Venezuela??

cannuck · August 2, 2017

Why is it that nobody has posted about the problems in Venezuela? It certainly is a prominent and very political issue.

My guess is that the abject failure of the Bolivarian Revolution hits too close to home for the left in Canada.

Michael Hardner · August 2, 2017

Maybe so, but the kind of hard-left that Chavez supported sparked pushback even from the left in his own country. "Nationalizing" industries is a direct threat to the powers that be. Few leftists in Canada take this hard line today.

GostHacked · August 2, 2017

If it ain't about Islam or Jews, Putin, Trump, or Selfie Trudeau, no one cares.

I've been paying a bit of attention to it, and well it's not a good situation there. Opposition members jailed, protesters killed, food is expensive and getting scarce.

cannuck · August 2, 2017

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Maybe so, but the kind of hard-left that Chavez supported sparked pushback even from the left in his own country. "Nationalizing" industries is a direct threat to the powers that be. Few leftists in Canada take this hard line today.

Read the Regina Manifesto, and remember that the NDP nationalized potash, oil pipelines, telephones, insurance, electricity, gas - you name it - plunging Saskatchewan into a development dead end for 40+ years. Even the federal government has to be cited for nationalizing much of the aviation industry, had a go at oil and gas with Petro-Can, declared its own monopoly on food through the Canadian Wheat Board. The leftist who did his very best to stall the end of the CWB is now Minister of "Public Safety" in the little Trudeau cabinet. Ever hear about cream quotas? Supply management is alive, if not very well.

GostHacked · August 2, 2017

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Maybe so, but the kind of hard-left that Chavez supported sparked pushback even from the left in his own country. "Nationalizing" industries is a direct threat to the powers that be. Few leftists in Canada take this hard line today.

You mean the powers that be that screw other nations out of their resources?

cannuck · August 2, 2017

2 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

You mean the powers that be that screw other nations out of their resources?

You see, that is EXACTLY what is used as an excuse to nationalize (and, let it be noted, I can understand when it is done for the right reasons and in the right way).

Venezuela has the largest reserves of proven and producible crude oil on the planet (we probably have more if the whole of Athabasca Oil Sands is considered) and when those greedy exploiters ran the business, it was a prosperous and wealthy country. With the Bolivarian Revolution, the full scale of Marxist theology was applied and nationalization took place. BUT: what also happened was what we seem to see every time the left takes control of an economy - positions in the engine of the economy (PDVSA) were all filled by party faithful, displacing the skilled workers who had no affiliation. PDVSA today can not fulfill half of its obligations, either resource, financial or human - pretty much like any other government run institution anywhere on the planet. Worse yet, the whole thing has been run by a megalomaniac who tried to use the country's wealth to promote his own political vision on the regional scene. Chavez just simply gave much of the Caricom a free ride on PDVSA's and Venezuela's back.

You see, the resources BELONG to the people, and the people have 100% of the power to charge those who they permit to extract them whatever they wish. That accountability is gone when the resources are in the hands of a political master. Also, exactly as has happened in so many other socialist revolutions: to maintain power, Chavez and now Maduro have cozied up to the officials of bureaucracies and the military and has been robbing the place blind to make them filthy rich - and maintain the President's base of power. The ports have become so dangerous (vessel owners and operators being shaken down) that nobody wants to allow their vessels to be exposed, so only "the generals" are shipping - and in the case of oil and oil products, to be sold by their minions for their own benefit.

This is not only the problem of socialist states (although one can not help but notice that probably the wealthiest person on this planet supposedly has had nothing but his government paycheque for income - of course I mean Uncle Vlad) but common to almost all resource rich countries (Nigeria comes to mind).

-TSS- · August 2, 2017

Venezuela has certainly joined the already long queue of failed states. It seems that Maduro is even worse than Chavez and the arrest of the opposition-leaders clearly shows that it the country is a dictatorship.

capricorn · August 2, 2017

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Why is it that nobody has posted about the problems in Venezuela? It certainly is a prominent and very political issue.

I have been following developments in that country. I spent a wonderful 3 week holiday in Venezuela in pre-Chavez days. At the time they had just built their modern high speed commuter system in Caracas which the people kept praising. in addition to rampant poverty in recent years the crime rate has skyrocketed. I particularly recall the following.

Quote

Five people were arrested for killing a former beauty queen and her ex-husband in front of their 5-year-old daughter during a botched roadside robbery in Venezuela, police said.

The unidentified suspects were collared after Monica Spear, 29 — a former Miss Venezuela — and Thomas Berry, 39, were shot while trying to resist a band of thieves who attacked them between Puerto Cabello and Velencia on Monday night, officials said.

===

The South American country has the fifth-highest murder rate in the world, according to the United Nations. Violent crime rose to record levels during the 14-year reign of Hugo Chavez, who died of cancer last year.

The fatal shooting was the latest in an ongoing spate of late-night assaults carried out by bandits who disable cars with objects placed on isolated roads.

The couple was heading to Caracas after a New Year’s vacation when their four-door sedan suddenly hit “a sharp object that had been placed on the highway” and punctured at least two tires, Jose Gregorio Sierralta, director of the country’s investigative police, told reporters.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/arrested-killing-venezuela-ex-husband-article-1.1569648

No doubt tourism has taken a hit, yet another blow to their economy. This once vibrant country has been brought to its knees.

scribblet · August 2, 2017

Anyone here want to blame this on the US or Exxon ?

Michael Hardner · August 2, 2017

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Read the Regina Manifesto, and remember that the NDP nationalized potash, oil pipelines, telephones, insurance, electricity, gas - you name it - plunging Saskatchewan into a development dead end for 40+ years.

Just googled it. 1933, right ? Were you intending on proving my point or just wasting time ?

Michael Hardner · August 2, 2017

2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

You mean the powers that be that screw other nations out of their resources?

Yes, them.

cannuck · August 2, 2017

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Just googled it. 1933, right ? Were you intending on proving my point or just wasting time ?

the Regina Manifesto stayedo n the NDP website until just a few years ago. If learning important things is wasting your time...well I guess ignorance really is bliss.

Michael Hardner · August 2, 2017

Just now, cannuck said:

the Regina Manifesto stayedo n the NDP website until just a few years ago. If learning important things is wasting your time...well I guess ignorance really is bliss.

Your tapdancing is so tiresome. Why don't you just admit that nobody is calling for this hard-left stuff ? Is it so hard ?

It's on their website.... right.

cannuck · August 2, 2017

It was on their website. Read it (even google can find it). Canadians need to know what it is the NDP believes in - and acted on. And, today, it is impossible to tell an NDP from a Leberal, it seems.

Michael Hardner · August 2, 2017

12 minutes ago, cannuck said:

And, today, it is impossible to tell an NDP from a Leberal, it seems.

So Trudeau wants to nationalize the oil industry ? Paranoid nonsense.

Argus · August 2, 2017

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Maybe so, but the kind of hard-left that Chavez supported sparked pushback even from the left in his own country. "Nationalizing" industries is a direct threat to the powers that be. Few leftists in Canada take this hard line today.

How is what's going on in Venezuela worse than what happened in Cuba, a place our Prime minister speaks of with glowing words, especially about Castro?

Argus · August 2, 2017

41 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your tapdancing is so tiresome. Why don't you just admit that nobody is calling for this hard-left stuff ? Is it so hard ?

It's on their website.... right.

Niki Ashton, who is running for NDP leadership, is a member of the NDPs Socialist Caucus.

The group is a socialist faction and advocates economic democracy and workers' control, full employment, the nationalization of large industries and the eradication of poverty and homelessness.^[5]

The caucus is anti-imperialist, and condemns many of the actions of the United States' government. It supports the Cuban Revolution^[6] and the withdrawal of Canada from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), the independence of Quebec and is opposed to Zionism.^[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party_Socialist_Caucus

Edited August 2, 2017 by Argus

Michael Hardner · August 3, 2017

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Niki Ashton, who is running for NDP leadership, is a member of the NDPs Socialist Caucus.

The group is a socialist faction and advocates economic democracy and workers' control, full employment, the nationalization of large industries and the eradication of poverty and homelessness.^[5]

OK, clearly you fed me my lunch here. I am stunned that someone running for leadership is trying this. Colour me corrected and humbled.

OftenWrong · August 3, 2017

Lesson learned: Always do a little research before attacking. Some posters are pretty darn smart around here.

Michael Hardner · August 3, 2017

34 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Lesson learned: Always do a little research before attacking. Some posters are pretty darn smart around here.

Well, I enjoy being wrong. I was so certain that an idea like this was dead within the NDP, and egged on by the idea that someone was quoting a pamphlet from 1933. But I learned something.

Hal 9000 · August 3, 2017

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, I enjoy being wrong. I was so certain that an idea like this was dead within the NDP, and egged on by the idea that someone was quoting a pamphlet from 1933. But I learned something.

You must be very happy!

Edited August 3, 2017 by Hal 9000

Michael Hardner · August 3, 2017

6 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

You must be very happy!

Yes, because every time I get something like this from strangers on the internet, it's absolute gold for in-person conversation with people in real life, ie. my bipartisan friends.

scribblet · August 3, 2017

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your tapdancing is so tiresome. Why don't you just admit that nobody is calling for this hard-left stuff ? Is it so hard ?

It's on their website.... right.

The hard left NDP socialist caucus is http://ndpsocialists.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Manifesto-for-a-Socialist-Canada.pdf

Michael Hardner · August 3, 2017

5 minutes ago, scribblet said:

The hard left NDP socialist caucus is http://ndpsocialists.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Manifesto-for-a-Socialist-Canada.pdf

Yes, I have been looking at it. They call for the nationalization of the auto industry, for example. Basically they want a Venezuela situation in Canada IMO.

scribblet · August 3, 2017

14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes, I have been looking at it. They call for the nationalization of the auto industry, for example. Basically they want a Venezuela situation in Canada IMO.

Yes they do. I emailed them once asking about the membership, at that time I was told they believe it was 15 to 20% of the NDP.