America under President Trump

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Omni said:

My point was he is less scary than Trump, and he wouldn't have the Russian influence dark cloud above him..

 

Romney was not a 2016 candidate.  He lost in 2012.....throwing shade on Russia didn't help him.

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

Rick Perry former Texas gov. said during the campaign he would scrap the energy department. Now Trump has just picked him to head it up. The hits just keep on comin'.

If we ignore the stupidity of the remark, and the even further stupidity of Rick Perry who couldn't remember the 3 departments he wanted to scrap during the primary debate, there is some valid logic in putting someone in charge of a department they want to eliminate because that will be their agenda. You don't suddenly turn off the taps, you need to wind thing down.

[Omni]

4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

If we ignore the stupidity of the remark, and the even further stupidity of Rick Perry who couldn't remember the 3 departments he wanted to scrap during the primary debate, there is some valid logic in putting someone in charge of a department they want to eliminate because that will be their agenda. You don't suddenly turn off the taps, you need to wind thing down.

Yes it seems like the only conclusion one could come to. I'm sure Trump can find him another job after he eliminates his initial posting.

[Omni]

Some ideas about Trump.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/trump-russia-intelligence-need-to-know-214520

[sharkman]

Look, that "article" reads like a grand conspiracy.  This nonsense about Russia is getting tedious.  We knew BEFORE the election that they had been hacking, and the left wasn't in an uproar over it.  You were relatively fine with it until you lost, which is  beyond all hypocrisy.  You can't now have it both ways.  

And the disgusting revelations about what the MSM was doing to get Hillary the win is all now of course, ignored.  It never happened, silly!  Look over there at those nasty Russians and forget about the MSM trying to interfere in the election, because they beat us at our own game, dammit!

Yes, Russia has been doing stunts like this for several years.  What I can't understand is how the left can be so dense.  They are only now surprised, like, "what, christmas is in december this year?"  The CIA and others had many revelations on Russia throughout Obama's terms AND HE DID NOTHING ABOUT IT.    He did, however, enjoy jerking down the CIA's pants in Benghazi, and that about sums up his relationship(and therefore his minions in the MSM and on the left) with the CIA.  So now all of a sudden the left and the MSM are breathlessly reporting what the CIA are saying like they don't hate the dirty little water boarders and want their organization to die.  

Nothing make the left look worse than their own actions. Seriously.

Edited December 14, 2016 by sharkman

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

Some ideas about Trump.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/trump-russia-intelligence-need-to-know-214520

It's just so hard to know who to believe.

Quote

A New York Times report on Monday alluding to “overwhelming circumstantial evidence” leading the CIA to believe that Russian President Vladimir Putin “deployed computer hackers with the goal of tipping the election to Donald J. Trump” is, sadly, evidence-free. This is no surprise, because harder evidence of a technical nature points to an inside leak, not hacking – by Russians or anyone else.

Source

 

One thing I do know is that I'm a little gobsmacked that no one has thought to mention that the US hacks its way into every single country it can get it's own hackers into every day. I mean is it just me or has this oh-so-shocking revelation not so much as caused a single "ahem" or "point of order" of any sort anywhere?

Its truly unbelievable just how narcissistic America and Americans have become.

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, sharkman said:

We knew BEFORE the election that they had been hacking, and the left wasn't in an uproar over it.  

What left? You mean the Democrats? 

 

[Omni]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's just so hard to know who to believe.

 

One thing I do know is that I'm a little gobsmacked that no one has thought to mention that the US hacks its way into every single country it can get it's own hackers into every day. I mean is it just me or has this oh-so-shocking revelation not so much as caused a single "ahem" or "point of order" of any sort anywhere?

Its truly unbelievable just how narcissistic America and Americans have become.

Very true. I guess it's that the narcissism gets a bit tweaked when they get a bit of their own back. Although I don't blame them for attempting to determine how effective the Russian hacking was. And of course there will be the ongoing logistics of how to shield themselves going forward.

[?Impact]

19 minutes ago, sharkman said:

 We knew BEFORE the election that they had been hacking, and the left wasn't in an uproar over it.

Were were you before the election, there was all kinds of uproar. Why do the alt right have to rewrite history to make a point?

[eyeball]

Just now, ?Impact said:

Why do the alt right have to rewrite history to make a point?

My guess is that history, like everything else under the sun, has a librul bias.

[Omni]

20 minutes ago, sharkman said:

Look, that "article" reads like a grand conspiracy.  This nonsense about Russia is getting tedious.  We knew BEFORE the election that they had been hacking, and the left wasn't in an uproar over it.  You were relatively fine with it until you lost, which is  beyond all hypocrisy.  You can't now have it both ways.  

And the disgusting revelations about what the MSM was doing to get Hillary the win is all now of course, ignored.  It never happened, silly!  Look over there at those nasty Russians and forget about the MSM trying to interfere in the election, because they beat us at our own game, dammit!

Yes, Russia has been doing stunts like this for several years.  What I can't understand is how the left can be so dense.  They are only now surprised, like, "what, christmas is in december this year?"  The CIA and others had many revelations on Russia throughout Obama's terms AND HE DID NOTHING ABOUT IT.    He did, however, enjoy jerking down the CIA's pants in Benghazi, and that about sums up his relationship(and therefore his minions in the MSM and on the left) with the CIA.  So now all of a sudden the left and the MSM are breathlessly reporting what the CIA are saying like they don't hate the dirty little water boarders and want their organization to die.  

Nothing make the left look worse than their own actions. Seriously.

The MSM put Donald and Hillary on TV and let them debate and air campaign speeches. Do you also think they made Trump make the stupid comments and gestures because they wanted to prop up Hillary? Brietbart could probably construct a great piece about that, and Trump supporters would probably buy it.

[segnosaur]

Just now, sharkman said:

Look, that "article" reads like a grand conspiracy.  This nonsense about Russia is getting tedious.  We knew BEFORE the election that they had been hacking, and the left wasn't in an uproar over it.  You were relatively fine with it until you lost, which is  beyond all hypocrisy.  You can't now have it both ways.  

Ummm... not sure why exactly you are claiming that. In fact, both Hillary and Obama complained about the hacking long before election day. In fact, here's one from early October, roughly a month before the election. It points to Obama, Hillary and various Democrat politicians all complaining about Russian hacking and attempts to interfere with the election.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/07/us-russia-dnc-hack-interfering-presidential-election

And the disgusting revelations about what the MSM was doing to get Hillary the win is all now of course, ignored.

Actually, the biggest problem with the main stream media is that they allowed Trump's lies to go unchallenged. It wasn't until later during the election that they started doing more fact checking. (And no, doing fact checking on Trump is not some sort of dirty underhanded tactic... its what the media should have been doing all along but didn't.)

 

The CIA and others had many revelations on Russia throughout Obama's terms AND HE DID NOTHING ABOUT IT.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly was he supposed to do? They already had sanctions against Russia over their actions against Ukraine. 

 

He did, however, enjoy jerking down the CIA's pants in Benghazi, and that about sums up his relationship(and therefore his minions in the MSM and on the left) with the CIA.  So now all of a sudden the left and the MSM are breathlessly reporting what the CIA are saying like they don't hate the dirty little water boarders and want their organization to die.

Not exactly sure what you're claiming here. The discussions regarding Benghazi wasn't the left wing vs. the CIA, it was the republican party against hilllary. (They ran multiple investigations and found... nothing.) 

[segnosaur]

Just now, eyeball said:

It's just so hard to know who to believe.

 

Well, lets see... 

On one hand you have multiple intelligence agencies in the U.S., politicians from both the republican and democratic party, and private security firms all claiming that the hacking was done on behalf of the Russian government.

On the other hand, the groups that are claiming that there was no such hacking are basically the Trump campaign (and keep in mind Trump has had more than half of the statements analyzed on polifact rated as 'false') and the Russian government (headed by Putin.. of "we're not invading Crimera... those soldiers are really just guys in halloween costumes" fame.)

I think it should be pretty easy to know who to believe.

One thing I do know is that I'm a little gobsmacked that no one has thought to mention that the US hacks its way into every single country it can get it's own hackers into every day. I mean is it just me or has this oh-so-shocking revelation not so much as caused a single "ahem" or "point of order" of any sort anywhere?

I'm sure the U.S. does do a lot of hacking into other countries. (Heck, Boeing lost a contract with brazil because they found out that the U.S. government was taping the phones of Brazilian politicians.)

But, a little context is important here... yes, they hack and spy in order to gain an advantage. But interfering in actual elections of democratic countries is pretty rare these days.

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

Well, lets see... 

On one hand you have multiple intelligence agencies in the U.S., politicians from both the republican and democratic party, and private security firms all claiming that the hacking was done on behalf of the Russian government.

On the other hand, the groups that are claiming that there was no such hacking are basically the Trump campaign (and keep in mind Trump has had more than half of the statements analyzed on polifact rated as 'false') and the Russian government (headed by Putin.. of "we're not invading Crimera... those soldiers are really just guys in halloween costumes" fame.)

I think it should be pretty easy to know who to believe.

On yet another hand though...

Quote

 

US Intel Vets Dispute Russia Hacking Claims

As the hysteria about Russia’s alleged interference in the U.S. election grows, a key mystery is why U.S. intelligence would rely on “circumstantial evidence” when it has the capability for hard evidence, say U.S. intelligence veterans.

.....

In what follows, we draw on decades of senior-level experience – with emphasis on cyber-intelligence and security – to cut through uninformed, largely partisan fog. Far from hiding behind anonymity, we are proud to speak out with the hope of gaining an audience appropriate to what we merit – given our long labors in government and other areas of technology. And corny though it may sound these days, our ethos as intelligence professionals remains, simply, to tell it like it is – without fear or favor.

We have gone through the various claims about hacking. For us, it is child’s play to dismiss them. The email disclosures in question are the result of a leak, not a hack.

....

The various ways in which usually anonymous spokespeople for U.S. intelligence agencies are equivocating – saying things like “our best guess” or “our opinion” or “our estimate” etc. – shows that the emails alleged to have been “hacked” cannot be traced across the network. Given NSA’s extensive trace capability, we conclude that DNC and HRC servers alleged to have been hacked were, in fact, not hacked.

The evidence that should be there is absent; otherwise, it would surely be brought forward, since this could be done without any danger to sources and methods. Thus, we conclude that the emails were leaked by an insider – as was the case with Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning. Such an insider could be anyone in a government department or agency with access to NSA databases, or perhaps someone within the DNC.

 

Story

 

 

8 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

I'm sure the U.S. does do a lot of hacking into other countries. (Heck, Boeing lost a contract with brazil because they found out that the U.S. government was taping the phones of Brazilian politicians.)

But, a little context is important here... yes, they hack and spy in order to gain an advantage. But interfering in actual elections of democratic countries is pretty rare these days.

I'll rephrase a similar question I posed in a related thread, is it only fair and just when America hacks and spies in order to gain an advantage?

As for the recent rarity of American interference in other countries affairs, has the blow back from doing so for so long has finally caused America to think twice?

 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I'll rephrase a similar question I posed in a related thread, is it only fair and just when America hacks and spies in order to gain an advantage?

As for the recent rarity of American interference in other countries affairs, has the blow back from doing so for so long has finally caused America to think twice?

 

Probably not, as even Canada's Liberal government interfered in foreign elections and the kidnapping of a democratically elected president (Haiti 2004).   It's just part of a game that has been played for a long time.  The U.S. does it, as do other nations.   President Trump will know how to grease the skids.

[eyeball]

21 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Probably not

No, I didn't think so either.

[segnosaur]

Just now, eyeball said:

On yet another hand though...

US Intel Vets Dispute Russia Hacking Claims

The evidence that should be there is absent; otherwise, it would surely be brought forward, since this could be done without any danger to sources and methods. Thus, we conclude that the emails were leaked by an insider

Not really sure where those "Intel Vets" are getting their information.

They claim it wasn't a hack because there was "no evidence". But there was plenty of evidence. Security firms found tools on DNC computers that had been used by Russian hackers in the past. They've even traced communication to an IP address that had been used on cyber attacks on the German government. Pretty solid evidence that it wasn't an insider.

http://time.com/4600177/election-hack-russia-hillary-clinton-donald-trump/

I'll rephrase a similar question I posed in a related thread, is it only fair and just when America hacks and spies in order to gain an advantage?

Maybe, maybe not. But here's a question... did the U.S. interfere with the previous Russian election? After all, the only ones that would have the right to any sort of "revenge" turn-about would be if the U.S. made similar attempts to change the results of Russian elections.

As for the recent rarity of American interference in other countries affairs, has the blow back from doing so for so long has finally caused America to think twice?

Why would it? Every country probably does it. May be dirty pool, but if the U.S. didn't engage in such practices then they'd be put at a disadvantage.

Do you honestly think that, had the U.S. not engaged in various forms of espionage in the past, that Russia would not have attempted their cyber attacks on the U.S.?

[eyeball]

49 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

Not really sure where those "Intel Vets" are getting their information.

They claim it wasn't a hack because there was "no evidence". But there was plenty of evidence. Security firms found tools on DNC computers that had been used by Russian hackers in the past. They've even traced communication to an IP address that had been used on cyber attacks on the German government. Pretty solid evidence that it wasn't an insider.

http://time.com/4600177/election-hack-russia-hillary-clinton-donald-trump/

They seem to be inferring it. I'm reminded of the paranoid witch hunt in the movie No Way Out.  

This quote from your source strikes a chord;

Quote

If you’re unwilling to trust either camp, or if you want to find out if one side is acting in bad faith, you have little public information on which to form your own opinion. So how can a citizen decide whether Russia just tried to undermine the core exercise of American democracy or even, as the CIA has reportedly concluded, tried to get Donald Trump elected?

Well, as our resident American put it to me in a similar thread this hacking and influencing stuff is simply a result of any duly diligent intelligence agency doing its job. I'd assume that holds just as true for any other nation's intelligence services. 

Quote

Maybe, maybe not. But here's a question... did the U.S. interfere with the previous Russian election? After all, the only ones that would have the right to any sort of "revenge" turn-about would be if the U.S. made similar attempts to change the results of Russian elections.

I'm pretty sure I recall news stories coming out of Russia that said so at the time and the US has certainly interfered in the elections of several countries neighbouring Russia.  

 

Quote

Why would it? Every country probably does it. May be dirty pool, but if the U.S. didn't engage in such practices then they'd be put at a disadvantage.

Do you honestly think that, had the U.S. not engaged in various forms of espionage in the past, that Russia would not have attempted their cyber attacks on the U.S.?

 

I think that if the US had stayed true to the principles befitting a Shining Beacon of Democracy in the past that this discussion would seem alien and bizarre to both of us. I'm willing to go so far as to say we'd be contemplating what the government of the United States of Earth might look like.

From the comfort of our condos on the Moon.

Yes, I think we've seen that much human potential squandered in our lifetimes alone by the depredations of national governments around the globe, especially of the super powers.

Edited December 14, 2016 by eyeball

[BubberMiley]

10 hours ago, sharkman said:

Look, that "article" reads like a grand conspiracy.  This nonsense about Russia is getting tedious.  We knew BEFORE the election that they had been hacking, and the left wasn't in an uproar over it.  You were relatively fine with it until you lost, which is  beyond all hypocrisy.  You can't now have it both ways.  

And the disgusting revelations about what the MSM was doing to get Hillary the win is all now of course, ignored.  It never happened, silly!  Look over there at those nasty Russians and forget about the MSM trying to interfere in the election, because they beat us at our own game, dammit!

Yes, Russia has been doing stunts like this for several years.  What I can't understand is how the left can be so dense.  They are only now surprised, like, "what, christmas is in december this year?"  The CIA and others had many revelations on Russia throughout Obama's terms AND HE DID NOTHING ABOUT IT.    He did, however, enjoy jerking down the CIA's pants in Benghazi, and that about sums up his relationship(and therefore his minions in the MSM and on the left) with the CIA.  So now all of a sudden the left and the MSM are breathlessly reporting what the CIA are saying like they don't hate the dirty little water boarders and want their organization to die.  

Nothing make the left look worse than their own actions. Seriously.

People were in an uproar before the election, even though they thought Trump would lose. Why wouldn't people raise a stink about an adversarial foreign power interfering in their election?

What specifically are you referring to with regard to the "disgusting revelations"? about what the MSM was doing? I ask, because I know you have nothing of substance to offer. That's why you don't get specific.

I also see you used all caps to highlight the fact that YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT how Obama implemented sanctions against Russia.

Russia has not been interfering in U.S. elections for years. That's an outright lie to try to normalize the corrupt way Trump seized power. It looks to me like you're defending what amounts to treason and are trying to blame "the Left" to try to keep people from talking about it.

[segnosaur]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

They seem to be inferring it. I'm reminded of the paranoid witch hunt in the movie No Way Out.  

Labeling something a "witch hunt" does not necessarily make it so. Even if we don't have the evidence of a videotape of Putin personally logging into Democratic party computers to steal data (with Julian Assange looking over his shoulder in loving admiration), that doesn't mean that the evidence that was gathered is somehow invalid.

I'm a skeptic, in the 'rational thinker' sense. I believe in going where the evidence takes me. If the preponderance of evidence points towards Russian involvement, then the rational thinker should say "Hmmm... that's the most likely scenario".
 

Quote

 

This quote from your source strikes a chord;

If you’re unwilling to trust either camp, or if you want to find out if one side is acting in bad faith, you have little public information on which to form your own opinion. So how can a citizen decide whether Russia just tried to undermine the core exercise of American democracy or even, as the CIA has reportedly concluded, tried to get Donald Trump elected?

 

Its a largely irrelevant distinction... Whether the Russians tried to tip the election towards Trump or just tried to cause the election to be a mess, they still interfered in the election.

And Trump handled the situation badly, by immediately dismissing the concerns and vindictively attacking the CIA using yet more lies and disinformation. Its not a quality people should want in their president, dismissing intelligence reports by skilled agencies in favor of his own narrative.

I'm pretty sure I recall news stories coming out of Russia that said so at the time and the US has certainly interfered in the elections of several countries neighbouring Russia.

Which is not the question I asked... I asked for evidence that the U.S. tampered in Russian elections, not those of Russian neighbors.

After all, the attacks were not traced to Russian neighbors, but to Russia itself. If your claim that its some sort of "tit-for-tat", then you'd need to show the same sort of attacks on Russia that the U.S. had to deal with.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, sharkman said:

Look, that "article" reads like a grand conspiracy.  This nonsense about Russia is getting tedious.  We knew BEFORE the election that they had been hacking, and the left wasn't in an uproar over it.  You were relatively fine with it until you lost, which is  beyond all hypocrisy.  You can't now have it both ways.  usly.

WHO was relatively fine with it, other than Trump? Besides, they knew, but didn't have a definitive report until now. The odd thing is how so-called conservatives want to throw the US intelligence agencies under the bus to protect Russia. Are you a Putin fanboy? Are you now a Russian wannabe in addition to an American wannabe?

Edited December 14, 2016 by Argus

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, segnosaur said:

Which is not the question I asked... I asked for evidence that the U.S. tampered in Russian elections, not those of Russian neighbors.

After all, the attacks were not traced to Russian neighbors, but to Russia itself. If your claim that its some sort of "tit-for-tat", then you'd need to show the same sort of attacks on Russia that the U.S. had to deal with.

Like I said I do recall reports from Russia of US interference in Russia's election but I have no comment on their evidence of it. I've tried looking for Russian news stories but every single string of search terms I try keeps coming up with results pertaining to the last US election. In any case there can be no doubt the US has been routinely interfering in the governance of countries around the world for decades and decades so again the whining over being interfered with themselves is a little lame to say the least.

Personally I don't see any real ethical or moral differences between Russia and the US and I'd be really surprised to find both have in fact been behaving themselves.

Trump seems to handle everything badly and I'm not surprised at the dog's breakfast of reactions to this. The entire US political system resembles the Tower of Babel these days.

Edited December 14, 2016 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

.... In any case there can be no doubt the US has been routinely interfering in the governance of countries around the world for decades and decades so again the whining over being interfered with themselves is a little lame to say the least.

... The entire US political system resembles the Tower of Babel these days.

 

Agreed...the U.S. has done this as a matter of official government policy around the world, as have many other governments (including Canada).  

The domestic reaction vis-a-vis Trump is pure political theatre even as the U.S. continues such activity.

Edited December 14, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[GostHacked]

And if you think the US is not hacking Russian elections ..... 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

And if you think the US is not hacking Russian elections ..... 

Then you probably understand how low tech Russian elections are, which leaves out all the conspiracy theory goofballs.