Argus Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I remember reading one woman's complaint was that the outfit is so short and tight that she was told to forego the underwear. There is no equivalence for male servers in the very same establishment where their outfits are sexualized. They all wear pants and shirts. Why? Because that's how men dress everywhere. If you go out to a nightclub and a guy dresses up it's in a suit. A girl in a nightclub will often wear short and revealing dresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) The problem is that most of the classier restaurants (earls, milestones etc) are the bulk of the good server jobs so women are resigned to dress as sluts in order to land a good server job. If all these restaurants adopted a more classy work environment then women wouldn't have to dress like a slut. It takes a combined effort on the part of all restaurants to eliminate these sexualized dress codes. Further to that, young women don't like dressing as sluts in order to garner more tips. You speak for all young women, do you? I bet a substantial number, knowing they will get much improved tips, will voluntarily lower their skirts and cleavage... And btw, that is not dressing like a 'slut'. The girls in the bar at Moxies, for example, where short black dresses. They look quite stylish, not slutty. Edited March 9, 2016 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Personally, it's kinda dumb that a waitress gives a guy a wink and a smile, shows some clevage and he drops a bigger tip. I think whole dance is rather silly, but it works for both party's so who am I to criticize Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 The problem is that most of the classier restaurants (earls, milestones etc) are the bulk of the good server jobs so women are resigned to dress as sluts in order to land a good server job. I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Further to that, young women don't like dressing as sluts in order to garner more tips. Why are speaking for all women? Why are you trying to tell all women what jobs they should or shouldn't want or be allowed to work at? Or how they should feel comfortable dressing at work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 The problem is that most of the classier restaurants (earls, milestones etc) are the bulk of the good server jobs so women are resigned to dress as sluts in order to land a good server job.Lets say the company relented and gave servers the option of modest clothing and the result is a reduction in tips. Do you think these women would be happy getting paid less or do you think they would reconsider their clothing choices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Why d,you have to work at one of these places to complain about the ridiculous requirement that women be objectified as servers, while men servers are not? More importantly why are women dependent on tips, while men get positions in these establishments that aren't? There's all kinds of double standards at play here that's worth discussing with a little more nuance than, "just go get another job." Huh? A lot of these places don't even hire "men servers" at all, or at least have a strong preference for good looking female servers. I know a number of women that work as servers and get minimum wage but with tips on top of it make $500+ every night. Where can a male server get that? Reality is good looking young women have a high-paying low-skill job option available to them, which is not available to young men or to not good looking young women. It is just one extra perk (or "privilege" to put it in lefty terminology) of being a pretty young woman, one they can choose to exercise or not to exercise. What kind of entry level restaurant jobs do men get that aren't dependent on tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Huh? A lot of these places don't even hire "men servers" at all, or at least have a strong preference for good looking female servers. I know a number of women that work as servers and get minimum wage but with tips on top of it make $500+ every night. Where can a male server get that? Reality is good looking young women have a high-paying low-skill job option available to them, which is not available to young men or to not good looking young women. It is just one extra perk (or "privilege" to put it in lefty terminology) of being a pretty young woman, one they can choose to exercise or not to exercise. What kind of entry level restaurant jobs do men get that aren't dependent on tips? I think that healthy young men have high-paying low-skill options of their own available to them. The number of brand-new $75000 one-ton pickups driving around town plastered with "Metal Mulisha" stickers seems to suggest so, anyway. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Ok WCR, here's the breakdown; I've argued many issues with you and you you're all about women's empowerment, from the stampede slut to naked little girls at the pool to Caitlyn Jenner it's always about the strength and empowerment of women. Yet here you are trying to stop women from dressing provocatively at work - calling it slutty. If I trashed what these women were/are wearing in downtown Vancouver, and called it slutty, you'd be all over me with "what right do you have telling her how to dress". I don't often have an opportunity to say this, but I agree with Hal. Before I got a regular 40 hour a week day job, I worked at a bar wearing a little black tank-top. After I got a regular 40 hour a week day job, I continued to do so. I enjoyed my co-workers, the environment, and the extra money. I never felt "oppressed" or "exploited". I was there of my own volition, and while I once in a while had unpleasant experiences, I think that every job offers unpleasant experiences of one kind or another. Given the choice between reliving my worst day working in a bar, or my worst day working at a tech support line, or my worst day working at the recycling sorting facility, I would definitely choose my worst day working in a bar. And I think the people who work at the upscale restaurants probably have it easier due to the lesser amount of drunk young adults. I A restaurant isn't just providing food, they're providing an atmosphere, and an experience. Mandating what's acceptable for the wait-staff to wear is an unwarranted interference with the business's ability to provide the atmosphere and experience they want to provide their customers. It's not like Earl's and the Cactus Club are the only restaurants in town. There are lots of other restaurants where you aren't expected to wear a Little Black Dress. It's not like there's an anti-trust case to be made here. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I don't often have an opportunity to say this, but I agree with Hal. Before I got a regular 40 hour a week day job, I worked at a bar wearing a little black tank-top. After I got a regular 40 hour a week day job, I continued to do so. I enjoyed my co-workers, the environment, and the extra money. I never felt "oppressed" or "exploited". I was there of my own volition, and while I once in a while had unpleasant experiences, I think that every job offers unpleasant experiences of one kind or another. Given the choice between reliving my worst day working in a bar, or my worst day working at a tech support line, or my worst day working at the recycling sorting facility, I would definitely choose my worst day working in a bar. And I think the people who work at the upscale restaurants probably have it easier due to the lesser amount of drunk young adults. I A restaurant isn't just providing food, they're providing an atmosphere, and an experience. Mandating what's acceptable for the wait-staff to wear is an unwarranted interference with the business's ability to provide the atmosphere and experience they want to provide their customers. It's not like Earl's and the Cactus Club are the only restaurants in town. There are lots of other restaurants where you aren't expected to wear a Little Black Dress. It's not like there's an anti-trust case to be made here. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I don't often have an opportunity to say this, but I agree with Hal. Before I got a regular 40 hour a week day job, I worked at a bar wearing a little black tank-top. After I got a regular 40 hour a week day job, I continued to do so. I enjoyed my co-workers, the environment, and the extra money. I never felt "oppressed" or "exploited". I was there of my own volition, and while I once in a while had unpleasant experiences, I think that every job offers unpleasant experiences of one kind or another. Given the choice between reliving my worst day working in a bar, or my worst day working at a tech support line, or my worst day working at the recycling sorting facility, I would definitely choose my worst day working in a bar. And I think the people who work at the upscale restaurants probably have it easier due to the lesser amount of drunk young adults. I A restaurant isn't just providing food, they're providing an atmosphere, and an experience. Mandating what's acceptable for the wait-staff to wear is an unwarranted interference with the business's ability to provide the atmosphere and experience they want to provide their customers. It's not like Earl's and the Cactus Club are the only restaurants in town. There are lots of other restaurants where you aren't expected to wear a Little Black Dress. It's not like there's an anti-trust case to be made here. -k Forgive me Kim for saying so but you aren't the best advocate for sticking up for women's issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) Forgive me Kim for saying so but you aren't the best advocate for sticking up for women's issues.How odd. No, don't focus on kimmy's substantive points and discuss that. I.e. address the points rather than the person Rather, just claim that she ain't feminist enough. Edited March 9, 2016 by msj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 How odd. No, don't focus on kimmy's substantive points and discuss that. I.e. address the points rather than the person Rather, just claim that she ain't feminist enough. How odd. You haven't even weighed in on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 How odd. You haven't even weighed in on this issue. Don't need to. Kimmy's doing just fine. She must be if the best you can come up with is a vacuous ad hominem attack. Oh, right, that's your MO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Forgive me Kim for saying so but you aren't the best advocate for sticking up for women's issues. (is it because I'm not on Team Hillary?) Right now I'm advocating for the young women who are working in the same sort of work that I used to enjoy and sticking up for their opportunity to make good money at it. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Forgive me Kim for saying so but you aren't the best advocate for sticking up for women's issues. Ok WCR, Suppose a woman goes to work as a teacher or bank teller dressed like a waitress from Twin Peaks and gets reprimanded. Who do you side with? Do you, as you did here claim she's dressed sluttty or is she empowered? You see, I think you'd choose the side of the woman and claim discrimination, I think you ramble on about how "she should be able to wear whatever she wants", how it's "the perverted male boss sexualizing a woman for her clothing choice". If she's a waitress getting tips, she's being manipulated and exploited, if a male boss gives discipline, she's the hard done by victim who is simply expressing herself. In other words, unlike Kimmy, you don't think out the issue, you simply find out how the woman is a victim and change your argument accordingly, and those that disagree are somehow against women and women's issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Forgive me Kim for saying so but you aren't the best advocate for sticking up for women's issues. What a silly thing to say. Why don't you actually try and argue a point? You have no coherent argument. I'm surprised you didn't call Kimmy a slut! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I never felt "oppressed" or "exploited". I was there of my own volition, and while I once in a while had unpleasant experiences, I think that every job offers unpleasant experiences of one kind or another. Given the choice between reliving my worst day working in a bar, or my worst day working at a tech support line, or my worst day working at the recycling sorting facility, I would definitely choose my worst day working in a bar. And I think the people who work at the upscale restaurants probably have it easier due to the lesser amount of drunk young adults. Me too. Before I finished my education and became professional BC_Chick, I worked in restaurants, sports-bars, strip bars, pretty much any place I could capitalize on my looks and I made a tonne of money. I concur, it was never a bad situation and I never felt exploited (except for one creepy owner, but that's one exception). However, anything I wore was my choice and I was never that I must wear a sexy uniform in order to have the job. I think this is where a lot of misunderstanding on this thread has come from. I don't think it's about forcing women to cover up and wear flats, it's about NOT making them high heels and show cleavage in order to keep their jobs. The high heels are my biggest issue in all this. They should never be requirement for serving food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I think that healthy young men have high-paying low-skill options of their own available to them. Perhaps. I can't think of any that are as widely and easily available, though, but perhaps. Doesn't really refute the point I made though, and your experience seems to be in agreement with my statement: having these kinds of employers and jobs around is a good option for a young woman to be able to make money. All that eliminating this opportunity will do is reduce the number of viable options that young women have to make a reasonable amount of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Because that's how men dress everywhere. If you go out to a nightclub and a guy dresses up it's in a suit. A girl in a nightclub will often wear short and revealing dresses. I get what you're saying and it's a fairly decent point but as I said to Squid, nightclubs are not in this equation as far as I'm concerned. It's somewhat fair to ask women who work in clubs to be representative of the patrons but the female patrons in Earl's, as far as I've seen, are not wearing revealing dresses and high heels. There is no reason for servers to dress as though they are in a night club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I guess we are now having a contest to see who was the hottest MLW server. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Not sluttiest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) Perhaps. I can't think of any that are as widely and easily available, though, but perhaps. Doesn't really refute the point I made though, and your experience seems to be in agreement with my statement: having these kinds of employers and jobs around is a good option for a young woman to be able to make money. All that eliminating this opportunity will do is reduce the number of viable options that young women have to make a reasonable amount of money. Yeah, I can't imagine that a lot of servers making 12$hr + 15-20$hr in tips want the feminist politicians stepping in to protect their honour. Edited March 9, 2016 by Hal 9000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Hal, again, this is not about forcing women to wear flats and cover their boobs. It's about them keeping their jobs even if they want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Seriously everyone, it's in the first two paragraphs of the article. It's about dress codes that *require* high heels and short skirts. NOBODY is forcing anyone to wear flats and cover their body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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