His Mother survived the Japanese occupation and raised a young son at that time, and walked him through the front lines of the Red Army in '46/'47.  She was one of the most important influences in my life and teachers about reality. My best friend from China has just immigrated to SK so we can carry on business OUTSIDE of what you think is a glorious place.  He left one of the very top positions in a national company (had 80,000 people under him) simply to be able to raise his son OUTSIDE of China.   The Chinese Communist Party embraced many of the values of capitalism following the Four Pillars of Modern Reform - that essentially allowed state enterprises to act as state funded and extremely predatory "capitalists" - hardly by following the dictates of Chairman Mao.   When you have lived and worked there in some senior capacity, come back and tell me about it.

What I feel you have bought into is that old divisive strategy of the politics of fear and envy.   Just because the US has done, and probably will do some very bad things, that does not make their system of governance and democracy bad, it makes the people who have abused it bad.   The SAME thing applies to socialism:  the theory is great, but because of the same thing - GREED - it works far worse than the US or Euro version of capitalistic democracies simply because it facilitates centralization of political and economic power that can result in the destruction of vibrant economies or millions of lives.

It is not the ideology that is wrong, it is people that are bad.

Edited August 8, 2017 by cannuck

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I agree with this, and enough Canadians do that means that nationalization is not a real threat for now.  I have already declared that I was incorrect to say it wasn't a threat at all.

Sorry for beating on you a bit, but as you might gather, it is a subject that is not only close to my heart, but has taken a lot of time and money as well as personal sacrifice to participate in opposing.

[Michael Hardner]

29 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Sorry for beating on you a bit, but as you might gather, it is a subject that is not only close to my heart, but has taken a lot of time and money as well as personal sacrifice to participate in opposing.

Fair's fair.  Nationalizing the auto industry is a stupid idea, that is clear to me and most others thank goodness.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, capricorn said:

I have been given a warning point for the above post. I think it's time for me to take a sabbatical from this forum. Good luck dealing with the nutbars that have taken over this place.

That's really unfair given what's taken place of late. Don't leave us... we need more level headed posters!

I've participated in the stupidity too at times, but would rather see things shift to more mature discussion. Something needs to be done that's for sure. But you certainly don't deserve a point for that fairly mild remark.

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, capricorn said:

I have been given a warning point for the above post. I think it's time for me to take a sabbatical from this forum. Good luck dealing with the nutbars that have taken over this place.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, really.  Warning points are an irritant, given the arbitrary nature with which they are handed out, but they do nothing except tell you who it might be a good idea to ignore. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Venezuela needs real leadership like Kathleen Wynne to solve all of its problems.

[cannuck]

57 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Venezuela needs real leadership like Kathleen Wynne to solve all of its problems.

Yeah, then they could just build a few windmills and recover by exporting unicorn farts.

Edited August 9, 2017 by cannuck

[GostHacked]

19 hours ago, scribblet said:

The Queen has very little power at all, she's a figurehead, largely ceremonial who directs nothing unless she's told to, neither does she sign any orders unilaterally.   She may be the 'Chief' but cannot and has never unilaterally deployed Canadian Forces.  She is a Constitutional Monarch who 'reigns' but does NOT rule.  The last Monarch to refuse the passing of legislation was Queen Anne in 1708. 

 

She has more power than 99% of the population. All you need to see to know this is how they are treated around the world. The red carpet goes out everywhere. I mean streets payed by my taxes are CLOSED to me when 'royal' members come to visit. We can also talk about the amount of security needed when they visit/travel.

[GostHacked]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/venezuela-maduro-constitutional-assembly-1.4239881

Heading down the wrong path, well this was started some time ago .. 

Quote

The new constitutional assembly assumed more power in Venezuela by declaring itself as the superior body to all other governmental institutions, including the opposition-controlled congress.

That decree came Tuesday just hours after the assembly delegates took control of a legislative chamber and put up pictures of the late president Hugo Chavez, who installed Venezuela's socialist system.

Delcy Rodriguez, the head of the ruling socialist party and leader of the body, said the unanimously approved decree prohibits lawmakers in congress from taking any action that would interfere with laws passed by the newly installed constitutional assembly.