Trump's Speech in Warsaw

[August1991]

Two thoughts:

1. There are many things about Trump that I dislike but this speech says much that I think too. We in the West have a wonderful inheritance; we have every reason to defend it.

2. I read through several comment sections in the US online media. I'm surprised by how many leftist Americans are so naive about world affairs. They seem to hate Trump so much that it blinds them. So, I guess the speech also made a few heads explode, as the kids say. 

Quote

“The fundamental question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive,” he said. “Do we have the confidence in our values to defend them at any cost? Do we have enough respect for our citizens to protect our borders? Do we have the desire and the courage to preserve our civilization in the face of those who would subvert and destroy it?”

NYT

Edited July 7, 2017 by August1991

[-TSS-]

No co-incidence he held his speech in Poland instead of the riot-ridden G20-meeting in Germany. The Poles are generally very much in favour of him. Poland and Hungary have become something of black sheep in the EU because of their opposition to the EU-imposed "burden-sharing" meaning placing refugees crossing the Mediterranean.

Of course, those EU-imposed schemes are meaningless to begin with as the refugees themselves have no intention whatsoever to stay in countries such as Poland or Hungary as they want to head for Germany, Sweden and especially Britain.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

President Trump's speech is just another chapter in a book that the EU began writing long ago, all while seeking assurances that the American military would have its back (NATO).   The Soviets waned and now the radical Islamists are at the gates.

The UK finally had enough and voted to leave by the smallest of margins before Trump was ever elected.

Now Merkel has chaos in the streets of Hamburg to clean up before elections in Germany.

To all the globalists and leftists like "post national" Justin Trudeau...be careful what you wish for.

[ZenOps]

Thing is, the west (North America) was built on immigrants from all around the world.

When you say you are "protecting" it, who exactly are you protecting it from?  The indigineous American natives it seems.  Arguably, Europe has a right to protect their lands as it has been their ancestral home for tens of thousands of years, but America - very few can claim more than 80 years of heritage.

[August1991]

21 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

President Trump's speech is just another chapter in a book that the EU began writing long ago, all while seeking assurances that the American military would have its back (NATO).   The Soviets waned and now the radical Islamists are at the gates.

...

I think that Paul Krugman described the US federal government as a tank with good retirement benefits. With the US tank, true, Europe can afford more benefits elsewhere.

But America will have Europe's back, and Trump is saying as much. Trump is just pushing the negotiation along. Indeed, like natives in Canada, it may not even be money that is the problem.

This is what Kennedy, the darling of America's left, said in his inaugural:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

Such ideas are sadly missing from modern political discourse.  Trump has simply revived them. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

...But America will have Europe's back, and Trump is saying as much. Trump is just pushing the negotiation along. Indeed, like natives in Canada, it may not even be money that is the problem.

 

 

The irony is that Europe may find its undoing in the very social welfare state(s) and refugee policies it has embraced, not any military threat.    The Americans and Canadians still have two powerful allies in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, while Europe has but the tiny Mediterranean and Black seas.

While on liberty in southern Europe, I use to think that the pickpockets and street whores were quite the nuisance, but now they have an endearing quality compared to what has followed.

[marcus]

On 7/7/2017 at 4:27 PM, August1991 said:

Two thoughts:

1. There are many things about Trump that I dislike but this speech says much that I think too. We in the West have a wonderful inheritance; we have every reason to defend it.

2. I read through several comment sections in the US online media. I'm surprised by how many leftist Americans are so naive about world affairs. They seem to hate Trump so much that it blinds them. So, I guess the speech also made a few heads explode, as the kids say. 

NYT

“The fundamental question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive,” he said. “Do we have the confidence in our values to defend them at any cost? Do we have enough respect for our citizens to protect our borders? Do we have the desire and the courage to preserve our civilization in the face of those who would subvert and destroy it?”

The biggest threat is not terrorism and protecting our borders. Why fall for this? Why allow them to trick you into focusing on something irrelevant, instead of what really matters? The biggest threat in our world is climate change, the corrupt system that continues to increase the gap between the rich and the poor and the resistance to let go of the old and embrace innovation, technology and advancement.

[DogOnPorch]

6 hours ago, marcus said:

The biggest threat is not terrorism and protecting our borders. Why fall for this? Why allow them to trick you into focusing on something irrelevant, instead of what really matters? The biggest threat in our world is climate change, the corrupt system that continues to increase the gap between the rich and the poor and the resistance to let go of the old and embrace innovation, technology and advancement.

 

Even if climate change IS the greatest problem humanity faces, it make no bloody sense at all to penalize one's own nation while the rest of the planet continues to pollute like it was going-out of style.

If this is a suicide pact, I want the f-----g thing to be MUTUAL.

[Omni]

Luckily there is a movement afoot among US states, cities and businesses who plan to honor the Paris Accord regardless of Trump's position.

[-TSS-]

I would say that the biggest threat to peace and stability is the uncontrollable population-growth in the third world countries. As the population of Africa is now a little over billion people the scariest estimates put the forecast in the year 2100 at 4bn!

If that turns out to be reality then it is a catastrophe. Even though many African countries are making economic progress, some of them quite impressive, all that progress is cancelled out because of too high population-growth.

Fortunately, things don't always go the same way forever. There could be things that turn the tide.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

I would say that the biggest threat to peace and stability is the uncontrollable population-growth in the third world countries. As the population of Africa is now a little over billion people the scariest estimates put the forecast in the year 2100 at 4bn!

If that turns out to be reality then it is a catastrophe. Even though many African countries are making economic progress, some of them quite impressive, all that progress is cancelled out because of too high population-growth.

Fortunately, things don't always go the same way forever. There could be things that turn the tide.

Especially as much of it is going to be an unlivable wasteland by then.  They'll be falling off the edges...

[sharkman]

5 hours ago, Omni said:

Luckily there is a movement afoot among US states, cities and businesses who plan to honor the Paris Accord regardless of Trump's position.

That's great news!  Any state or city that takes concrete actions to 'honor' the Paris Accord will deflate their own economy while states that don't will reap the economic benefits.  I love democracy!

[Omni]

Just now, sharkman said:

That's great news!  Any state or city that takes concrete actions to 'honor' the Paris Accord will deflate their own economy while states that don't will reap the economic benefits.  I love democracy!

Ah nope. They're actually doing it because they want to cash in on new development in renewable energy ratherthan dragging their knuckles through a coal mine as Trump prefers.

[August1991]

15 hours ago, marcus said:

The biggest threat is not terrorism and protecting our borders. Why fall for this? Why allow them to trick you into focusing on something irrelevant, instead of what really matters? The biggest threat in our world is climate change, the corrupt system that continues to increase the gap between the rich and the poor and the resistance to let go of the old and embrace innovation, technology and advancement.

Gap between rich and poor? Never in human history have so few lived so badly. In the past, millions died of starvation. Nowadays, death from starvation is an anomaly. Indeed, the Gini coefficient for the world is decreasing.

https://ourworldindata.org/no-matter-what-global-poverty-line

You won't read about this complex and thorough study in most MSM. As they say, it doesn't fit the narrative.

As to global warming (and let's not play with semantics here), it is not certain whether CO2 is really over 400 ppm, and it's even less certain whether man is the cause of a supposed increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. Finally, It is far from from certain whether CO2 in the atmosphere, at such minuscule levels, even matters.

I agree that no sustainable society can let one individual throw garbage/shit on to the lawn of a neighbour (it doesn't solve the public externality, to use a technical term) but the Left's obsession with CO2 (carbon dioxide, not carbon; CO2 or carbon dioxide tax not carbon tax; global warming not climate change) has probably caused more harm than good.

======

I don't know if "terrorism" is really the threat. It's something else; it's an unwillingness to defend what is good.

I think Queen Victoria lived through about 8 or so terrorist attacks. In the 19th century, terrorist attacks against monarchs/politicians were common. This eventually lead to the cataclysm of a devastating world war. Nowadays, terrorist attacks are against ordinary people.  Where will that lead?

===

"... embrace innovation, technology and advancement."

As if it were so simple. I'm old enough to remember thalidomide, residential schools and public housing presented, by wise, informed experts, as an  "advancement" - progress.

Sorry, Marcus, I'm a conservative. I prefer gradual change to revolution; I prefer frequent minor occasional tremors - rather than have long periods of stability punctuated by cataclysmic earthquakes.

Edited July 9, 2017 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, August1991 said:

  Finally, It is far from from certain whether CO2 in the atmosphere, at such minuscule levels, even matters.

I doubt there has ever been a post on any forum, anywhere, that referenced the Gini coefficient for the world and also denied the Greenhouse effect.

 

"The sky above... the mud below...."

[August1991]

On 7/10/2017 at 2:03 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I doubt there has ever been a post on any forum, anywhere, that referenced the Gini coefficient for the world and also denied the Greenhouse effect.

 

"The sky above... the mud below...."

I don't want to redirect this thread but there's a good (Canadian) Netflix series available entitled: The Same Sky (Ein Himmel). It's about people in East Germany and West Germany. They live in the same time zone, in the same language, in the same culture, under one sky - but in different countries, indeed different political/theological/philosophical societies.

Edited July 11, 2017 by August1991

[taxme]

On 7/7/2017 at 4:27 PM, August1991 said:

Two thoughts:

1. There are many things about Trump that I dislike but this speech says much that I think too. We in the West have a wonderful inheritance; we have every reason to defend it.

2. I read through several comment sections in the US online media. I'm surprised by how many leftist Americans are so naive about world affairs. They seem to hate Trump so much that it blinds them. So, I guess the speech also made a few heads explode, as the kids say. 

NYT

It was a great speech to a people who know what communism was all about, and do not want the EU to give them anymore communism by the globalist Zionist elite. 

[Michael Hardner]

On 7/7/2017 at 7:27 PM, August1991 said:

They seem to hate Trump so much that it blinds them.  

This is definitely true.  Trump is in a position to do a lot of great things, actually, and if anything good comes out of it, it will be missed/ignored by the MSM, the public, and people like me.

[taxme]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is definitely true.  Trump is in a position to do a lot of great things, actually, and if anything good comes out of it, it will be missed/ignored by the MSM, the public, and people like me.

Trump is ready willing and able to do great things for America and the American people. It is the liberal/democrats, and the fake news media who have said that they will fight every step of the way to make sure that Trump does not get to complete is agenda of trying to make America great again. Now if only we can get rid of trudeau and then make Canada great again. 

[AsksWhy]

Quote

“The fundamental question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive,” he said. “Do we have the confidence in our values to defend them at any cost? Do we have enough respect for our citizens to protect our borders? Do we have the desire and the courage to preserve our civilization in the face of those who would subvert and destroy it?” - www.nytimes.com

"confidence in our values" ... What are OUR values as a collective whole?  I think it might be hard for the West (or any other division) to draw a line in the sand on this one.

"respect for our citizens to protect our borders" ... Protect our borders from who (or what)?  Are these real or perceived fears?

"desire and courage to preserve our civilization in the face of those who would subvert and destroy it" ... What exactly is OUR CIVILIZATION? Again, probably tough to define.

----------------------------

IMO, we all seem a little dazed and confused these days. We don't know how to share this planet, so we stake claims on everything. As such, we are left divided and tuned to the fear of what we might lose, trapping us in realms of distrust and conflict, or an us vs them reality; analogous to what we are seeing from Trump and his administration (US vs the World).

More concerning, is that our mainstream business model reinforces and protects this reality (knowingly or not); thus, we are likely to continue down this path until a critical point is reached (possibly a Global Climate Crisis).

Personally, I think we can avoid such an event, if we can devise a plan to phase out personal ownership and share things as a collective whole. Along the way, we might discover reasonable approaches to controlling the human population, creating a sustainable environment for everyone. Perhaps a complete revision of the current business model should be considered.

The conundrum: How to do this under the current mindset? ... which is: What's in it for me - now?

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, AsksWhy said:

How to do this under the current mindset? ... which is: What's in it for me - now?

Create a new money system that covers basic needs, and only accept 'old' money at a discount.

[Argus]

On 7/8/2017 at 10:16 AM, ZenOps said:

Thing is, the west (North America) was built on immigrants from all around the world.

When you say you are "protecting" it, who exactly are you protecting it from?  The indigineous American natives it seems.  Arguably, Europe has a right to protect their lands as it has been their ancestral home for tens of thousands of years, but America - very few can claim more than 80 years of heritage.

It's already built. We don't need any more help building. And remember, this isn't the old days. In the old days, you came here, and you supported yourself and your family, or you went home, or you died. And nobody cared which. Now you come and you get all kinds of government assistance - which means money from the rest of us. And if you can't make it? meh, just let the government pay for everything. You saying we don't have the right to say "NO!" to that?

[Argus]

On 7/14/2017 at 7:48 AM, AsksWhy said:

"confidence in our values" ... What are OUR values as a collective whole?  I think it might be hard for the West (or any other division) to draw a line in the sand on this one.

It's like art. Define art. Well, I know it when I see it. We can more definitely state what is not art, and what are not our values. Female genital mutilation, for example, is not one of them. Wife beating/rape: not one of them. Killing or jailing homosexuals: not one of them. Women defined in law as inferior and required to obey men and wear sacks over their heads: not one of them. Gender separation: Not one of them. Societal laws governed by religion: not one of them. Bans on blaspheme and insulting religious figures: not one of them. Sexual harassment: not one of them.

One value I'd like to call collective which is sadly in decline: Self reliance.

On 7/14/2017 at 7:48 AM, AsksWhy said:

"respect for our citizens to protect our borders" ... Protect our borders from who (or what)?  Are these real or perceived fears?

I think as we've seen in Europe, if you allow masses of foreigners to flood into your nation in a short period of time, and they are not assimilated, then what you've done is established foreign influences that water down your own values and culture. The more of them you have, the more watered down you are, until suddenly, hey, the signs are in foreign languages, and there are gender separations in the swimming pools, and half the girls in school wear hijabs and women are harassed at the beaches and pools and in the streets. Then you have police with automatic weapons everywhere, trying to keep order, and you need to spend five hours in a line before you can get on Parliament Hill for a celebration for fear someone might want to blow themselves up...

Do you think the Poles have to do a careful airport type search of everyone entering a celebration? Nope. Nor do they wish to start.

On 7/14/2017 at 7:48 AM, AsksWhy said:

Personally, I think we can avoid such an event, if we can devise a plan to phase out personal ownership and share things as a collective whole.

Marxism has never worked anywhere. And 'sharing personal ownership' means me sharing what I own with people in Africa who own nothing. No thanks.

[Argus]

On 7/14/2017 at 8:00 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Create a new money system that covers basic needs, and only accept 'old' money at a discount.

Why is the theories of the far right are properly held in contempt but people keep trying to regurgitate idiotic theories of the far left which have long been proven unworkable?

Cover people's basic needs and an alarming number will take the rest of their lives off. And who pays for that? The declining number who work. Which, of course, means their tax rates rise higher and higher and their performance and productivity declines since, well, what's the point of trying to get ahead when the Marxists will make sure you can't?

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

1) Cover people's basic needs and an alarming number will take the rest of their lives off. And who pays for that?

2) The declining number who work. Which, of course, means their tax rates rise higher and higher and their performance and productivity declines since, well, what's the point of trying to get ahead when the Marxists will make sure you can't?

1) This was the argument against Welfare and EI in the first part of the 20th century.

2) If there is no work to do, and those who are running businesses are making that much more then there really only is one way this can go.  Income Tax has been a feature of the US govt continuously since 1913, Canada instituted their "temporary" tax in 1918.