msj Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 You are clearly missing the point. What is the point then? I think kimmy certainly isn't missing the point and she is bang on on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Sure, presentable in accordance with the dress code established by the business. It would be easy to get around what you want: Earls and CC would just implement uniforms like Hooters. And since even you seem to be okay with that, then what? It's much simpler to let freedom reign: let the eye candy/hormonal men have their Hooters, Earl's and CC's while the rest of us enjoy other places to work and or dine at. Same goes for other industries. Other than real safety issues government intervention is not needed because of your or my opinion of what you or I think is reasonable or presentable. Sure, presentable in accordance with the dress code established by the business. It would be easy to get around what you want: Earls and CC would just implement uniforms like Hooters. And since even you seem to be okay with that, then what? It's much simpler to let freedom reign: let the eye candy/hormonal men have their Hooters, Earl's and CC's while the rest of us enjoy other places to work and or dine at. Same goes for other industries. Other than real safety issues government intervention is not needed because of your or my opinion of what you or I think is reasonable or presentable. Sure lets leave XYZ apparel to sexually exploit employees just because we can shop at ABC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 You've said the word transparency several times but steadfastly refuse to elaborate on it. Transparency between who and who regarding what? I'm not making it about you. I'm only addressing your argument, or lack thereof. And I believe that servers do have the same legal protection as other women working in the service industries. Porches? Do you mean the luxury car, or the place where you sip a beverage on a Sunday afternoon? In either case I think you're overestimating the sales power of cleavage. -k Porsche isn't allowed to demand cleavage from their sales personnel neither is any other sales/service industry. Why do you make an exception for servers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 What is the point then? I think kimmy certainly isn't missing the point and she is bang on on this one. The point you both keep hammering away is that this is about putting personal restrictions on servers when this is about NOT putting restrictions on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 I don't think a woman choosing to work in a CC where the code is to wear certain clothing is sexually exploitive. Or, if it is exploitive, then it is to make stupid hormonal men the victims by raking in the big tips. The owners do benefit from this too, no doubt, as sex sells. But just because sex sells does not inherently make it some kind of evil exploitive thing. There is nothing wrong with sex and nothing wrong with people enjoying this kind of ambience. If you don't like it then don't partake in it. But why do you need the government to crack down on this? Who is being unduly harmed? Why do you want certain women to not make great tips? Why do you want stupid hormonal men to not get whatever thrill they get from going to these restaurants? Show us the undue harm that allows for the overwriting of freedoms to choose how a business is run, who works in that business and who the target customer is for that business. All you have mustered so far is that you think it is exploitive and that you do not like it and neither are enough to justify government intervention, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 The point you both keep hammering away is that this is about putting personal restrictions on servers when this is about NOT putting restrictions on them. Restrictions are put on staff all the time. My staff have a dress code but it is, of course, conservative. My staff sign certain agreements about privacy code, confidentiality, client independence etc etc too. Sure, this is all standard stuff in my industry and quite reasonable for anyone who would care to read our policies (although some complain about our dress code being too conservative - no sleeveless tops for women, for example, since men also are not allowed to come in wearing a muscle shirt). High heels and cleavage are not a big deal in modern Canada. Yes, it attracts a certain clientele that can be exploited to ring up big sales and big tips. That's the point and it is not a crime nor worthy of government interference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Ask your receptionist to show cleavage as part of her job and you might have an argument. After all she's not a CPA, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Of course you're a smarter business man than that. You wouldn't want a sexual discrimination charge against you. But servers. Meh, who cares. That's what you're saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Also, servers can choose to work at many different style restaurants. There's lots of choice so once again, what is the problem? Who is being harmed? Who will be harmed if women at CC are forced to button up? The women will lose those tips because of your opinion that they are being sexually exploited whether they think they are or not or whether they choose to participate in that type of business or not. But, of course, your opinion of their "sexual exploitation" supercedes their right to choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) The issue is that that are 4 types of restaurants. Fast food, casual, casual upscale and high end. Casual upscale is the highest earning which doesn't require vocational training or experience and the women who work in these high paying jobs shouldn't be *expected* to dress provocatively to serve food. Everyone here thinks the law wants them to cover up whereas all it wants to do is protect those who want to make money without having to dress sexually. As you would expect in ANY other profession that does not cater to sex. Edited March 14, 2016 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Porsche isn't allowed to demand cleavage from their sales personnel neither is any other sales/service industry. Why do you make an exception for servers? Unlike a Porsche salesperson, the service staff at a restaurant are an integral part of what the customer is paying for. The point you both keep hammering away is that this is about putting personal restrictions on servers when this is about NOT putting restrictions on them. What you want to restrict is the business's ability to provide the atmosphere and experience that its customers receive. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Unlike a Porsche salesperson, the service staff at a restaurant are an integral part of what the customer is paying for. What you want to restrict is the business's ability to provide the atmosphere and experience that its customers receive. -k I want to extend to servers what is offered to women working in any other profession but go ahead keep making it about me. This is about making servers equal to the rest of working professionsAnd go ahead show me the stats that people go to restaurants for the cleavage as opposed to service and food. Edited March 14, 2016 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Ask your receptionist to show cleavage as part of her job and you might have an argument. After all she's not a CPA, right? Our dress code applies to all staff as does our confidentiality, privacy, and independence rules. She is capable of choosing her own clothes that fit within the dress code and some are revealing (yet still within the rules of our code) which I presume she wears because she likes wearing them. Our current senior administrator could work at a CC and does wear clothes that you would probably think are "sexually exploitive" even though they fit within our rules and we do not expect her to wear them. Neither do we expect her to wear frumpy clothes for that matter. I suspect the fact that she is quite physically attractive would probably be the bigger issue here and is really what the point is about: certain people don't like young attractive people getting certain jobs and making good money based on their looks. I can appreciate that attitude since I'm an accountant after all. But life isn't fair and there are bigger issues for a government to be concerned with than young women exploiting men for big tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 That was a long winded way to say no you do not require cleavage from your receptionist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Btw I'm an accountant too. I dress as sexy as I want on the job but watch out if anyone ever told me I have to show cleavage in order to keep the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Of course you're a smarter business man than that. You wouldn't want a sexual discrimination charge against you. But servers. Meh, who cares. That's what you're saying. One of my staff just had her two breasts removed. She came in and we discussed various things about her chemo and radiation therapy she will need to go through for the next 14 months. Since I have had cancer we are able to freely discuss these things. She also mentioned reconstructive surgery as it will lead to more time off from work etc etc. She takes off her jacket and is obviously wearing a prosthetic bra. She points it out and asks, in front of two other women, if I want to feel her boobs. I laugh, then I tell her I'll take a rain cheque. We all have a good laugh and I haven't been served any papers yet. Women and men can work together and make jokes without anyone feeling exploited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 I want to extend to servers what is offered to women working in any other profession but go ahead keep making it about me. This is about making servers equal to the rest of working professions And go ahead show me the stats that people go to restaurants for the cleavage as opposed to service and food. A dress code isn't a human rights issue. I don't claim to have a specific breakdown on reasons people go to restaurants. I believe in the overall experience. Food, service, atmosphere, ambience, decor, and other things create the overall experience. People go to restaurants for reasons beyond just food. When somebody opens up a restaurant with fluorescent tube lighting, plastic surplus chairs, plain linoleum floors, and servers dressed in asexual grey overalls, I'll be willing to believe otherwise. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) That was a long winded way to say no you do not require cleavage from your receptionist.Sure, but given that I don't like Hooters or CC or Earl's it should come as no surprise that I would not encourage my staff to dress like that. Which is not the same thing as saying that another office, if it so wanted to, should not hire and expect those things if that was the atmosphere that they were looking for. Once again, no need for government intervention. Although I suppose the CPA rules may need to be checked to see if this kind of thing is permissible but being a member based organization of course the members must adhere to the rules that we set out for ourselves. Edited March 14, 2016 by msj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Msj, I still don't think you understand the issue here. Why should I (or your receptionist) be protected by the law to not be required to show cleavage but a server isn't? Kimmy, you say the server's service is integral to the experience but I say it's as secondary as my job as an accountant. I still have to liaise with my clients, even though the quality of my service (equivalent of the food servers serve) is the primary commodity. Why should we have two sets of standards? And this has nothing to do with my job or age. Even when I was 20 and wearing sexy outfits to serve on tables I totally got it when one of my colleagues did not feel like this should be an imposition. Edited March 14, 2016 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) People are talking about not requiring servers to dress in a sexy manner, but leaving them the option to do so if they choose. That would be a reasonable argument, except for what would happen in reality, which is that if it's not required, some of those servers who choose not to dress in that way will aggressively "slut shame" those who do. Social pressures like this are very strong, and eliminating jobs where waitresses are expected to earn high tips while dressing sexy will effectively also eliminate the possibility of jobs where they are merely allowed to do so. And that means basically eliminating one of the easiest ways for young women to make a decent hourly wage before they have acquired professional skills. If a law to this effect is passed, those who benefit will be a few angry feminists, and those who will be affected most negatively are the thousands of young women trying to pay their way through college. Edited March 14, 2016 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Bonam, so you agree with the idea in theory but you can predict the future so you're against it. That's not good enough. I'm still waiting for one good reason why a different set of standards should be imposed on servers than any other profession. Edited March 14, 2016 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Btw how do you figure earning capacity will be lowered in the *highly unlikely* scenario that 'angry feminists slut shame' servers into not showing cleavage? Are you implying the majority of restaurant goers are there for the cleavage? Seriously? From what many of the posters have said here, many people avoid these restaurants for that reason. You'd think the wages would go up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Btw how do you figure earning capacity will be lowered in the *highly unlikely* scenario that 'angry feminists slut shame' servers into not showing cleavage? Are you implying the majority of restaurant goers are there for the cleavage? Seriously? From what many of the posters have said here, many people avoid these restaurants for that reason. You'd think the wages would go up. A few people here said they avoid those restaurants, mostly because they want to socially affirm themselves by proclaiming what upright citizens they are that they would never partake of something so crude. In any case, hardly representative. As for how earning capacity will be lowered... cute girls in tight dresses tend to get big tips, you're aware of this, right? You said you used to serve tables while wearing sexy outfits in your 20s. What portion of the time did you get tips greater than 15%? Any idea of how this may have compared to your male colleagues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Actually, I got the biggest tip I ever got from a couple. It was for remembering their drink from the last time they were in. I'll never forget them. Im pretty sure some tipped me because they liked how I dressed and I'm pretty sure some of my clients still like the way I dress but I'm not sure how this gives anyone the right to *stipulate* how I dress. And I certainly don't see why servers should be treated any differently than me. We're both providing a service while doing a job. Edited March 14, 2016 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Surely, Bonam, you wouldn't say an accounting firm has a right to tell me to show my boobs because it makes us *both* more money? Surely, you wouldn't think that of any other sales/service profession would you? Why do you feel servers aren't worthy of the same protection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.