Are Sexy Restaurant Outfits a Human Rights Issue?

Hal 9000 · March 12, 2016

BC Chick - I know you don't see the difference between a restaurant that specifically states "hey we have skimpy outfits!" and ones that don't but require their waitresses to do it anyway, but to me, that's the difference.

A woman who goes for a job at Hooters knows what her outfit will be and she is choosing to wear it. Cactus Club doesn't have uniforms, women are expected to wear their own clothes with certain guidelines.

It comes down to transparency on the part of the establishment, that's why I make the distinction.

With this statement, you're assuming that women who apply at these places have no idea what the waitress dress code will be. The comment is patronizing to say the least.

dre · March 12, 2016

The footwear thing I can see as being related to occupational health and safety.

I think the waitresses at Cactus Club are familiar with the dress code or are informed of it when they apply. When I've interviewed for jobs at bars, the expectations for dress were always discussed. I was always asked if I was ok with that. I don't think the girls at these restaurants are under the impression that they can wear whatever they feel like when they accept the job.

And as I said previously, I do have sympathy with the Bier Markt waitresses who had the tacky little dresses sprung on them unannounced, because that wasn't what they signed up for when they accepted the job. If a company changes the deal with the employees like that, they had better be prepared to reach some kind of fair settlement with employees who don't accept the new terms.

You're not the first to notice this. We think it's because of the moderator status.

-k

I think you two should get your leather mini-skirts on and take turns bringing me rum and cokes

Seriously though... I understand BC_Chicks concerns, I just don't see any reasonable way to deal with it via any kind of regulatory regime. You would need some kind of panel that researches the way that hundreds of thousands of establishments market themselves, and whether or not their dress codes match their marketing.

I would say... Vote with your feet! Don't go to establishments that operate in ways you don't like. I think on balance society is less tolerant and less interested in the sexual exploitation of women by businesses. An example of this is strip clubs closing across the country due to lack of demand.

WestCoastRunner · March 12, 2016

I think you two should get your leather mini-skirts on and take turns bringing me rum and cokes

Seriously though... I understand BC_Chicks concerns, I just don't see any reasonable way to deal with it via any kind of regulatory regime. You would need some kind of panel that researches the way that hundreds of thousands of establishments market themselves, and whether or not their dress codes match their marketing.

I would say... Vote with your feet! Don't go to establishments that operate in ways you don't like. I think on balance society is less tolerant and less interested in the sexual exploitation of women by businesses. An example of this is strip clubs closing across the country due to lack of demand.

I was going to mention the strip clubs closing down in an earlier post. Certainly in Vancouver there are less of them and it's even more difficult to obtain a license.

Bob Macadoo · March 12, 2016

And as I said previously, I do have sympathy with the Bier Markt waitresses who had the tacky little dresses sprung on them unannounced, because that wasn't what they signed up for when they accepted the job. If a company changes the deal with the employees like that, they had better be prepared to reach some kind of fair settlement with employees who don't accept the new terms.

Why? The door is always an option. I mean Tilted Kilt is just across the street......

Wardrobe is the purview of the employer. If past then most certainly future.

BC_chick · March 12, 2016

Dre, for me the shoes are absolutely a regulation issue. The outfits, admittedly, get murkier and the point I'm making is about transparency. That Marketplace investigation shows that transparency is not always present and that to me is unfair.

While I agree that it would be difficult to regulate the industry completely, I think it should at the very least be a human rights issue if the dress code expects things like cleavage but it's not upfront about it to potential servers.

As for the decrease in strip bars, I think it's just that times have changed. The novelty wore off and internet porn/massage parlours became readily available. The industry just ran its course much the same way DVD rentals did.

WestCoastRunner · March 12, 2016

As for the decrease in strip bars, I think it's just that times have changed. The novelty wore off and internet porn/massage parlours became readily available. The industry just ran its course much the same way DVD rentals did.

No that's not true. Neighbourhoods are standing up against licenses for strip clubs. There is no shortage of strip club patrons.

BC_chick · March 12, 2016

Read the article he posted, they're closing doors because of lack of demand. In the article it even says it had nothing to do with complaints.

WestCoastRunner · March 12, 2016

Read the article he posted, they're closing doors because of lack of demand. In the article it even says it had nothing to do with complaints.

Really? One article? There are many municipalities who have rejected these licenses. Just google them.

BC_chick · March 12, 2016

On second thought, I'm deleting that post. We're veering into thread-drift here.

Edited March 12, 2016 by BC_chick

WestCoastRunner · March 12, 2016

On second thought, I'm deleting that post. We're veering into thread-drift here.

It's not thread drift. However, I'm on my iPhone. Not easy to paste links. I will certainly do shortly. This wasn't meant to be a pissing contest.

-1=e^ipi · March 13, 2016

It's crazy to compare working at a strip club to a restaurant. Why do female servers need to show cleavage or a lot of leg.

Yes. And alternatively why can't men show cleavage and a lot of leg. The same dress standards should apply to men, women and non-binary people; anything else is sexist. If men can wear suits and ties to work, women should be able to as well. Alternatively, if women can wear dresses to work, men should be able to as well.

Bryan · March 13, 2016

Yes. And alternatively why can't men show cleavage and a lot of leg. The same dress standards should apply to men, women and non-binary people; anything else is sexist. If men can wear suits and ties to work, women should be able to as well. Alternatively, if women can wear dresses to work, men should be able to as well.

If my dog can be in public wearing only a spiked collar, I should be able to too.

Argus · March 13, 2016

As for the decrease in strip bars, I think it's just that times have changed. The novelty wore off and internet porn/massage parlours became readily available. The industry just ran its course much the same way DVD rentals did.

Men will always like to look at attractive naked women. The times haven't changed THAT much. However, strip clubs have been damaged by the smoking laws, just like other bars, and constant harassment from the authorities.

Argus · March 13, 2016

If my dog can be in public wearing only a spiked collar, I should be able to too.

Your dog is likely much kinder to the eyes naked than you are.

Bryan · March 13, 2016

Men will always like to look at attractive naked women. The times haven't changed THAT much. However, strip clubs have been damaged by the smoking laws, just like other bars, and constant harassment from the authorities.

Sure, but as BC-Chick has already said, the ways that men prefer to access those naked women has changed.

kimmy · March 13, 2016

Second, Kimmy and I having been debating the issue of the role sexy uniform niche-markets have in all this. She asked why I kept making a distinction between Cactus Club and Hooters and I clarified that it comes down to transparency.

When you have a uniform, a woman makes an informed decision which is completely at her own sole discretion and free will whether or not she wants to wear it.

Can you elaborate more on this transparency issue? Transparency between who and who?

If it's between the employer and the employee, I don't have any reason to doubt that the employees are informed of the dress code when they're hired. Surely anybody who has been to an Earl's or a Cactus Club figures out how the waitresses dress in a matter of seconds. Surely the expectations are discussed at hiring time.

Your examples-- what if you took grandma to a restaurant and the waitresses were too sexy? What if Chuck E Cheese decided the waitresses need to dress sexy? --seem to suggest that your concern is with protecting the customer, not the staff.

I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth by guessing what you're trying to say. Could you explain explicitly what restaurants could do to provide the "transparency" you're calling for?

Hypothetically, suppose I ran a restaurant where I want the waitresses to wear Little Black Dresses... how would I go about doing that in a manner that you wouldn't object to?

Seriously though... I understand BC_Chicks concerns, I just don't see any reasonable way to deal with it via any kind of regulatory regime. You would need some kind of panel that researches the way that hundreds of thousands of establishments market themselves, and whether or not their dress codes match their marketing.

I would say... Vote with your feet! Don't go to establishments that operate in ways you don't like. I think on balance society is less tolerant and less interested in the sexual exploitation of women by businesses. An example of this is strip clubs closing across the country due to lack of demand.

If customers vote with their feet, that's fine. I just really object to the idea that government bureaucrats would give themselves license to interfere in issues that are none of their business.

-k

Bryan · March 13, 2016

Your dog is likely much kinder to the eyes naked than you are.

No doubt. I'll never be as pretty as she is.

On Guard for Thee · March 13, 2016

Men will always like to look at attractive naked women. The times haven't changed THAT much. However, strip clubs have been damaged by the smoking laws, just like other bars, and constant harassment from the authorities.

Nothing, including strip bars, has ever been damaged by smoking laws. You may think that if you are still afflicted by tobacco, otherwise the rest of us breathe a whole lot easier when we go to bars.

WestCoastRunner · March 13, 2016

Read the article he posted, they're closing doors because of lack of demand. In the article it even says it had nothing to do with complaints.

Strip clubs are difficult to open mainly because of zoning bylaws (in other words, citizens don't want them).

http://www.metronews.ca/news/saskatoon/2013/12/03/industry-members-say-strip-club-bylaw-bad-for-business.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/strip-club-denied-regina-council-gets-standing-ovation-1.2931466

http://www.whistlerquestion.com/news/local-news/whistler-council-votes-to-ban-exotic-dancing-1.1290373

dre · March 13, 2016

If customers vote with their feet, that's fine. I just really object to the idea that government bureaucrats would give themselves license to interfere in issues that are none of their business.

-k

I think the standard should be "legal attire" and that's basically what it is. Hell I saw a guy on the sidewalk the other day outside the mall wearing a full body chicken suit and holding an A&W sign. Pretty demeaning (lol) and the kid was getting made fun of, jeered at, etc. But if he doesn't want to wear the chicken suit then he should not have applied for the job.

dre · March 13, 2016

Dre, for me the shoes are absolutely a regulation issue. The outfits, admittedly, get murkier and the point I'm making is about transparency. That Marketplace investigation shows that transparency is not always present and that to me is unfair.

While I agree that it would be difficult to regulate the industry completely, I think it should at the very least be a human rights issue if the dress code expects things like cleavage but it's not upfront about it to potential servers.

As for the decrease in strip bars, I think it's just that times have changed. The novelty wore off and internet porn/massage parlours became readily available. The industry just ran its course much the same way DVD rentals did.

I don't know enough to say whether or not high heels present a safety issue worthy of government regulation. I know for a fact it would be unsafe if I was forced to wear them, but the women I see wearing them seem to manage to operate the things OK.

As for cleavage, low-cut tops are perfectly legal. I don't have a problem with a business asking people to wear them.

BC_chick · March 13, 2016

Kimmy I wasn't talking about 'protecting' anyone I was talking why a restaurant would require sexy uniforms when their target clientele is not mostly men (as opposed to strip bar or Hooters).

Dre, the day came when airlines stopped asking women to dress sexy and we now have male and female flight attendants wearing similar clothing. We now think it's archaic to expect women who serve on flights to have to be sexy.

This should be a similar shift for the restaurant industry. We'll see.

I'm off for vacation now for a week. Thanks for the discussion, all.

kimmy · March 13, 2016

Kimmy I wasn't talking about 'protecting' anyone I was talking why a restaurant would require sexy uniforms when their target clientele is not mostly men (as opposed to strip bar or Hooters).

I don't think it's up to you or me or government bureaucrats to decide who a restaurant's target clientele is or whether the staff (or decor or menu) are appropriate. These are successful franchises we're talking about... they must have an idea what they're doing. I can't vouch for elsewhere, but the Kim City Cactus Club is among the busiest restaurants in town, which is why I keep mentioning it... I was there last week, had a find time, and enjoyed the atmosphere. Declaring that "These restaurants aren't right for their target clientele!" isn't a judgment call that you and I get to make. The accountants at the restaurant can figure out whether the business model is succeeding or failing.

And if these restaurants were floundering, it still wouldn't change the argument any. If a business owner is struggling to attract customers, he or she has to figure out what to do to turn things around. Not you, me, or a bureaucrat.

If crowds at Cactus Club fall off, then maybe the management will conclude "hey, our dress code might be turning away female customers" and ask the waitresses to wear cardigans and sensible shoes. Then again, they might conclude that it's the prices or the menu or any number of other things too.

And I still don't understand what you mean by "transparency" or what a restaurant would do to become "transparent" in your opinion. Earlier, I snidely asked whether you were advocating for a big yellow sign that said "Caution: sexy waitresses" outside these restaurants... and I am now starting to wonder if that is, in fact, what you're calling for.

-k

BC_chick · March 14, 2016

For the last time, this is not about enforcing restaurants to cover up their servers, it's about *not requiring* them to do so.

Let's put it this way. I own a styrofoam manufacturing company. I love hiring half naked women because it's great for business. Instead of hiring women who I think look like they like to dress half naked in hopes that they do, I put out a policy to my employees that says you must show cleavage and wear super short shorts to work here.

When HR commission says wait a minute, showing cleavage has nothing to do with making styrofoam cups, you're not allowed to do that.

And my answer is, but the accountants like it and Kimmy had fun here the other night, so why not??

Therein lies the crux of this argument. Being naked has nothing to do with serving food. You may encourage it but you can't enforce it.

As for transparency, it was in the context of restaurants that have uniforms (or up front when hiring). Try reading a little slower, I've explained myself already.

Edited March 14, 2016 by BC_chick

The_Squid · March 14, 2016

Let's put it this way. I own a styrofoam manufacturing company. I love hiring half naked women because it's great for business. Instead of hiring women who I think look like they like to dress half naked in hopes that they do, I put out a policy to my employees that says you must show cleavage and wear super short shorts to work here.

I think there has to be some recognition of the reality that making styrofoam cups is completely different than the service industry, where appearence is something that is integral to the industry.

If a lawyer wears jeans and a T-shirt, would that have an effect on his/her knowledge of the law? Of course not.... but that lawyer's law firm is going to say "wear a suit".