America under President Trump

[Argus]

So Trump decided to stop government subsidies to insurance companies for no particular reason other than it's a way to damage "obamacare", which he hates because it has Obama's name on it (even though it really doesn't). There's no sense or logic to cutting the subsidies, even presuming it's legal to do so. I notice, btw, that Republicans aren't whining about presidential executive orders any more, but I digress.

The move will probably boot about a million poor people off the roles, but at least it will save money, right? Well, no. First, those people who can't get health insurance will just get sicker and sicker until they have to turn up at state and city hospitals where they can get treated for free - at enormous cost, by then. Second, the move will certainly raise insurance rates. The higher the insurance rates rise, the higher the subsidy the US government will pay to individuals to help them buy insurance. In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office this will probably result in an additional $200 BILLION in spending over the next decade. Nice move, genius.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-13/trump-s-latest-obamacare-killer-will-cost-uncle-sam-194-billion

[OftenWrong]

Just now, Argus said:

You can't say you don't remotely feel that way when you're suggesting Trump's talk about yanking a network license because they're mean to him might be justified.

To be clear, I meant: Spreading lies which foment national discord can become a serious problem leading to security issues. If communists were to flood the media with disinformation, and universities/ students buy into it wholesale and cause riots, it should be stopped. This form of subversion using media is commonly employed by superpowers and is nothing new. It's not ridiculous to believe that enemies of the US would use Trump, Clinton, anybody they deem useful to create discord and ultimately bring harm to the USA.

[Argus]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

To be clear, I meant: Spreading lies which foment national discord can become a serious problem leading to security issues. If communists were to flood the media with disinformation, and universities/ students buy into it wholesale and cause riots, it should be stopped. This form of subversion using media is commonly employed by superpowers and is nothing new. It's not ridiculous to believe that enemies of the US would use Trump, Clinton, anybody they deem useful to create discord and ultimately bring harm to the USA.

But organizations like NBC never knowingly tell lies. That doesn't mean they can't be used by third parties with agendas, but they do their best to avoid outright lies. Even FOX, which is the most dishonest national media organization in the US, doesn't like to tell outright lies. They simply slant the news and only tell only part of the facts to give the impression they want to give, then leave it to their chosen interview subjects to tell the lies.

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

So Trump decided to stop government subsidies to insurance companies for no particular reason other than it's a way to damage "obamacare", which he hates because it has Obama's name on it (even though it really doesn't). There's no sense or logic to cutting the subsidies, even presuming it's legal to do so. I notice, btw, that Republicans aren't whining about presidential executive orders any more, but I digress.

I'm not up on all the details but it's fact that both parties agree Obamacare or whatever is in serious jeopardy and needs to be reformed. Trump is not able to get agreement on the reforms for a number of reasons. Trump threatened to cancel the whole deal as he tends to use threats and bluster. What we have seen so far is his threats get a rise out of people, but seem to be mainly bluster as he then settles on a solution not as extreme as was first implied. Nothing new in that technique in the political world either. A wise man should be aware, and not fall for it.

[OftenWrong]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

But organizations like NBC never knowingly tell lies. That doesn't mean they can't be used by third parties with agendas, but they do their best to avoid outright lies. Even FOX, which is the most dishonest national media organization in the US, doesn't like to tell outright lies. They simply slant the news and only tell only part of the facts to give the impression they want to give, then leave it to their chosen interview subjects to tell the lies.

Note that I never committed to the idea that they knowingly do so. They might, or might not. How would I know. We are easily duped especially in a climate of extreme hysteria, especially if you don't know history or the whole story, plus the urge to compete with other media outlets to be the first to break important news, the competition, the desire to make profit through increased viewership, these are their primary motivators. Responsible journalism is becoming a thing of the past.

Trumps statement on this is more bluster, but what I said is I understand the problem. 

[Michael Hardner]

40 minutes ago, Argus said:

But organizations like NBC never knowingly tell lies. That doesn't mean they can't be used by third parties with agendas, but they do their best to avoid outright lies. Even FOX, which is the most dishonest national media organization in the US, doesn't like to tell outright lies. They simply slant the news and only tell only part of the facts to give the impression they want to give, then leave it to their chosen interview subjects to tell the lies.

This is true.  They also can only ignore bad news about their boy so much, as it starts to impact their image as an actual news organization.  You can usually gage how much of a problem something is for Trump by how Fox covers it.  If it's high on the front page on the same day it happens then it's bad.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Note that I never committed to the idea that they knowingly do so. They might, or might not. How would I know. We are easily duped especially in a climate of extreme hysteria, especially if you don't know history or the whole story, plus the urge to compete with other media outlets to be the first to break important news, the competition, the desire to make profit through increased viewership, these are their primary motivators. Responsible journalism is becoming a thing of the past.

Trumps statement on this is more bluster, but what I said is I understand the problem. 

You seemed pretty committed to the idea that the NBC is a communist organization when I asked if you actually thought that.

On 10/12/2017 at 5:58 PM, OftenWrong said:

Yes. Is that too much a stretch? It's not ridiculous. Espionage, intrigue, manipulation are rampant especially between the superpowers. And communism did not die, it's just having a nap.

 

As for your question how would you know or not know? Try pausing for a moment or two to consider the probability of what you're suggesting before being so quick to embrace a possibility.  Responsible readership is what's becoming a thing of the past.

 

[OftenWrong]

18 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You seemed pretty committed to the idea that the NBC is a communist organization when I asked if you actually thought that.

 

As for your question how would you know or not know? Try pausing for a moment or two to consider the probability of what you're suggesting before being so quick to embrace a possibility.  Responsible readership is what's becoming a thing of the past.

 

Try arguing the points up for discussion. I can't say much more since all you're doing here is talking about me.

[eyeball]

11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Try arguing the points up for discussion. I can't say much more since all you're doing here is talking about me.

No, I'm talking about what you said.

Try paying attention.

[OftenWrong]

Just now, eyeball said:

No, I'm talking about what you said.

Try paying attention.

Try reading further. I see no point in reiterating what I said to Argus verbatim just because you don't like it.

[eyeball]

Ok have it your way, you really do think the NBC is a communist organization.

[Omni]

Well we have Trump in Puerto Rico tossing out rolls of paper towels. ( he finally found his level of competency) and then Bannon speaking at the Values Voters Summit. The Dems must be enjoying watching the GOP imploding.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Omni said:

The Dems must be enjoying watching the GOP imploding.

I don't think anybody who cares would 'enjoy' this.  At times like these, you learn who has character and who doesn't.  There are members of the GOP who are keeping us away from 'chaos' as Senator Corker called it.

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Ok have it your way, you really do think the NBC is a communist organization.

I said it's possible that disinformation is purposely being leaked through media outlets, and I would not limit that to just NBC. I gave examples earlier as to how and why this happens. That's the way it goes in the game of global domination, has been that way for centuries. That's how empires are built. I'm sure you have been around long enough to know that we are continually being fed lies, both from our own leaders and others, and you have said so yourself. We got it coming for the things we've done, we deserve more punishment, you hate Canada/ America/ the west. etc

[OftenWrong]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think anybody who cares would 'enjoy' this.  At times like these, you learn who has character and who doesn't.  There are members of the GOP who are keeping us away from 'chaos' as Senator Corker called it.

Enjoy what exactly? The perception of a serious problem is divided sharply along partisan lines. That kind of alienation is the problem we should not be enjoying. As to president Trump, seems he is doing quite well in his country.

5 poll numbers that show Republicans are turning against the GOP, but not Trump

September 28, 2017
The latest CNN poll showed his approval rating among Republicans at a robust 85% -- with six in 10 Republicans saying they "strongly" approve of his job performance so far.

[Omni]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think anybody who cares would 'enjoy' this.  At times like these, you learn who has character and who doesn't.  There are members of the GOP who are keeping us away from 'chaos' as Senator Corker called it.

And good for Corker. But I believe the chaos within the GOP comes from a combination of arrogance and ignorance, and currently is coming from the top down. The GOP supports an idiot who can't keep his policy straight from one day to the next, and maybe I'm being a little hard core here, but I say they are making their bed, they can god damn well lie in it. I care but there is nothing I can do about it.

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, Omni said:

1. And good for Corker. But I believe the chaos within the GOP comes from a combination of arrogance and ignorance, and currently is coming from the top down.

2. The GOP supports an idiot who can't keep his policy straight from one day to the next, and maybe I'm being a little hard core here, but I say they are making their bed, they can god damn well lie in it.

3. I care but there is nothing I can do about it.

1. You're not paying attention.  The GOP is going through an internal fight the likes of which we haven't seen.  It's not 'top down'.

2. They had to support their party's candidate: that's how it works.  You can argue that they're looking after their own interests more than the party's but they're in a tough position and more Senators are standing up every day.

3. Helplessness.

[Omni]

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Enjoy what exactly? The perception of a serious problem is divided sharply along partisan lines. That kind of alienation is the problem we should not be enjoying. As to president Trump, seems he is doing quite well in his country.

5 poll numbers that show Republicans are turning against the GOP, but not Trump

September 28, 2017
The latest CNN poll showed his approval rating among Republicans at a robust 85% -- with six in 10 Republicans saying they "strongly" approve of his job performance so far.

Your article seems to simply underscore just how far the GOP have their head up their ass. The things they seem to be so upset about so far as to the performance of the party are issues that is supporting. Here's one item that indicates one of the snags that party has: when the knuckleheads in the south were  interviewed to discuss the affordable Care Act, they were happy with it. But when they were told it was also known as "Obamacare", "Oh hell that's no good". Politics reared it's ugly head and they're still fighting over it.  

[eyeball]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

I said it's possible that disinformation is purposely being leaked through media outlets, and I would not limit that to just NBC.

You appeared to be saying that disinformation is being leaked by the NBC because its communist not because it's simply being manipulated by communists.  That's a pretty big difference.

Quote

I gave examples earlier as to how and why this happens. That's the way it goes in the game of global domination, has been that way for centuries. That's how empires are built. I'm sure you have been around long enough to know that we are continually being fed lies, both from our own leaders and others, and you have said so yourself. We got it coming for the things we've done, we deserve more punishment, you hate Canada/ America/ the west. etc

What I do know for sure is that trying to dominate the globe through espionage, intrigue and manipulation is a dangerous pointless exercise that always fails and that we deserve what we get for attempting it anyway.

That said I get the very clear sense that you're not quite willing to give up on the attempt yet because of your willingness to be duped and misled, like I said, its responsible readership that's really lacking in the world.

[Omni]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. You're not paying attention.  The GOP is going through an internal fight the likes of which we haven't seen.  It's not 'top down'.

2. They had to support their party's candidate: that's how it works.  You can argue that they're looking after their own interests more than the party's but they're in a tough position and more Senators are standing up every day.

3. Helplessness.

1. The GOP may be going through an internal fight, but look who is at the top.

2. Yes if I was a card carrying member of the party I would appreciate people such as Corker were standing up to try to sway things back toward reason.

3. I'm a Canadian so I don't really give a shit other than when I tune in CNN.

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You appeared to be saying that disinformation is being leaked by the NBC because its communist not because it's simply being manipulated by communists.  That's a pretty big difference.

What I do know for sure is that trying to dominate the globe through espionage, intrigue and manipulation is a dangerous pointless exercise that always fails and that we deserve what we get for attempting it anyway.

That said I get the very clear sense that you're not quite willing to give up on the attempt yet because of your willingness to be duped and misled, like I said, its responsible readership that's really lacking in the world.

I am neither willing nor unwilling to give up on whatever you're saying. It makes no difference either way if I did. There is no one else to turn to, no saviour will arise from this world to make things right. This game shall continue, regardless how much you or I disagree with it in principle. Just because I understand the depth of corruption that is inherently part of mankind does not mean I approve it.

Suggest you keep working on the 'responsibility for reading' part a bit more at your end fella, since you enjoy extrapolating whatever someone says to the point of absurdity. That is not good debate however.

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Omni said:

1. The GOP may be going through an internal fight, but look who is at the top.

2. Yes if I was a card carrying member of the party I would appreciate people such as Corker were standing up to try to sway things back toward reason.

3. I'm a Canadian so I don't really give a shit other than when I tune in CNN.

1. I think we're saying the same thing.  I think this is a brand new problem, though, born out of the Frankenstein populist monster they have nurtured for 40 years.

2. Any American, any Canadian should appreciate him.

3. You really should care more, even if it's just for selfish reasons.

[Omni]

16 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I think we're saying the same thing.  I think this is a brand new problem, though, born out of the Frankenstein populist monster they have nurtured for 40 years.

2. Any American, any Canadian should appreciate him.

3. You really should care more, even if it's just for selfish reasons.

3. I do care. Hey some of my best friends are American. And I do live close to the border and have crossed it a lot both for business and pleasure. Especially in January.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Omni said:

3. I do care. Hey some of my best friends are American. And I do live close to the border and have crossed it a lot both for business and pleasure. Especially in January.

 

I live close to the border too, but never have to cross it.

There is just no reason to do so.

Maybe Trump will go to Canada while he is president...if he feels like it.

 

[Omni]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I live close to the border too, but never have to cross it.

There is just no reason to do so.

Maybe Trump will go to Canada while he is president...if he feels like it.

 

American's are noted for their lack of travel knowledge. And you would do well to keep Donald at home. He seems to embarrass himself and the country wherever he goes. The wild handshakes for instance.