Screening for Canadian Values

dialamah · January 4, 2017

9 hours ago, kimmy said:

This list pretty much highlights the problem with trying to "screen for Canadian values".

My town (and probably yours too) is full of Canadian-born dumb-ass old white people whose views are a lot closer to the Muslims' on some or all of these four issues than to yours and mine.

-k

Can't argue that.

dialamah · January 4, 2017

12 hours ago, Argus said:

Perhaps it is simply your profound lack of imagination which keeps you coming back to the belief that we'll simpl y ask people if they hate

Perhaps its your profound lack of imagination which has prevented you from actually contributing anything to solving the problem you claim is so apparent.

dialamah · January 4, 2017

9 hours ago, kimmy said:

Following last year's terror attacks in Paris, there was a call for values screening in France... the intriguing part is that it came from France's Muslim community.

"The time for action has come. The Muslims of France will play their part," said Anouar Kbibech, the president of the French Council for the Muslim Religion, according to the website. Specifically, they want to screen foreign (meaning Saudi, no doubt) imams who come to France before allowing them to preach.

Interesting that they focus on Imams for screening. I think addressing radicalisation is more important than screening for values so maybe the approach suggested by French Muslims has some validity.

Goddess · January 4, 2017

9 hours ago, kimmy said:

Following last year's terror attacks in Paris, there was a call for values screening in France... the intriguing part is that it came from France's Muslim community.

"The time for action has come. The Muslims of France will play their part," said Anouar Kbibech, the president of the French Council for the Muslim Religion, according to the website. Specifically, they want to screen foreign (meaning Saudi, no doubt) imams who come to France before allowing them to preach.

If French Muslims are willing to point out the problem, why are so many non-Muslims so desperate to deny it?

This is a great idea. Start with the imams who are preaching hate.

I haven't had a chance to research it much, but it seems to me that there are no internal controls in Islam and each person is free to interpret as they like.

But to me, it's almost.....almost...a black/white issue - Does the Koran teach mercy, forgiveness and tolerance? Or does it teach violence, intolerance and hate for Jews and non-Muslims?

Islam itself can't seem to decide.

DogOnPorch · January 4, 2017

The Quran is clear on the subject of infidels...non-believers generally are incredulous as to what is written...but there it is.

Fight them until all religion is for Allah.

kimmy · January 4, 2017

26 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

The Quran is clear on the subject of infidels...non-believers generally are incredulous as to what is written...but there it is.

Fight them until all religion is for Allah.

And the Bible is very clear on gay people, but few Christians in modern countries believe in taking Leviticus 20:13 as a command (some Deep South pastors being notable exceptions.)

People are not defined simply by the words in their religious texts. You have this ongoing theme of saying "Muslims be like this, because it says here in their book." Real life doesn't work like that.

-k

DogOnPorch · January 4, 2017

2 minutes ago, kimmy said:

And the Bible is very clear on gay people, but few Christians in modern countries believe in taking Leviticus 20:13 as a command (some Deep South pastors being notable exceptions.)

People are not defined simply by the words in their religious texts. You have this ongoing theme of saying "Muslims be like this, because it says here in their book." Real life doesn't work like that.

-k

The Bible isn't the very word of God. The Quran is...perfect...unchanging.

Incredulity noted, btw...

Edited January 4, 2017 by DogOnPorch

kimmy · January 4, 2017

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

The Bible isn't the very word of God. The Quran is...perfect...unchanging.

Who cares? Your notion that you can define people by the contents of some books that many of them probably haven't even read remains silly.

-k

dialamah · January 4, 2017

40 minutes ago, Goddess said:

But to me, it's almost.....almost...a black/white issue - Does the Koran teach mercy, forgiveness and tolerance? Or does it teach violence, intolerance and hate for Jews and non-Muslims?

Islam itself can't seem to decide.

This is why I say its the interpretation and not the religion. People have done and do many things and find justification in the Bible or in traditions handed down through the centuries and the same can be said about Islam.

I do like the idea of the leaders within the Islamic faith being reaponsible to ensure the non-violent tenets of Islam are taught, at least in Canada. Would that be within Charter or Constitutional rights?

One might say that they should then be obligated to teach certain social values - acceptance of gays, equality of women, etc. - but then you'd have to extend those requirements to Churches and Temples and I think that might come to close to restricting freedom of religion.

DogOnPorch · January 4, 2017

Just now, kimmy said:

Who cares? Your notion that you can define people by the contents of some books that many of them probably haven't even read remains silly.

-k

Incredulity again noted.

The Quran says what it says because Allah said it.

Your claim that Muslims don't read their own Quran is very debatable. There are schools where one memorizes the Quran and Hadiths word for word.

kimmy · January 4, 2017

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Incredulity again noted.

The Quran says what it says because Allah said it.

Your claim that Muslims don't read their own Quran is very debatable. There are schools where one memorizes the Quran and Hadiths word for word.

Most Christians believe the Bible to be "divinely inspired" and that the Ten Commandments came straight from the Big Guy himself... but I don't see a lot of people getting stoned to death for adultery, working on the Sabbath day, or sporting "graven images".

You seem to be of this notion that guys like Tarek Fatah or Naheed Nenshi are going to open up their Qurans some day and think "holy crap, I'm doing it wrong!" and go on a killing spree or something. That's nonsense.

The Muslims I have known in real-life have been regular guys who dressed up on Friday night, spritzed up with alcohol-based cologne to dance and drink.

-k

DogOnPorch · January 4, 2017

Islam globally must be just like the Muslim men you know in Canada.

Is that what I'm reading?

DogOnPorch · January 4, 2017

5 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Most Christians believe the Bible to be "divinely inspired" and that the Ten Commandments came straight from the Big Guy himself... but I don't see a lot of people getting stoned to death for adultery, working on the Sabbath day, or sporting "graven images".

The only parts of the Bible directly attributed to Jesus are thought of as divine and are usually in red depending on the Bible.

The 10 Commandments are from the OT. Jewish.

Jesus said he didn't come to change God's Laws (the Commandments et al) but to fulfill them. That is: keep your old laws as long as they don't mess with my rules...Go and do thou likewise.

No more stoning the wife...

?Impact · January 4, 2017

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

The only parts of the Bible directly attributed to Jesus are thought of as divine and are usually in red depending on the Bible.

Quite correct, and they include among others Matthew 10:34 where Jesus advocates killing non-believers: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

DogOnPorch · January 4, 2017

7 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Quite correct, and they include among others Matthew 10:34 where Jesus advocates killing non-believers: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

That is also from Revelations, if I recall.

That's not Jesus the man speaking...but rather a vision St John had.

Plus, if one reads the entire context of the verse from Matthew, it becomes clear that "the sword" referred to there is Jesus's gospel...setting families apart.

Edited January 4, 2017 by DogOnPorch

?Impact · January 4, 2017

17 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

That is also from Revelations, if I recall.

That's not Jesus the man speaking...but rather a vision St John had.

I believe it is in Luke as well. If you consider that a vision, then what do you consider the 10 commandments? To me the burning bush seems to be Moses high on substance abuse. He went away, found some of the mineral lapis lazuli and proceeded to chisel it to two roughly 10"x20" rectangles, and then chisel through through them holes to represent lettering with the 10 commandments inscribed on each 'tablet'. We know that he was capable of doing that, because he later destroyed the originals and made new copies.

DogOnPorch · January 4, 2017

Only Jesus's message really matters in the NT: Go and do thou likewise.

That is: WWJD?

eyeball · January 4, 2017

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

The Quran says what it says because Allah said it.

Spoken like a true believer.

Argus · January 4, 2017

14 hours ago, Omni said:

Apparently you didn't bother to read the article I posted which explained to you how our screening system works. What form of bliss are you seeking I wonder?

Yes, I did read it. Did you read my response, which patently explained to you why it was irrelevant to this discussion? Were the words I used too big for you? Were there too many of them all in a row? Perhaps I need to draw a picture.

Argus · January 4, 2017

12 hours ago, kimmy said:

This list pretty much highlights the problem with trying to "screen for Canadian values".

My town (and probably yours too) is full of Canadian-born dumb-ass old white people whose views are a lot closer to the Muslims' on some or all of these four issues than to yours and mine.

I doubt that's true, Kimmy. Are there a lot of Canadian born dumb-ass old white people who believe gays should be executed? Are there a lot of them who see a woman's bare shoulders and believe she's a prostitute whose body can be used by any man who wants it? Comparing Canadian born social conservatives to the kind of social conservatism in the Muslim world simply makes no sense.

Omni · January 4, 2017

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Yes, I did read it. Did you read my response, which patently explained to you why it was irrelevant to this discussion? Were the words I used too big for you? Were there too many of them all in a row? Perhaps I need to draw a picture.

Your response was nothing more than a feeble attempt to refute what the article explained because you wish to hold onto your faulty views. Next time I'll see if I can find one with more pictures for you.

Argus · January 4, 2017

1 minute ago, Omni said:

Your response was nothing more than a feeble attempt to refute what the article explained because you wish to hold onto your faulty views. Next time I'll see if I can find one with more pictures for you.

Okay. Here's a simple question. You can either answer truthfully, or weasel out (as I'm fairly sure you will).

Do we currently screen potential immigrants for their social values and views? Yes or no. No screwing around.

Argus · January 4, 2017

del

Edited January 4, 2017 by Argus

Omni · January 4, 2017

13 minutes ago, Argus said:

Okay. Here's a simple question. You can either answer truthfully, or weasel out (as I'm fairly sure you will).

Do we currently screen potential immigrants for their social values and views? Yes or no. No screwing around.

We do under The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. We don't use the Kellie Leitch approach because we know it's a waste of time as it would reveal nothing.

dialamah · January 4, 2017

35 minutes ago, Argus said:

I doubt that's true, Kimmy. Are there a lot of Canadian born dumb-ass old white people who believe gays should be executed? Are there a lot of them who see a woman's bare shoulders and believe she's a prostitute whose body can be used by any man who wants it? Comparing Canadian born social conservatives to the kind of social conservatism in the Muslim world simply makes no sense.

You'd be surprised what people think; there are lots of people who think gays need to be beaten/shunned/jailed and otherwise shown the error of their ways. There are plenty of people who determine if a woman is "quality" or "slutty" based entirely on how much skin she shows.

What's important is that they don't act on their private thoughts in such a way that the people they disapprove of are injured.