Accommodating male/female segregation for Muslims?

[Guest]

I would also remind you that the "Muslim World," whatever the hell that means, has elected several women leaders in their states. Kim Campbell got her post by default and the United States may just finally have their first female president this year. If Muslims had such a twisted view of women as you pretend they all must have, would they really be electing them as presidents and prime ministers?

Would you rather be a woman in America or Saudi Arabia? Canada or Iran.? I don't disagree that it is not as cut and dried as it might seem, when there are Benazir Bhuttos to put up as examples, but to imply that a woman is better off in the "Muslim world" than they are in the "Western world" is stretching credulity a bit.

[dialamah]

The purpose here is not to attack any religion or make comparison which is worse but rather certain behaviors which I listed (disregards for equality and rights of women, disrespect for women and other religions, suppression of women"s and human rights, and the list goes on) whose believers should be barred from entering Canada because as I said we don't wish a tense situation that now exists in Europe. Europe can be a lesson learned.

I think it would be more useful to show those people a better way. However, if there was a way of accurately identifying those who would be violent in pursuit of their beliefs, I would think that a reasonable criteria to deny entry into Canada. Of course, I'd also like to see those who were born in Canada who had a tendency to violence, without any addiction issues, adequately screened for and exported somewhere. Probably run afoul of all kinds of human rights things, though.

[?Impact]

Did you consider segregation in the old US south to be racist? I'm betting the answer to that question is "Yes".

Yes, not all segregation is the same. Segregating based on gender and age is very common practice in our modern world. Segregating based on race in the old US south was a problem because the races were treated differently. I have the same problem on segregation based on gender today where there is different treatment. If you separate the girls from the boys, and give the boys an education and disallow girls from receiving an education then that is a big problem. That is not however the situation that is being discussed.

[?Impact]

Yeah segregate swimming as a start and as they increase in number and power (votes) continue on segregating schools too and then why not segregate buses as well and then why not extend segregation to streets (like a lady from Kuwait was telling me) and then.............. No Thank you. Not in my Canada.

Your Canada already has segregated schools. Why are you not making comments about them and about the Catholic church which support many of them?

[CITIZEN_2015]

there are Benazir Bhuttos to put up as examples,

Yes indeed as example because they made an example of her by assassinating her for other women.................

Edited August 15, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

Your Canada already has segregated schools. Why are you not making comments about them and about the Catholic church which support many of them?

I have responded to you already and my response was two wrongs don't make it right. And I have also said religion out of schools. Do you wish me to say they are equally idiots? So here we are and I said it. Al least they don't segregate buses, parks and streets or do they?

[cybercoma]

Would you rather be a woman in America or Saudi Arabia? Canada or Iran.? I don't disagree that it is not as cut and dried as it might seem, when there are Benazir Bhuttos to put up as examples, but to imply that a woman is better off in the "Muslim world" than they are in the "Western world" is stretching credulity a bit.

What is the "Muslim World" and who said "better off"? Argus was talking scripture. I provided scripture. You're talking geopolitical. Edited August 15, 2016 by cybercoma

[Guest]

What is the "Muslim World" and who said "better off"? Argus was talking scripture. I provided scripture. You're talking geopolitical.

You put Muslim world in quotes so I responded with Western world in quotes. For equivalency. And you did imply better off, by talking about elected officials in certain areas. That's geopolitical, isn't it?

I didn't see any scripture.

[cybercoma]

When Islam itself is considered misogyny, it's hard to take that seriously when Muslims have elected women. I don't see these same people saying Christianity is misogyny, despite the Bible also calling for women to be stoned and to be slaves to their husbands. So-called Christian nations haven't even elected women leaders.

[Guest]

When Islam itself is considered misogyny, it's hard to take that seriously when Muslims have elected women. I don't see these same people saying Christianity is misogyny, despite the Bible also calling for women to be stoned and to be slaves to their husbands. So-called Christian nations haven't even elected women leaders.

Well, I would ask again where you would prefer to live if you were female? If you truly believe what you say, it shouldn't matter, one place or the other. I freely admit it would matter greatly to me.

[?Impact]

Well, I would ask again where you would prefer to live if you were female?

Same place I would prefer to live as a male.

[Guest]

Same place I would prefer to live as a male.

Yeah, me too. But that's because the beer's better. I daresay a female has different criteria.

[Hal 9000]

When Islam itself is considered misogyny, it's hard to take that seriously when Muslims have elected women. I don't see these same people saying Christianity is misogyny, despite the Bible also calling for women to be stoned and to be slaves to their husbands. So-called Christian nations haven't even elected women leaders.

So, is your position that women in Islamic countries are better off than western countries?

[dialamah]

So, is your position that women in Islamic countries are better off than western countries?

Depends on your criteria. My sister quite likes her life in Egypt, and would prefer to remain there than return to Canada, even as she acknowledges the difficulties. Another woman I know spent several years in Iran, and is now torn between remaining in Canada near her mother, or returning to Iran, which she loves. Both of these women have experienced the freedom Canadian/Western women enjoy, and are willing to trade that for whatever it is they enjoy about the Middle East. They are not the only women I know who have made that choice, they are just the two I am most familiar with. You may not think they are better off, but they clearly disagree.

[betsy]

I didn't know we were talking about the Catholic and other Christian churches trying to kill the indian in the child.

You seem to be the personification of Rip. Van Winkling it, are we?

Wakey-wakey......you're in the 21st century.

Just as I suspected....... a lot of these folks are somnambulists.

Edited August 16, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

Depends on your criteria. My sister quite likes her life in Egypt, and would prefer to remain there than return to Canada, even as she acknowledges the difficulties. Another woman I know spent several years in Iran, and is now torn between remaining in Canada near her mother, or returning to Iran, which she loves. Both of these women have experienced the freedom Canadian/Western women enjoy, and are willing to trade that for whatever it is they enjoy about the Middle East. They are not the only women I know who have made that choice, they are just the two I am most familiar with. You may not think they are better off, but they clearly disagree.

That's not answering the question. Hal asked:

So, is your position that women in Islamic countries are better off than western countries?

Islamic women were raised and deeply indoctrinated into that mind frame - when someone is resigned to her fate, she can make the best of any situation she might find herself in. Some, genuinely, believe what they've been taught from childhood.

Others, deeply religious. When you're religious enough to want to do what you believe is pleasing to your God.....it's not hard to roll with the punches.

Some folks are just so used to a situation that they find themselves at a lost when they deviate from it. A lot of folks used to a Communist regime had found they couldn't hack it in a democratic society, with so much freedom....

I assume you're living in the West? Your opinion is what is being sought.

Edited August 16, 2016 by betsy

[cybercoma]

So, is your position that women in Islamic countries are better off than western countries?

Jesus Christ. What is wrong with you? Why does everything have to be boiled down into such simplistic us vs them terms for you to understand? Stop looking at everything as a dichotomy. Life is complicated. Social systems are complicated and chaotic. Things don't fit nicely into the black and white terms that you need to understand things.

[cybercoma]

That's not answering the question. Hal asked:

So, is your position that women in Islamic countries are better off than western countries?

Islamic women were raised and deeply indoctrinated into that mind frame

You're doing what's called "poisoning the well."

The acceptable answers to you are either 1) they're better off in the West, or 2) the ones who say they prefer their home countries are brainwashed.

You've established illogical terms of debate. Consequently, no discussion with you can be fruitful because you've predetermined that there can be no argument from another viewpoint.

[cybercoma]

Depends on your criteria. My sister quite likes her life in Egypt, and would prefer to remain there than return to Canada, even as she acknowledges the difficulties. Another woman I know spent several years in Iran, and is now torn between remaining in Canada near her mother, or returning to Iran, which she loves. Both of these women have experienced the freedom Canadian/Western women enjoy, and are willing to trade that for whatever it is they enjoy about the Middle East. They are not the only women I know who have made that choice, they are just the two I am most familiar with. You may not think they are better off, but they clearly disagree.

I have a female colleague from Iran who's looking forward to returning home. Why, you might ask? Because of our healthcare system. One of the largest sources of Canadian pride disappoints her. She doesn't understand why people need to wait to see a doctor. In Tehran, she said she can just show up to a doctor's office and see him right away. If she doesn't like his diagnosis or wants a second opinion, she can drive up the street to another.

[dialamah]

That's not answering the question. Hal asked:

So, is your position that women in Islamic countries are better off than western countries?

The only area where I think people in third world countries (including Muslim countries) would be most likely better off in Western countries, especially Canada, is where health care is concerned, at least for the poorer people. Beyond that, I cannot assume that anything we can offer them here is worth the trade-off of what they enjoy in their own country. For instance, in Egypt, University is free. Two of the young women in my sister's adopted family have gone through university, even though their families are not wealthy and the same is expected for the younger kids. Can kids in Canada expect the same?

Islamic women were raised and deeply indoctrinated into that mind frame - when someone is resigned to her fate, she can make the best of any situation she might find herself in. Some, genuinely, believe what they've been taught from childhood.

Some folks are just so used to a situation that they find themselves at a lost when they deviate from it. A lot of folks used to a Communist regime had found they couldn't hack it in a democratic society, with so much freedom....

Both of the women I talked about were born/raised in Canada. While in Canada, both look, act and speak as Canadians and one even dresses in what Canadian Christians would consider an 'immodest' style. While in their preferred Muslim countries, both women adjust their dress to fit the social expectations of their adopted country, albeit on the more Westernized side. Both recognize the patriarchy of their countries, but neither feels it is so much of an impediment to living their life as they see fit. They love those countries for whatever it is that is important to them.

Certainly there are women (and men) who are, as you say, indoctrinated and resigned to their fate. However, the same is true of women in Canada who have been raised in the more fundamentalist and evangelical Christian churches. I have a friend who has recently escaped the shackles of her Christian church; she talks a lot about how the gender roles of women was continually reinforced - subject to husband, take care of kids/house, present a certain 'image' so that the Christian faith would not come into disrepute. Deviation from those roles resulted in censure. She may not have worn a headscarf and long dresses, but she was under similar constraints and expectations as are women in Muslim countries.

[dialamah]

I have a female colleague from Iran who's looking forward to returning home. Why, you might ask? Because of our healthcare system. One of the largest sources of Canadian pride disappoints her. She doesn't understand why people need to wait to see a doctor. In Tehran, she said she can just show up to a doctor's office and see him right away. If she doesn't like his diagnosis or wants a second opinion, she can drive up the street to another.

And there goes an assumption I had that our healthcare system must be better, by default. I don't think there is free healthcare in Egypt, so that is one area where I think my sister might be better off in Canada, especially as she gets older since the family she married into isn't wealthy.

[betsy]

The only area where I think people in third world countries (including Muslim countries) would be most likely better off in Western countries, especially Canada, is where health care is concerned, at least for the poorer people. Beyond that, I cannot assume that anything we can offer them here is worth the trade-off of what they enjoy in their own country. For instance, in Egypt, University is free. Two of the young women in my sister's adopted family have gone through university, even though their families are not wealthy and the same is expected for the younger kids. Can kids in Canada expect the same?

Both of the women I talked about were born/raised in Canada. While in Canada, both look, act and speak as Canadians and one even dresses in what Canadian Christians would consider an 'immodest' style. While in their preferred Muslim countries, both women adjust their dress to fit the social expectations of their adopted country, albeit on the more Westernized side. Both recognize the patriarchy of their countries, but neither feels it is so much of an impediment to living their life as they see fit. They love those countries for whatever it is that is important to them.

Certainly there are women (and men) who are, as you say, indoctrinated and resigned to their fate. However, the same is true of women in Canada who have been raised in the more fundamentalist and evangelical Christian churches. I have a friend who has recently escaped the shackles of her Christian church; she talks a lot about how the gender roles of women was continually reinforced - subject to husband, take care of kids/house, present a certain 'image' so that the Christian faith would not come into disrepute. Deviation from those roles resulted in censure. She may not have worn a headscarf and long dresses, but she was under similar constraints and expectations as are women in Muslim countries.

But we're not talking about the Christian faith. Your comparison is not appropriate since you know very well the difference in the treatment of women between Islam and Christianity. Like this one:

Adulterous women are stoned or lashed according to Islam. Adulterous women are forgiven (if they'd ask forgiveness) according to Christianity.

In Islam, women are segregated because they're temptress that lead man to sin. But Christianity teaches that man should love his wife as Christ love the Church.

Edited August 16, 2016 by betsy

[cybercoma]

Adulterous women are stoned or lashed according to Islam. Adulterous women are forgiven (if they'd ask forgiveness) according to Christianity.

Not if you actually follow the Bible.

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife ... both the adulterer and adulteress are to be put to death."

And there's more. Deuteronomy 22 says if a man finds out that his wife is not a virgin on their wedding night, the men of the village must stone her to death. That chapter gets even crazier in that it says a woman should be stoned to death if she's raped in the city and doesn't scream loud enough for people to hear.

Not a lot of forgiveness there.

[dialamah]

But we're not talking about the Christian fate. Your comparison is not appropriate since you know very well the difference in the treatment of women between Islam and Christianity. Like this one:

Adulterous women are stoned or lashed according to Islam. Adulterous women are forgiven (if they'd ask forgiveness) according to Christianity.

The punishment of stoning isn't found in the Qu'ran, but lashing is. Stoning is a punishment found in the bible and practiced by Jews for a very long time; the current Islamic practice closely follows the old Jewish one.

So why do some Muslims believe it's ok to stone people, but most Christians don't? Because people tend to follow what the *leaders* of their religions teach, rather than what is in the actual texts they claim to follow. Muslims use the Hadiths to 'interpret' the Qu'ran, and that's where the support for stoning is. Christians have had a number of leaders who have interpreted the bible in various ways, but most will point to Jesus as being the one who eliminated stoning (among other things) - although Christians will still use it to kill people, as did John Thomas in 2011, when he killed Murray Seidman for making advances toward him.

In Islam, women are segregated because they're temptress that lead man to sin. But Christianity teaches that man should love his wife as Christ love the Church.

Islam also teaches that a man should love and care for his wife and a father should love and care for his daughter; part of that love and care is to protect her from other men. I agree that the segregation they employ is overkill, but the motivation is not a lot different from a Christian man who insists that his wife/daughter dress modestly and avoid certain activities and places so that they will not be seen as 'easy' or 'loose' or 'asking for it'.

In any case, the point is that regardless of what the religious texts say, people reinterpret it suit themselves. Sometimes the changes result in more humane actions such as eliminating stoning, and sometimes not - such as condoning stoning. You choose to believe the worst of Islam and you assume that women in Islam experience lives of unmitigated misery, and you are wrong. It is certainly more proscribed than in Western countries, and women do chafe under it's limits - but so did Christian women chafe under similar limitations not so long ago. Merely 60 years ago, for example, my mother could not get birth control without my father's permission. In the Middle East, things are changing - slowly - for the better, if female autonomy is the criteria. Do not let your assumptions blind you to that fact, or the fact that it wasn't so long ago that much of Christianity looked much like Islam does today.

Edited August 16, 2016 by dialamah

[Argus]

So the handful of times a woman has been elected, in mostly none Arab nations, cancels out the idea that men and women shouldn't be swimming together?

Progressives and Islam are hand in hand. I think that nothing matters to progressives any more so much as ensuring the spread of Islam. Gay rights, womens rights, and all the other normal progressive ideological goals are secondary to protecting Islam now.

As I posted earlier, segregation of males and females is a fundamental part of Islamic teaching. And you can easily judge the impact of Islamic teaching by looking at the dozens of Muslim countries around the world and how brutally misogynistic they ALL are.