Vimy Ridge Battle 100th Anniversary Today

[eyeball]

34 minutes ago, Topaz said:

My hubby had  both grfathers fight in WW1. His mothers father got gassed and was sent home and ended up in a hospital were he died..he never saw his only child born...but they named a street after him. Did anyone else have a relative  in the war?

Both my grandfathers were there. One got gassed and got shot in the leg. The other was a medic. 

 

58 minutes ago, Wilber said:

I don't know what they would feel, I just presented that as an alternate opinion. What they would feel would depend on their individual personalities and experiences. Whatever that might be, they earned the right to feel it. We didn't.

All the participants are dead now and can no longer tell us, so feel free to make up whatever you want.

You can read how some felt.

http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/world_war_one_soldier_men_who_wish_they_hadnt_gone_to_war-pdf

[Boges]

WW1 was a useless war and only lead to an even worse war. Doesn't take away the fact that Canadians acted bravely in winning a battle that many others thought was impossible. 

[jbg]

17 minutes ago, Boges said:

WW1 was a useless war and only lead to an even worse war. Doesn't take away the fact that Canadians acted bravely in winning a battle that many others thought was impossible.

Canadians are the best! (besides maybe Americans)

[Wilber]

33 minutes ago, Boges said:

WW1 was a useless war and only lead to an even worse war.

The same would apply to many wars, maybe even most wars.

 

Quote

 

Doesn't take away the fact that Canadians acted bravely in winning a battle that many others thought was impossible. 

 

There is no nobility in denigrating others and what they did in another time. Pretending that they would somehow be wiser if they had been put in the same position 100 years ago.

 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Wilber said:

The same would apply to many wars, maybe even most wars.

WW1 was a special kind of dumb. You have Canadians killing Germans because a beef between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. 

[overthere]

One of the best outcome of battles like Vimy, and WWI in general, was that Canadians learned never to have foreign commands- like British and French generals/polticians- send thousands of your soldiers to utterly pointless deaths.

 

Our generals may have done the same things in the trenches, but at least then Canadians would be somewhat accountable for decisions and outcomes.

[Wilber]

Just now, Boges said:

WW1 was a special kind of dumb. You have Canadians killing Germans because a beef between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. 

It was a little more than that. It is extremely unlikely that Canadians, or the British for that matter  would have gone to war because of a beef between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. The German invasion of Belgium and France had been planned a good 10 years before # Schlieffen Plan,  because of what the Germans considered unfinished business from the Franco Prussian War, and before that the Napoleonic Wars and before that, The Seven Years  War, etc etc etc.  Britain went to war because if its commitment to Belgium's independence, just as it entered WW2 because of Poland. This was consistent with Britain's long standing European foreign policy of backing the weaker side in order to maintain a balance of power in Europe, hopefully to make conflict between European powers less likely and prevent a single power from dominating the continent, be it Louis XIV, Napoleon, particular Russian Czars, Wilhelm II or Hitler. Which would of course present a threat to Britain.

The EU came about because of a desire never to do that again. It certainly has its faults but I don't understand why so many people dislike the idea behind it.

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, overthere said:

One of the best outcome of battles like Vimy, and WWI in general, was that Canadians learned never to have foreign commands- like British and French generals/polticians- send thousands of your soldiers to utterly pointless deaths.

Following the utterly pointless orders of our own politicians/plutocracy is a poor consolation prize.

[eyeball]

12 minutes ago, Wilber said:

It was a little more than that. It is extremely unlikely that Canadians, or the British for that matter  would have gone to war because of a beef between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. The German invasion of Belgium and France had been planned a good 10 years before # Schlieffen Plan,  because of what the Germans considered unfinished business from the Franco Prussian War, and before that the Napoleonic Wars and before that, The Seven Years  War, etc etc etc.  Britain went to war because if its commitment to Belgium's independence, just as it entered WW2 because of Poland. This was consistent with Britain's long standing European foreign policy of backing the weaker side in order to maintain a balance of power in Europe, hopefully to make conflict between European powers less likely and prevent a single power from dominating the continent, be it Louis XIV, Napoleon, particular Russian Czars, Wilhelm II or Hitler. Which would of course present a threat to Britain.

 

Sounds like the real policy was more about protect/maintaining British domination.

 

Quote

The EU came about because of a desire never to do that again. It certainly has its faults but I don't understand why so many people dislike the idea behind it.

Well, I'd suggest it's just too damned socialist as far as North America's dislike for it goes, especially amongst conservative right-wingers.

[Wilber]

24 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Sounds like the real policy was more about protect/maintaining British domination.

 

 

Well it was certainly about protecting Britain. Britain's strength was in her navy, her army was small compared to Continental armies. At the beginning of WWI, the British army including reserves was less than a quarter the size of either the French or German armies, 30% smaller even than the Italian army. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

Interesting perspective on Vimy Ridge:

 

Quote

...The United States has Yorktown and Lexington, Mexico has the Battle of Puebla, Chile remembers the battle of Chacabuco and Colombia the battle of Boyaca.

A common thread connects those battles: All were fought on home soil against the European colonial powers that claimed dominion over the Americas. In other words, they were actual battles for independence.

Only Canada claims to have achieved independence from its colonial master by fighting for that colonial power on European soil.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/chanak-affair-canada-britain-vimy-independence-1.4061740

 

[capricorn]

To Eyeball and Topaz, and others on here whose relatives have served, I'm so very grateful for their service.

[Rue]

9 hours ago, overthere said:

One of the best outcome of battles like Vimy, and WWI in general, was that Canadians learned never to have foreign commands- like British and French generals/polticians- send thousands of your soldiers to utterly pointless deaths.

 

Our generals may have done the same things in the trenches, but at least then Canadians would be somewhat accountable for decisions and outcomes.

Yes well said and the point Army referred to. I am happy Blackbird started the post. Some of us still bow our heads. defer to your comments ad Army's and Birds and  everytibg Wilber said.

[ZenOps]

Wars have been fought for crazy things.  The American Revolution was pretty crazy.  I mean sure, they put it down in the history books as people fighting against slavery, but that just means that the entire other half which only lost by a small margin, nearly 50% of the population was fighting *to keep* slavery.

Locally here in Calgary, they shut down a park north of Princes Island.  Totally messed up my pokemon hunt for the day.  Found it odd that civilians were not allowed to watch the Vimy parade or whatever.  Maybe they thought the cameras would catch too many bums and out of work pokemon hunters.

[DogOnPorch]

14 minutes ago, ZenOps said:

Wars have been fought for crazy things.  The American Revolution was pretty crazy.  I mean sure, they put it down in the history books as people fighting against slavery, but that just means that the entire other half which only lost by a small margin, nearly 50% of the population was fighting *to keep* slavery.

Locally here in Calgary, they shut down a park north of Princes Island.  Totally messed up my pokemon hunt for the day.  Found it odd that civilians were not allowed to watch the Vimy parade or whatever.  Maybe they thought the cameras would catch too many bums and out of work pokemon hunters.

 

Uhhh...I think you're referring to the US Civil War...and if you think every Reb soldier had a slave at home, you're misinformed. The average Confederate soldier was a cotton share cropper with no shoes and a very old smoothbore musket.

[PIK]

On 4/10/2017 at 11:07 AM, eyeball said:

Both my grandfathers were there. One got gassed and got shot in the leg. The other was a medic. 

 

You can read how some felt.

http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/world_war_one_soldier_men_who_wish_they_hadnt_gone_to_war-pdf

Grandfather and uncle in WW1,the uncle never came home. A few in WW2, 2 uncles in the air force, uncle was a tank driver and one uncle died at dieppe.

[Army Guy]

On 4/10/2017 at 2:12 AM, August1991 said:

At Vimy Ridge in 1917, about 3500 Canadian soldiers died among a population of 8 million at the time.

At Beaumont-Hamel in 1916, about 700 Newfoundlanders died among a population of 250,000.

=====

Nevertheless, I reckon that the mining of June 1917 decided the course of the war.

The craters, still today, are visible.

Mining did play a huge role in Vimy sucess, but so did many other things also played a huge role, like the rolling barrage, invented and show cased for the first time in vimy, this invention allowed Canadian infantry to walk up to the enemy trench lines , while Germany infantry were pinned down, not able to get set up on the tops of the trenches with thier machine guns....Sounding and flash reporting , developed by Canadians to spot and pin piot enemy arty guns, was used before the attack , allowing our arty to eliminate or thin their guns....Table top models , Only Vimy was huge scale model showing in detail the enemies positions from every trench, gun, enemy emplacement, "every company" involved in the attack got to spend time studying it rehearsing their responsibilities... MAP's another huge asset, every SNRNCO, officer, had paper maps , that describe their route to all their objectives, on it was marked all enemy positions, trenches, enemy troop concentrations, medical aid stations, etc etc....

Vimy although not the turning point in the war , was a victory when allied troops needed it, it also seen massive improvements on how to conduct a massive troop assault. improvements that are still used today, or still taught as a back up method to the tech we have today, such as sound and flash reporting for arty, MAPs, and ground sandboxes still used today....rehearsals of actual battle procedures to be used.....is an everyday tech that our soldiers are taught as tool on the modern battle field.....

And while they may not seem like much.....they changed how we fight, forever not just the Canadians but the entire world adapted these techs in one of there many forms.....

[PIK]

On 4/10/2017 at 0:35 PM, Wilber said:

It was a little more than that. It is extremely unlikely that Canadians, or the British for that matter  would have gone to war because of a beef between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. The German invasion of Belgium and France had been planned a good 10 years before # Schlieffen Plan,  because of what the Germans considered unfinished business from the Franco Prussian War, and before that the Napoleonic Wars and before that, The Seven Years  War, etc etc etc.  Britain went to war because if its commitment to Belgium's independence, just as it entered WW2 because of Poland. This was consistent with Britain's long standing European foreign policy of backing the weaker side in order to maintain a balance of power in Europe, hopefully to make conflict between European powers less likely and prevent a single power from dominating the continent, be it Louis XIV, Napoleon, particular Russian Czars, Wilhelm II or Hitler. Which would of course present a threat to Britain.

The EU came about because of a desire never to do that again. It certainly has its faults but I don't understand why so many people dislike the idea behind it.

Then the germans took a  break and rearmed for #2

[PIK]

And the wristwatch was born.

[DogOnPorch]

9 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Mining did play a huge role in Vimy sucess, but so did many other things also played a huge role, like the rolling barrage, invented and show cased for the first time in vimy, this invention allowed Canadian infantry to walk up to the enemy trench lines , while Germany infantry were pinned down, not able to get set up on the tops of the trenches with thier machine guns....Sounding and flash reporting , developed by Canadians to spot and pin piot enemy arty guns, was used before the attack , allowing our arty to eliminate or thin their guns....Table top models , Only Vimy was huge scale model showing in detail the enemies positions from every trench, gun, enemy emplacement, "every company" involved in the attack got to spend time studying it rehearsing their responsibilities... MAP's another huge asset, every SNRNCO, officer, had paper maps , that describe their route to all their objectives, on it was marked all enemy positions, trenches, enemy troop concentrations, medical aid stations, etc etc....

Vimy although not the turning point in the war , was a victory when allied troops needed it, it also seen massive improvements on how to conduct a massive troop assault. improvements that are still used today, or still taught as a back up method to the tech we have today, such as sound and flash reporting for arty, MAPs, and ground sandboxes still used today....rehearsals of actual battle procedures to be used.....is an everyday tech that our soldiers are taught as tool on the modern battle field.....

And while they may not seem like much.....they changed how we fight, forever not just the Canadians but the entire world adapted these techs in one of there many forms.....

https://geographicalimaginations.com/tag/barrage/

Rolling Barrage map...near Ypres

[Wilber]

16 minutes ago, PIK said:

Then the germans took a  break and rearmed for #2

Mostly because the Allies screwed up the peace that followed the war. Retaliation took precedence over stability.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Wilber said:

Mostly because the Allies screwed up the peace that followed the war. Retaliation took precedence over stability.

In soooooo many ways, too.

Liddell B Hart invented the Blitzkrieg...but it took Heinz Guderian to bring it into reality.

https://archive.org/details/GuderianHeinzAchtungPanzer1937

[Wilber]

2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

In soooooo many ways, too.

Liddell B Hart invented the Blitzkrieg...but it took Heinz Guderian to bring it into reality.

https://archive.org/details/GuderianHeinzAchtungPanzer1937

They learned their lesson after WW2. Instead of crippling reparations, there was the Marshal Plan. VW, now the worlds largest car maker, owes its post war existence to Ivan Hirst,  an ex British army engineer officer who got their plant up and running in spite of everyone in the industry saying it couldn't be done. To the great regret of the British motor industry I would imagine. 

[Army Guy]

This is something i do not understand, most  Canadian families, that have been here a couple or more generations , have had relatives serve in our military, to take up arms for this nation.....some families paid a steep price with one or more sons, some towns and villages were gutted by the loss of so many of their sons and daughters...i don't think there is a town or village without a monument dedicated to their memory. these monuments are gathering points for the towns. Once a year on , NOV 11, so we may honor them, remember them, because that is the pledge we took, and we retake every year in their name sake....."we shall remember" but lately that is where it stops.....

Canadians have  known the cost of war, and the pain that comes with all of that, and while it is not fresh in their minds they have become numb to our militaries condition today, to the point they are  hostile to it, evident here , and other forums as well..... I'm not sure what to say, except,  we the soldiers, airmen, and sailors are not your enemy....but rather one of you....

 

[ZenOps]

7 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Uhhh...I think you're referring to the US Civil War...and if you think every Reb soldier had a slave at home, you're misinformed. The average Confederate soldier was a cotton share cropper with no shoes and a very old smoothbore musket.

Civil war... Kind of for blacks anyhow.  The first wars were fought to be free from British rule (white tax slavery to the crown)  It all starts somewhere but the reasons are usually embedded in things like "British Superiority" "White Superiority" or "American Greatness".

A gun is still a gun.  The US burned 100% wood for fuel in 1850 so technically the energy grid was no better than caveman days, gives it a point of reference as to conditions back then.