Screening for Canadian Values

[eyeball]

Yes but I think for that to be taken seriously we need to let Canadians knows that too, especially old stock Canadians.

[Argus]

15 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Perhaps. What country has successfully used this model? 

Very few countries have a big immigration system like we do. The US has a lottery, but I don't know how they screen people. I bet they don't let them in without an interview, though. Europe... well, you just walk in the door, obviously.

[Argus]

49 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

That's what I say, too. Let immigrants know that barbaric cultural practices will not be tolerated.  

Except they are.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Except they are.

Well, if we're going to tell immigrants they are not, we have to mean it.  I know I would not be allowed, as an immigrant from England, to go down to a Whitecaps game and beat up a Sounders fan, no matter how culturally appropriate it might seem to me. Same with FGM and killing your kids if they dishonour you.  It really should not be tolerated. 

[dialamah]

47 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 Same with FGM and killing your kids if they dishonour you.  It really should not be tolerated. 

Those things are not tolerated, which is why such things are against the law in Canada.   

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Those things are not tolerated, which is why such things are against the law in Canada.   

Yeah, I know.  That was my point.  It was my way of saying, no they are not.

 

[Argus]

Tonight on CBC's The Passionate Eye we see what a hateful regime Saudi Arabia is, and how it's hateful religion, which is exported throughout the Muslim world, is used to teach children that Christians and Jews must be executed. This is a belief system, accompanied by textbooks for children, which is being spread throughout the Muslim world by the Saudis at a cost of billions of dollars. It seems to me that this is yet another reason why we need to screen newcomers to see just what is in their heads.

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/episodes/saudi-arabia-uncovered

Edited January 15, 2017 by Argus

[eyeball]

It seems to me that Saudi Arabia is amongst  the most rabidly right wing countries on the planet and as I recall the defender of the right above me also defended the multi billion dollar deal Canada made to help outfit the Saudis with the means to be even more right wing.

Excuse me while I go puke.

[dialamah]

12 hours ago, Argus said:

Tonight on CBC's The Passionate Eye we see what a hateful regime Saudi Arabia is, and how it's hateful religion, which is exported throughout the Muslim world, is used to teach children that Christians and Jews must be executed. This is a belief system, accompanied by textbooks for children, which is being spread throughout the Muslim world by the Saudis at a cost of billions of dollars. It seems to me that this is yet another reason why we need to screen newcomers to see just what is in their heads.

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/episodes/saudi-arabia-uncovered

Thank you for posting this video, Argus.  It is making me literally cry.   

Unlike you, this video does not inspire me to take extra precautions designed to limit or eliminate Muslims from Canada.  Instead it inspires me to support green energy around the world, so that we don't use oil and the country of Saudi can go down the tubes.  It inspires me to make eliminating trade with Saudi one of my expectations for some future government.  It  inspires me to want to help the people who want to get away from that regime, such as the jailed activist's wife and his three children, who currently live in Canada.   The people who want to escape Saudi, or any repressive regime, should be helped - not viewed with suspicion.   The evil here is the regime; Islam is one of it's tools, but it could be anything.   The fllmmaker even makes that point, saying that it is not Islam.  

It makes me even angrier with right-wing economic focus, as if safeguarding *money* and *wealth* were the only important activities of government, and that the welfare of it's citizens is of little importance: "Who cares if they live in deplorable conditions, they shouldn't be entitled to MY money" seems to be the right-wing approach to social policy.    "Protect myself and what I own; do not help others" is their rallying cry - and so they turn their backs on people who are suffering.   "Punish the wrongdoers, there is no room or reason for mercy!" they scream, and so bigger and more inhumane prisons can be built.    

If people want to escape countries who have taken their right-wing conservancy to such extremes, then I want to help them, not put roadblocks in their way.  

[SpankyMcFarland]

22 hours ago, dialamah said:

Do you suppose the discrimination the parents endured contributed to the extremism in their youth?    

Do you suppose that if discrimination increases in the States (and Canada) that will contribute to the radicalization of young people?

 

Not as much as one might expect. The people I saw in the Sixties and Seventies suffered serious mistreatment but they and their kids got on with their lives. It's a few of the grandkids who are causing the trouble. 

Radicalization is a result of many forces. What we do is one of them but it matters less than other factors.

[SpankyMcFarland]

22 hours ago, dialamah said:

Do you suppose the discrimination the parents endured contributed to the extremism in their youth?    

Do you suppose that if discrimination increases in the States (and Canada) that will contribute to the radicalization of young people?

 

Not as much as one might expect. The people I saw in the Sixties and Seventies suffered serious mistreatment but they and their kids got on with their lives. It's a few of the grandkids who are causing the trouble. 

Radicalization is a result of many forces. What we do is one of them but it matters less than other factors.

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Not as much as one might expect. The people I saw in the Sixties and Seventies suffered serious mistreatment but they and their kids got on with their lives. It's a few of the grandkids who are causing the trouble. 

Radicalization is a result of many forces. What we do is one of them but it matters less than other factors.

I agree that it's a combination of factors that creates a radical, and I think personality type plays a part as well.   Siblings can be raised similarly, but become very different as adults.   And why do people who have had no religious upbringing at all often become the most devout (extreme?) followers of their chosen faith as adults?    I really do think that it will be important for Western countries to address the reasons behind radicalization in order to combat terrorism effectively, especially that which is home-grown.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Thank you for posting this video, Argus.  It is making me literally cry.   

Unlike you, this video does not inspire me to take extra precautions designed to limit or eliminate Muslims from Canada.

Why? That boy in the video is just one of millions in the Muslim world growing up reading those textbooks. And if you think government textbooks teaching Muslim children to hate are unique to Saudi Arabia (which spread them through the Muslim world), well, they're not. The Palestinian government prints up much the same kind of textbooks, and so do the Iranians and others. And the degree of hatred for other religions doesn't end with the indoctrination of children. State controlled media is filled with it throughout the Muslim world. And all of these are based on their adherents interpretation of Islamic decrees and laws. People raised in such an atmosphere are going to be dangerously susceptible to violent beliefs towards other religions, women and gays.

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

 Instead it inspires me to support green energy around the world, so that we don't use oil and the country of Saudi can go down the tubes.  It inspires me to make eliminating trade with Saudi one of my expectations for some future government.  It  inspires me to want to help the people who want to get away from that regime, such as the jailed activist's wife and his three children, who currently live in Canada.   The people who want to escape Saudi, or any repressive regime, should be helped - not viewed with suspicion.

There was actually no evidence presented in the show that the family of the Shia man jailed had any kind of benign religious beliefs. He was jailed for anti-government activity because of the way the Saudis discriminate against Shia Muslims, not because he was a flaming liberal. In fact, as the documentary pointed out, the religious beliefs of Saudis are virtually identical to the religious beliefs of ISIS.

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

It makes me even angrier with right-wing economic focus, as if safeguarding *money* and *wealth* were the only important activities of government, and that the welfare of it's citizens is of little importance:

The economy of the state is its life blood. You like public health care? You like public welfare and programs for the disadvantaged? Where do you think that money comes from? The poorer the economy the more people who need government assistance and the fewer people contributing money to the budget. And if you keep borowing then sooner or later the percentage of the budget that has to go to paying interest on the debt rises to the point where you have no choice but to drastically slash every manner of social assistance, including pensions, as the southern European countries have discovered. There is no free ride. You can't simply borrow your way into a comfortable living for all.

[dialamah]

@Argus.  We just disagree, that's all.  I think you are heartless and put unimportant material things ahead of people, and you think I'm a fool who would lead our country into ruin while singing "We Are One World".    

[eyeball]

Ask Argus why he defends Canada's sale of weapons systems to the right wing dictatorship in Saudi Arabia.

His explanation should be enough to radicalize just about anyone.

Trudeau's a big defender of the right too.

[Argus]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

@Argus.  We just disagree, that's all.  I think you are heartless and put unimportant material things ahead of people, and you think I'm a fool who would lead our country into ruin while singing "We Are One World".    

How am I heartless materialist for not wanting to see our tolerant secular culture changed by a massive influx of religious extremists whose beliefs are diametrically opposed to secularism or tolerance?

[WestCoastRunner]

25 minutes ago, Argus said:

How am I heartless materialist for not wanting to see our tolerant secular culture changed by a massive influx of religious extremists whose beliefs are diametrically opposed to secularism or tolerance?

You inject such hyperbolic words in your posts but yet they never cease to amaze me. 

'Massive influx' 'religious extremists'

It's  interesting how such differing opinions can result from the same program  

Argus doesn't seem to realize that men, women and children would love to escape these oppressive societies or better still work to change them  Many women-led revolts are happening all over the world in these oppressive societies and Dialamah recognizes this  

You are heartless by your self imposed ignorance  

 

[Argus]

21 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

You inject such hyperbolic words in your posts but yet they never cease to amaze me. 

'Massive influx' 'religious extremists'

It's  interesting how such differing opinions can result from the same program  

Argus doesn't seem to realize that men, women and children would love to escape these oppressive societies or better still work to change them  Many women-led revolts are happening all over the world in these oppressive societies and Dialamah recognizes this  

You are heartless by your self imposed ignorance  

 

And yet... I always have supporting cites and polls and actual, you know, evidence to support everything I say while all you have is hand-wringing emotional whininess about how much you disapprove of everything. Women led revolts? Name one! I dare you. You got nothing. You NEVER have anything but emotional attachment to idiotic beliefs and positions.

[WestCoastRunner]

55 minutes ago, Argus said:

And yet... I always have supporting cites and polls and actual, you know, evidence to support everything I say while all you have is hand-wringing emotional whininess about how much you disapprove of everything. Women led revolts? Name one! I dare you. You got nothing. You NEVER have anything but emotional attachment to idiotic beliefs and positions.

Do you honestly think there are no women in Muslim countries fighting for their rights?  Again, your continued ignorance about Muslim women is appalling.

Here you go:

Muslim women in India are in a Supreme Court fight for equal divorce rights

3 Women of Muslim Backgrounds Receive US Human Rights Prize

Triple talaq issue: Muslim women fighting for their rights is a great moment for democracy

Iranian women call on Western tourists to violate hijab law to fight against oppression

100 Women 2015: Iranian women's fight for freedom

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Do you honestly think there are no women in Muslim countries fighting for their rights?  Again, your continued ignorance about Muslim women is appalling.

That wasn't what you said. You said there were "women-led revolts" and now you're changing that to simply some women fighting for their rights. I'm not sure if your command of the English language is so poor you simply can't tell the difference or if there's something else wrong with your thinking, but in any case you are the last person on this site to complain about other people's ignorance, either in knowledge or in manners.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Argus

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

And yet... I always have supporting cites and polls and actual, you know, evidence to support everything I say while all you have is hand-wringing emotional whininess about how much you disapprove of everything. Women led revolts? Name one! I dare you. You got nothing. You NEVER have anything but emotional attachment to idiotic beliefs and positions.

You use value-laden words to garner an emotional reaction from readers, and spin your 'source' instead of presenting objective facts:

Example, in your opening post in the topic "Immigration of religious fanatics" I've italiced the words you use that either misrepresent the Pew Research or which are there merely to appeal to the reader's emotions:     

". Pew Research surveys have shown enormous support in the source countries where Canada recruits, for brutal and violent punishments for those who offend against the moral values of Islam, including execution for blaspheme, adultery, homosexuality, and apostasy supported by up to 99% of the population."

If one actually goes to the Pew Research cited, one discovers that it shows nothing of the sort.   It does not even ask about execution of apostates, homosexuality, adulterers or blasphemers, so where does that come from?   Certainly not from your source.  I surmise that this claim is a combination of conflating what some Muslim majority countries have enacted as laws, and what some extremists do, and some muddled notion you have of Sharia law.   Yet, given information and evidence that Sharia law is practiced differently around the world, that the extreme form you are so concerned about is among the rarest, and that many Muslim-majority countries do not even have Sharia, you fail to even acknowledge those truths, let alone change your view.

You also failed to mention any of the items in the Pew Research that were positive:  for instance, the vast majority of Muslims around the world and in the Middle East and Africa are worried about and disapprove of terrorism, or that Muslims in the US tend to identify as Democrat, and to be more accepting of homosexuality than Muslims in Muslim-majority countries, proof that living in Western society moderates those views.

When you twist and manipulate facts by using emotion and half-truths to support your agenda, how in the world do you expect to be taken seriously?

 

Edited to add what the Pew Research actually says about the support for Sharia law, and attitudes toward extreme punishments:

Quote

Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by dialamah

[drummindiver]

On 15/01/2017 at 10:58 AM, dialamah said:

Thank you for posting this video, Argus.  It is making me literally cry.   

Unlike you, this video does not inspire me to take extra precautions designed to limit or eliminate Muslims from Canada.  Instead it inspires me to support green energy around the world, so that we don't use oil and the country of Saudi can go down the tubes.  It inspires me to make eliminating trade with Saudi one of my expectations for some future government.  It  inspires me to want to help the people who want to get away from that regime, such as the jailed activist's wife and his three children, who currently live in Canada.   The people who want to escape Saudi, or any repressive regime, should be helped - not viewed with suspicion.   The evil here is the regime; Islam is one of it's tools, but it could be anything.   The fllmmaker even makes that point, saying that it is not Islam.  

It makes me even angrier with right-wing economic focus, as if safeguarding *money* and *wealth* were the only important activities of government, and that the welfare of it's citizens is of little importance: "Who cares if they live in deplorable conditions, they shouldn't be entitled to MY money" seems to be the right-wing approach to social policy.    "Protect myself and what I own; do not help others" is their rallying cry - and so they turn their backs on people who are suffering.   "Punish the wrongdoers, there is no room or reason for mercy!" they scream, and so bigger and more inhumane prisons can be built.    

If people want to escape countries who have taken their right-wing conservancy to such extremes, then I want to help them, not put roadblocks in their way.  

Left wing politicians are buying oil from SA because pipelines are not de rigueur. Just build the bloody pipeline and kick em to the curb. 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

You use value-laden words to garner an emotional reaction from readers,

Your emotional reactions are based  on your own extreme political correctness, not on the words I use. They are a response to arguments you do not want to hear, not what words are chosen to express those arguments. They are an expression of your frustration in not having any coherent rebutal to the arguments, which is why you generally resort to distraction and insults.

 

Quote

Example, in your opening post in the topic "Immigration of religious fanatics" I've italiced the words you use that either misrepresent the Pew Research or which are there merely to appeal to the reader's emotions:     

". Pew Research surveys have shown enormous support in the source countries where Canada recruits, for brutal and violent punishments for those who offend against the moral values of Islam, including execution for blaspheme, adultery, homosexuality, and apostasy supported by up to 99% of the population."

If one actually goes to the Pew Research cited, one discovers that it shows nothing of the sort.   It does not even ask about execution of apostates, homosexuality, adulterers or blasphemers, so where does that come from?

It comes from their overwhelming support of Sharia, which requires the execution of blasphemers, homosexuals and apostates. But I'm sure you know that.

Quote

 I surmise that this claim is a combination of conflating what some Muslim majority countries have enacted as laws, and what some extremists do, and some muddled notion you have of Sharia law.   Yet, given information and evidence that Sharia law is practiced differently around the world, that the extreme form you are so concerned about is among the rarest, and that many Muslim-majority countries do not even have Sharia, you fail to even acknowledge those truths, let alone change your view.

I specifically stated 'in our our major source countries'. It is of little importance to me that support for Sharia is low in Kazakhstan or Albania. Support is at 99% in Afghanistan, 84% in Pakistan, 82% in Bangladesh and 91% in Iraq. PEW was not allowed to survey Iran but they had a national vote on implementing Sharia 3 years ago and 83% supported it. These are the countries Canada draws its middle east immigrants from, esp Pakistan. And don't give me any crap about how some interpretations of Sharia are kind and gentle. They aren't kind and gentle in the countries we're drawing immigrants from and you know that too. But then, your single-minded defense of Islam is always fundamentally dishonest.

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Argus

[dialamah]

57 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Left wing politicians are buying oil from SA because pipelines are not de rigueur. Just build the bloody pipeline and kick em to the curb. 

Left and right wing politicians around the world.   I am not against pipelines per se, but I don't want the taxpayer to be on the hook for clean ups and I don't trust gov or business to be honest about the risk.  

[Charles Anthony]

Folks, 

Avoid personal attacks.