The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

[Argus]

3 hours ago, jacee said:

Canada has always had a steady stream of immigrants through the application process, and also waves of people displaced from their own countries by wars, famine, etc. This has been the same since before Canada was Canada.

The past is not the present. Never before in Canada's history has the technological, cultural and social gulf been as enormous between Canada and its main immigration source countries. Never before in Canada's history has it been so easy to get here from other countries. And never before in Canada's history has this country promised so much in expensive services to every citizen. A hundred years ago it took a lot of grit and determination to come here, and if they couldn't make it they died or went home. Now they go on welfare and the rest of us have to support them. And even if they don't go on welfare, if they are working at Wal-mart, or earning a low to moderate wage - especially if they have a non-working wife and multiple kids - they pay no income taxes despite requiring enormously expensive government services.

Further, never before in history was it so easy for newcomers to keep in close contact with their home countries. If they came here a hundred years ago they could maybe hope for an occasional letter from their homeland. Now they watch satellite TV from their homeland, and can skype with their friends and family back home every day. Air fares are cheap enough they can return home often too. All of which means they are much slower to assimilate than was once the case.

[Argus]

For lazy people, I would like to reiterate that this topic was not intended to merely discuss immigration, but to discuss the personality behind the support and opposition to immigration. It is based on a lecture from Jonathan Haidt, a social scientist.

Haidt puts our sense of social morality into five distinct categories.

Harm/care  (protecting from harm, caring for the helpless)
Fairness/reciprocity
Ingroup/loyalty (tribal feelings, affinity for and loyalty to the group
Authority/respect
Purity/sanctity

Open people ie liberals, only embrace the first two, and generally place little value or even oppose the last three. Closed people, ie conservatives, embrace all five. So it's not that they don't value harm/care and fairness/reciprocity, but they have these other values which they take into consideration.

So now we look at how open people will treat immigration vs closed people. Open people love diversity, change (even if it causes chaos) and novelty. They don't have much respect for traditions and don't have much group loyalty. Conservatives are almost the opposite. They embrace group loyalty and respect for institutions and traditions.

So if masses of immigrants from wildly different cultures are brought to Canada on a continuing basis, open people love it. They have no care or concern for how that might dammage or diminish our traditional institutions since they don't have much respect for them to begin with. Their care and concern, aside from loving the change and novelty, is an earnest desire to help those foreigners, be they immigrants or refugees, to lead a better life here.

Conservatives place much higher value on our traditions and on loyalty to the group. They like things more or less the way they are and don't want our 'tribe' swamped by members of other tribes. They fear chaos and a lack of order.

Since 'open' people( those on the left) place no real importance on the concerns which affect 'closed' people (those on the right) they tend to simply dismiss their concerns as racism or xenophobia. Conservatives, in turn, tend to regard the enthusiasm for immigration/refugees from those on the Left as the result of short sighted idiocy, with overtones of treason (betrayal of the need to be loyal to and protect the grou

Edited August 12, 2017 by Argus

[Hal 9000]

I would like to add my opinion on one thing; I don't a moderator should hope for a member's death.  It seems a tad bias to me. 

[marcus]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

Wrong again! Why are you always wrong? Shouldn't you try to at least be right occasionally? Maybe you should do a little studying on how our immigration system works.Language proficiency does constitute about 15% of the available points. However, Canada does not test language proficiency. It contracts that to private schools in the region. Most of our immigration source countries are highly corrupt, and you can buy virtually any local document for a few dollars in the right hand.

Uhm. No. You are wrong again.

This is how it works:

The 15% advantage for language is enough to give them an overall advantage because the other factors are: Work Experience, Education and Age, which no one has an advantage in.

The language test they take is an internationally accepted language test called IELTS. It has a specific format and it's usually administered at the British Council. It's highly scrutinized and it must be verified by the British Council. It would be extremely difficult to fake it.

Second. Your chances of immigrating to Canada are more dependent on how many visas have been made available to your local visa office and how much demand there is for them among qualified people. For the 2016 time period just over 12,000 visas were made available to the London visa office. The London office serves the United Kingdom, but also  Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, Finland Norway and Sweden.

Wrong again Argus.

Your chances of immigrating to Canada is based on how many points you have. The Express Entry pool has around 70,000 applications in it. Each month, around 8000 applicants are selected based on their points. These points have nothing to do with the visa office. It's strictly about the points.

 

[Hal 9000]

2 minutes ago, marcus said:

Uhm. No. You are wrong again.

This is how it works:

The 15% advantage for language is enough to give them an overall advantage because the other factors are: Work Experience, Education and Age, which no one has an advantage in.

The language test they take is an internationally accepted language test called IELTS. It has a specific format and it's usually administered at the British Council. It's highly scrutinized and it must be verified by the British Council. It would be extremely difficult to fake it.

 

 

Wrong again Argus.

Your chances of immigrating to Canada is based on how many points you have. The Express Entry pool has around 70,000 applications in it. Each month, around 8000 applicants are selected based on their points. These points have nothing to do with the visa office. It's strictly about the points.

 

What does it matter, most if not all are staying.

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, jacee said:

Canada has always had a steady stream of immigrants through the application process, and also waves of people displaced from their own countries by wars, famine, etc. This has been the same since before Canada was Canada.

And during every wave, there are always a few people crying 'IT'S A CATASTROPHY!!!'

It never is.

And life goes on.

Some people just like to create drama.

Some people just like to blame and hate.

Most of us just want to live our lives in peace, grateful to be Canadian and not haters, and welcome new people to join us in that. 

Happy summer, folks!

Enjoy! 

 

The present entry of illegal migrants into Quebec is a catastrophe contrary to what you think.  Obviously you don't know what's going on.  The number of migrants coming has been witnessed by Faith Goldie from the Rebel Media in order to find the truth of what's going on.  She counted about 15 an hour.  That works out to about 360 a day.  Quebec  does not have the facilities to properly house this number of people.   They are running shuttle buses now to pick up the illegals when they cross in.  The Armed Forces are putting up tents somewhere to house them.  If this continues at this rate, it could run to near 100,000 or more a year.  This is a large percentage of the number of immigrants Canada lets in legally.  But Canada screens all immigrants before admitting them legally.  They are screened for their education, skills, whether they speak one of the two official languages, etc.  so that they will be able to support themselves and not live off welfare indefinitely.  These people coming in illegally have not been screened, even to check for criminal records.  If they are here illegally they probably won't get a work permit and will have to be put on social assistance.  This could be very expensive. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by blackbird

[dialamah]

31 minutes ago, blackbird said:

She counted about 15 an hour.  That works out to about 360 a day

Assuming that rate holds steady for every hour of every day, which is extremely doubtful.

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Assuming that rate holds steady for every hour of every day, which is extremely doubtful.

You seem to think this is a minor issue.  Well we don't know what the actual numbers will be for this year and next.  In any case we could be getting tens of thousands of illegal migrants per year.  This is going to be very expensive for Canada not only in terms of direct financial costs for living expenses, policing, immigration proceedings costs, dep for lawyers, appeals, court costs, etc., deportation costs, but will probably result in increased crime and social problems, which is extremely costly as well.  Canada has an extremely lenient refugee appeal system that can drag on for years, costing the taxpayers thousands of dollars per claim.

Edited August 12, 2017 by blackbird

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

You seem to think this is a minor issue.  Well we don't know what the actual numbers will be for this year and next.  In any case we could be getting tens of thousands of illegal migrants per year.  This is going to be very expensive for Canada not only in terms of direct financial costs for living expenses, policing, immigration proceedings costs, deportation costs, but will probably result in increased crime and social problems, which is extremely costly as well.

Well, the right seems to have spent a lot of time over the last couple of decades predicting chaos/catastrophe and the end of life as we know it but as a country we still seem to be doing pretty good, so forgive me if I don't cower in a corner just yet.

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well, the right seems to have spent a lot of time over the last couple of decades predicting chaos/catastrophe and the end of life as we know it but as a country we still seem to be doing pretty good, so forgive me if I don't cower in a corner just yet.

That's your privilege.   I'm just giving my own personal view and warning that this is likely to be a costly disaster for Canada.  The right has not spent a lot of time predicting chaos but we certainly are in for great expense and problems as a result of the liberal ideas of open doors and encouraging phony refugees to come here.

Years ago I wrote a letter to the federal justice department to ask why a foreigner who was wanted for murdering several people in the U.S. was still in Canada after about five years of appeals and legal challenges.  They wrote back to me and told me everyone has the right to appeal through the legal system. (even if it takes five years or more)  There you have it.  The liberals put the rights of criminals and illegal migrants ahead of ordinary Canadians.  

There are other examples of this kind of thing.  There have been people suspected or known to be Nazis from WW2 that have fought deportation for decades and never been deported.

Edited August 12, 2017 by blackbird

[Argus]

3 hours ago, marcus said:

The language test they take is an internationally accepted language test called IELTS. It has a specific format and it's usually administered at the British Council.

It is given and tested by a variety of local language schools, where it should be given by the local consulate or embassy.

3 hours ago, marcus said:

Your chances of immigrating to Canada is based on how many points you have.

You aren't going to be coming here if 12,300 visas have already been given out in the UK. Period. No more can be awarded that year.

[Argus]

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well, the right seems to have spent a lot of time over the last couple of decades predicting chaos/catastrophe and the end of life as we know it but as a country we still seem to be doing pretty good, so forgive me if I don't cower in a corner just yet.

Rome didn't die in a day or a year. It was a slow progression. But it still died and left us in the dark ages for centuries. No doubt some of the members pointed out that progression, and pointed out policies which were leading it in the wrong direction, and no doubt lazy-minded people laughed and said "Look how strong we are! Don't worry! Be happy!"

Of course, by the time the situation gets blatantly obvious even to idiots it's a little late to do much about it.

[marcus]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

It is given and tested by a variety of local language schools, where it should be given by the local consulate or embassy.

You aren't going to be coming here if 12,300 visas have already been given out in the UK. Period. No more can be awarded that year.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but you don't seem to understand how Express Entry and Permanent Residency applications work.

There is no quota per visa office when it comes to permanent residency. Everyone who applies is put into one pool and people are picked based on their points.

For example, last round was August 9th and 3000 people were picked. Their country of origin was not considered. Only their total points: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/express-entry/rounds.asp

[CITIZEN_2015]

I don't think it is a matter of left and right really. It is a matter of an opinion as what is good for the country and people who live in it and our future generations. Accepting a large number of people mostly from incompatible cultures (Asia and Africa) is not going to do any good to either of above factors. Especially uncontrolled refugees and illegal immigrants mostly without skills and contributions who may remain on social programs for years and decades or get into crimes and make our cities and streets unsafe. We generally need about 100,000 to max 150,000 selected compatible skilled immigrants per year to benefit the country the most. We are not doing this.

I consider myself center. Neither right nor left and though generally I support skilled immigration but oppose the uncontrolled arrival of refugees and illegal immigrants who are mostly from third world countries and significant number have health problems (like Somalis) jamming up our already jammed health care so that those seniors born in Canada and long time tax payers cannot receive the care they need. I don't have to belong to either left r right to see these facts. I just need to have a pair of eyes and a few active cells above them.

And for those who may accuse me of being on the right, or anti-immigrant, I am an immigrant myself and frequently been accused of being a left extremist!!!! because of my posts supporting the weak and underdogs.

[DogOnPorch]

Might as well destroy Canada and see what happens.

100 million 3rd world cast-offs. We can do it!

[eyeball]

26 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Might as well destroy Canada and see what happens.

We did that in the stampede to sign on to globalization. 

Recall how we were told the rising tide would lift all boats?

Quote

100 million 3rd world cast-offs. We can do it!

We just need a bigger boat is all.

[drummindiver]

18 hours ago, dialamah said:

Well, the right seems to have spent a lot of time over the last couple of decades predicting chaos/catastrophe and the end of life as we know it but as a country we still seem to be doing pretty good, so forgive me if I don't cower in a corner just yet.

Again, no concern for the law of the land if it's broken by immigrants. Sorry, illegal immigrants.

[drummindiver]

On 09/08/2017 at 4:09 PM, taxme said:

Go back and read over what you wrote. What else is one suppose to come up with?  You said that you have aspirations for the demise of opinions? I guess that must mean that any opinions that you don't like should not be allowed to be heard or posted. What kind of a moderator are you anyway? You are a very strange one. Just saying. 

He tells opposing views to leave so he will have domain over his echo chamber.

And seriously, Caucasian is a made up race? 

MH is a more open personality than JT. Uses vitriol to attack anyone who thinks immigration should be done responsibly. Well, for any opinion that doesn't match his. 

Globally, there are far more restrictions on immigration from left countries than from right. As has been said before, you'll never see a black person on the Chinese swim team. But let's put it down to right wing extremism, right MH?

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

 

MH is a more open personality than JT. Uses vitriol to attack anyone who thinks immigration should be done responsibly. Well, for any opinion that doesn't match his. 

Not really. I am good with honest discussion, which is why I want the lying anti-Semitic Zionist conspiracy types, and irrational race-baiters to go away.

[Michael Hardner]

That reminds me... We haven't seen condemnation of the white supremacist terrorism here from the usual suspects.  

[Argus]

16 hours ago, marcus said:

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but you don't seem to understand how Express Entry and Permanent Residency applications work.

We allow in more people as refugees than we do under express entry. 

 

[Argus]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That reminds me... We haven't seen condemnation of the white supremacist terrorism here from the usual suspects.  

And you thought this was the right place to state this? 

[drummindiver]

24 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That reminds me... We haven't seen condemnation of the white supremacist terrorism here from the usual suspects.  

......just as we never see condemnation of immigration abuses here. You know, on an immigration thread.

Sunny ways!

[dialamah]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That reminds me... We haven't seen condemnation of the white supremacist terrorism here from the usual suspects.  

What's the point, really?  We can condemn White Supremacist terrorism and alt-left or alt-right terrorism and Muslims can condemn Islamic terorism till the cows come home, it changes nothing.  

Some contingent of any group seems to choose to see itself as oppressed and victims and to then decide its their god-given right and duty to stand up for themselves and show "those" people by whatever means necessary.  And when someone gets hurt or dies, they gleefully point to 'those' people as being responsible, whether its a particular group, the current government or the former government.

With any luck, I will be dead before this pervasive hate and blame returns us to another dark age.  Or ignorance and denial results in Climate Change simply killing off most or all humans.

 

 

[marcus]

del.

Edited August 13, 2017 by marcus