Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[Rue]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

You are spreading false information.  No pilot I have spoken has been anything less than over the top enthusiastic about the game changing nature of F-35, including an ex-RCAF CF-18 pilot who lives just down the street from here, and Lockheed Martin test piliot Billie Flynn who is the most combat experience CF-18 pilot of them all.

It's has to do with arrogance, it's like going from Flip phone to IPhone and complaining that is doesn't flip anymore, which you might be doing, but which the pilots do not do.

The pilots more than anyone understand how  to exploit, and this is a young force, these are Millennial pilots now, so it works the way they are used to working.

Unlike a 4th generation fighter, there are no blind spots on the jet at all, it's staring IRST hemispheric coverage out to beyond visual range.  The jet is looking in all directions, you don't need a bubble canopy anymore, because nobody can sneak past the infrared all seeing eye, it detects other fighters before they are in visual range with the naked eye.

Hi you accusing me of fake news lol. No I have like anyone can read what get pilots have said. The anger by pilots over the toy helmet turning their lives into a PlayStation game is real. Israel had a Tsfir fighter that long ago did what the 35 is trying to do. The pilots shut it off. The Yanks shut down the Tsfir to recent competition.Now Israel is locked in having to assist develop the 35 and is in fact modifying it's F35 precisely because of the over reliance on that helmet.  It is an over hyped toy with no back up if it fails other than disaster. It's a turkey. You fly it.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Rue

[Rue]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

You are spreading false information.  No pilot I have spoken to has been anything less than over the top enthusiastic about the game changing nature of F-35, including an ex-RCAF CF-18 pilot who lives just down the street from me here, and Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn who is the most combat experienced CF-18 pilot of them all.

Its has nothing to do with arrogance, it's like going from Flip phone to iPhone and complaining that is doesn't flip anymore, which you might be doing, but which the pilots do not do.

The pilots more than anyone understand how  to exploit the technology, and this is a young force, these are Millennial pilots now, so it works the way they are used to working.

Unlike a 4th generation fighter, there are no blind spots on the jet at all, it's staring IRST hemispheric coverage out to beyond visual range.  The jet is looking in all directions, you don't need a bubble canopy anymore, because nobody can sneak past the infrared all seeing eye, it detects other fighters before they are in visual range with the naked eye.

Of course it has blind spots which is why it has to rely on the helmet for vision and that is an insane way to develop a craft. Technology should never replace only assist vision.

[Dougie93]

The fake reform gurus vastly over emphasize dogfighting, but rest assured that F-35 is close to Raptor like in high alpha envelope used for dogfighting.

So as a redundancy, F-35 retains the dogfighting capabilities of the F-16 and F/A-18, just in case.

But in actual fact, dogfigting is obsolete, dogfighting simply means getting around behind the other guy, but with technology now, you don't have to get behind the other guy to shoot him anymore. 

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Rue said:

Of course it has blind spots which is why it has to rely on the helmet for vision and that is an insane way to develop a craft. Technology should never replace only assist vision.

It's the not the helmet, the DAS IRST is staring all the time, the pilot can use the helmet to look through the plane to see what the DAS sees, but the DAS has already seen it and is tracking it in real time, and displaying it to the pilot in two ways at once, either 2D on the Tactical Situation Display or in 3D by using the Helmet Mounted Display.

Most of the time the pilot is not even flying the jet, he is letting the jet fly itself and watch his back, while he focuses on the main objective, if another jet tries to get in behind him, the DAS will detect that and display it, long before he could have seen it with his eyes,

Also bear in mind that in war now, this is all happening at night, these operations are mostly conducted at night.

[Dougie93]

Also, fake reform guru assertions that the helmet doesn't work are out of date, we've fixed the latency problem with the helmet, the helmets are working great now.

It's a spiral upgrade program, no plane is ever finished in this day and age, it's like a Tesla, we are constantly downloading updates to the jets.

In the future we will have an optionally manned update which will allow one pilot to control four jets, his own, plus three more without pilots in the chair.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

42 minutes ago, Rue said:

Hi you accusing me of fake news lol. No I have like anyone can read what get pilots have said. The anger by pilots over the toy helmet turning their lives into a PlayStation game is real. Israel had a Tsfir fighter that long ago did what the 35 is trying to do. The pilots shut it off. The Yanks shut down the Tsfir to recent competition.Now Israel is locked in having to assist develop the 35 and is in fact modifying it's F35 precisely because of the over reliance on that helmet.  It is an over hyped toy with no back up if it fails other than disaster. It's a turkey. You fly it.

Again, you are spreading disinformation, I've not heard any pilot say that, and I've met quite a few, you're just presenting yourself as a spokesman for pilots when you're not one of them, so fake news by default.

I don't think you know much about the IDF neither, quite sure I know more about the IDF than you, including the fact that they haven't fought a dogfight in decades, and have never actually flown into a dogfight with this type of HMD, so they don't have any experience where they would have turned this helmet off in combat.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Rue]

45 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Canadian CF-35A would not be inferior in any way to other F-35s,  so don't know what you mean.

 

The F35 is not the same fighter for each country.  It's modified and the type f modifications determines it's real price. Have you ever bought a car? You think the base model is where the purchase ends? 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Rue

[Dougie93]

Just now, Rue said:

Yes it would. The F35 is not the same fighter for each country. 

No modifications by any other country render the Canadian version inferior.

[Rue]

Of course they do including what Israel has done already to its 35 's and what the US will do with it's 35's and just like the fghters sent in the past to Saudi Arabia such were inferior to the US and Israeli ones. The F18 navy model is not the F18 we use or Australia uses such is why purchasing aged incompatble  Aussie18' made no sense. Modifications determine price and capability...always have.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Rue

[Dougie93]

Just now, Rue said:

Of course they do including what Israel has done and he US will do just like the fghters sent in the past to Saudi Arabia for example were inferior to the US and Israeli ones. The F18 navis use is it the one Canada uses either. Modifications determine price and capability...always have.

The modifications to the IDF Adir variant are not significant to performance, the Adir simply integrates some Israeli made after market electronics, which are not actually superior, the Israelis simply wanted to swap out some American and British made kit for the Israeli version, it's not superior, it's just made in Israel.

[Rue]

No. The modifcatins change the operational functions signifcantly and are not released to mantain tactical advantage and so you and I   have no idea  what has been done to them and no Canada does not have the same expertise as Israel or Britain or the US on certain military advancements that will never be shared.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Rue

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Rue said:

No. The modifcatins change the operational functions signifcantly and are not released so you and so we  have no idea  what has been done to them and no Canada does not have the same expertise as Israel or Britain or the US on certain military advancements that will never be shared.

Not true.  Fake news.  The Adir doesn't integrate any game changers, they just swapped out some electronics so Israel can use its own ordinance with the jet, like Rafael SPICE for example, and they swapped out the British ECM for the Israeli version, but the Israeli version is not superior, it's just made in Israel, they just wanted some more defense pork for Israeli contractors.

This would not be superior for Canada, as Canada sources from the Pentagon, a modified version would be inferior not superior.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Also note that ever since they acquired it, the IDF has been using the F-35I Adir constantly, the stealth allows them to go up into Syria and Lebanon to bomb Hezbollah and Quds force, without the Russians and Syrians being able to detect the Adir, that way Israel can bypass the Russians and strike Hezbollah with impunity, inside the Russian IADS zone.

This is the F-35 concept of operations in action, there's no dogfights, can't get a lock on them coming nor going, they are in and out, hit and run, do need to dogfight at all.

It's also complementary to their existing fleet, because F-35 can loiter up in there doing armed ISR for the rest of the IDF, which can launch ordinance from stand off range as missile/bomb trucks for the F-35 Quarterback inside the IADS, undetected.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

If you look at the premier 4th Generation Air Superiority Fighter, F-15 Eagle, it's not actually optimized to dogfight neither.

That's not how the F-15 wins, the F-15 uses speed to extend out of the furball, then come back in to hit and run, then extends back out again without turning at the merge.

That's what made F-15 so formidable, it didn't have to dogfight, so it was a game changer.

What changed is that radar and missile technology have advanced to the point where the F-15 has lost its edge, speed is not life anymore, if they can see it they can shoot it down, and F-15 has a large radar cross section.

F-35 restores the dominance which F-15 once delivered, it just does it differently,  it fights like an F-15, hit and run, but it uses stealth instead of speed to allow that.

Dogfighting is not good, dogfighting is bad, dogfighting means you've lost all advantage and are in an knife fight where either guy can lose

The best aces always avoided dogfights,  preferring to hit and run, pick people off before they knew you were there, and that's all the way back to WWI, because that's how Canadian aces Bishop and Barker racked up most of their kills too.

Even with the vaunted F-22, dogfighting is bad, that's not how F-22 fights, if F-22 turns at the merge and slows down into WVR ACM, the F-22 has given away all its advantages, F-22 can be shot down in that situation, which is why F-22 doesn't bother to dogfight, F-22 hits and runs too.

F-22 fights the same as F-35, F-22 uses Stealth and Sensor Fusion too, it just uses an older version, whereas F-35 is using the latest version.

This actually makes the F-35 better than the F-22,  even air to air, because all the extreme maneuvers the F-22 can do, are basically useless in actual combat now, that's airshow, that's  not real world anymore.   Information is life now,  F-35 has more, that is the edge, even air to air.

4th Generation is Gunfight at the OK Corral.

Everybody is seeing everybody, everybody draws at the same time, everybody gets shot.  War of Attrition.

5th Generation is Stealth Assassination. 

You never see him coming, he walks up and shoots you in the back of the head, and then walks away, never saw him going neither.  Information War.

Hornet is Flip Phone.   Panther is iPhone.   Hornet is Chevy.   Panther is Tesla.

Super Hornet is just a really fancy Flip Phone, but it's not an iPhone, even though you will pay the same price as iPhone, you're buying obsolete tech.

Not just a little bit obsolete, totally obsolete, yes, Flip Phone and iPhone are both phones, but they are not equal, and everybody is switching to iPhone, so Canada buying Flip Phones puts Canada out of the loop.   Canada would still be on the radio, when everybody else is on the internet.

Whatever Canada buys, it's going to be used for at least forty years, buying a Flip Phone to use for the next forty years is obviously folly.

Get the Telsa with the iPhone Canada, I mean, duh.

At Lockheed Martin; we never forget who we are working for.   Help us, to help you.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

So basically the F-35 is a hard to detect, self-contained intelligence node with the speed and agility to dogfight like perhaps no other fighter with the destructive magnitude of a bomber.  See, this kind of information shows the public why the F-35 is worth procuring.  

There are many things I’d like for the Canadian Forces, such as aircraft carriers and new subs, but I think much of the old hardware is obsoleted by the F-35.  Between patrol ships, drones, some lesser jets like the Super Hornets, and a handful of the F-35’s, we’d have a formidable capacity.  The question isn’t whether to buy the F-35, but how many.  

Doesn't have the destructive magnitude of a bomber, bomber is B-1, B-2, B-52.   Massively more destructive magnitude.

F-35 is still a tactical aircraft, optimized for the Air Interdiction role, which is below the long ranged tactical and strategic heavy bombardment role of the bombers.

Interdiction however, is the full spectrum of interdiction with F-35.  It does all possible interdiction missions, all in one. 

Not a Bomb Truck.

Bombing is actually the least of it, it's spectrum of options and Information Dominance, combined with stealth, makes it an exponential force multiplier well in excess of simply dropping bombs.

None the less, if you need it to be a bomb truck, it can do that, internal and external in Beast Mode, it can truck a lot of bombs if that is the interdiction method you choose.

Just like it's not going to need to dogfight, the CF-18's have never been in one, but like the CF-18, if you choose to dogfight in an  F-35 , it can do that too.

That's just the low end of its spectrum though, the Information Warfare capabilities are really what sets it apart from the rest.

That being said, since Canada is protected by Fortress America, Giant Switzerland, Canada does not need the F-35 per se.

Canada does not even need any tactical air force per se.

F-35 is optional.   Fighter squadrons themselves are option too.  New Zealand doesn't have any, Canada is like a Giant New Zealand too.

There's nothing in NORAD stipulating that Canada has to fly its own fighters, Canada can simply let the Americans base some in Canada.  Canada would still be in NORAD, that wouldn't change.

Canada could also, just like New Zealand, get out of the bombing other countries game in the process, that's what the lefties voted for in New Zealand.

The RCAF meanwhile could spend the money on things more relevant to Canadians, mostly transport, rescue and helicopters.

Yes, Canada would be out of the big leagues, but so what?  Canadians don't want to be in the big leagues, being defended by Fortress America makes sense to them.

However, if the entrenched interests who run Canada insist on keeping a toe in the big leagues, then yes, F-35 is the only way to stay there.

As a Canadian taxpayer, I don't want to spend any money on this boondoggle.  Not just F-35, the whole CF boondoggle itself.

As a Lockheed Martin shareholder on the other hand, I am of course open for business, and if Canada wants to buy our product, we say thank you, please come again.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Panther.    Information War FTW.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

The Canadian CF-35A would not be inferior in any way to other F-35s,  so don't know what you mean.

Love it: CF-35A, fully equipped for state of the art multi-platform patrol and attack supremacy over the Arctic.  

[Dougie93]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Love it: CF-35A, fully equipped for state of the art multi-platform patrol and attack supremacy over the Arctic.  

What it is achieving supremacy over up there is not clear to me, but certainly, it can dominant that vast empty space for you at your leisure.

[Dougie93]

While it can perform the NORAD role, that's not what the F-35 is optimized for, NORAD is interceptor, F-35 is multirole, so can do that, but its primary role is Interdiction.

So there's really only one reason for Canada to buy the F-35, and that is the NATO role.   Interdiction in support of either NATO Article V or UNSC Chapter 7 Resolutions.

[Dougie93]

And for all you Anti-Nuclear Peaceniks out there, understand what is inclusive to Canada's NATO role.   Canada participates in the NATO theater deterrent force.

So the F-35 would be Canada's nuclear strike weapon.   In the event of the Balloon going up on the Trace in Europe, Canada would be in the mix with the nukes.

F-35 can deliver two NATO B61-12 Tactical Thermonuclear Bombs from the NATO bases in Europe.

Superpower Like Capability at Middle Power Prices.

But in the event of war, that means nukes, make no mistake.

With the Stealth and Sensor Fusion, F-35 Panther is not just a nuclear strike weapon, it's inherently a preemptive nuclear strike weapon.

Those B61's are made to be used.   Theater Thermonuclear War.   Counterforce Option. 

F-35 can penetrate the Russian defenses to deliver the nukes, first strike.

And NATO does not have a No First Use policy, NATO reserves the right to strike with a counterforce as necessary,

This is the Arms Race, I am the MICC

But I'm not going to sugar coat it for you, this is not a defensive weapon, the best defense is a good offense, ergo, there's no such thing as a defense weapon.

This is an offensive weapon and it is inherently a nuclear weapon. 

The Balance of Terror means what it says.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Now, in terms of actually dominating Canadian space, to include the Arctic?

That's where I take my Military Contractor hat off and put my Military Analysts hat on.

That's where I look to Canada's Napoleon Bonaparte..  Canada's Military Genius.

Marshall McLuhan.   Next Generation Information War.

The way to dominate the space, is with people.  People willing to live there and secure it.  People willing to come out and defend it.  People on the ground.

Information Warriors.

What's the Information?

Plains of Abraham.

Treaty of Paris 1763. 

British North America Act.  

Canada Act. 

Parliamentary Supremacy. 

British Westminster.

Glorious Revolution.

The Enlightenment.

Je me Souviens.

Dieu et mon droit.

Nec Aspera Terrent.

God save the Queen and Her Mohawk Warriors.

Brock & Tecumseh at the Heights of Queenston.

I fight the Information War, Her Majesty my shield.  My sword, is the story of my people, and solemn oath to kill and die for them as necessary.

Victoria Regina Imperatrix.  Mother Canada.  Pro Patria.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

That being said.   I am losing this war.   It's already a lost cause.  

There is a fallback position tho.

At the foot of the Lord.   Nearer my God to thee.

Empire of Liberty.

Flight to Quality.

America F*ck Yeah.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Panther.  Full Spectrum Dominance.  Market Forces.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

What to do with you, Dougie?  Sometimes you sound so eloquently patriotic.  As long as Canada is honoured in your rhapsody, I’m good with it.  I hope we get serious about the right things in the military.  The F-35 rights many wrongs in one fell swoop, so I hope we get them, and soon.  

[Dougie93]

23 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What to do with you, Dougie?  Sometimes you sound so eloquently patriotic.  As long as Canada is honoured in your rhapsody, I’m good with it.  I hope we get serious about the right things in the military.  The F-35 rights many wrongs in one fell swoop, so I hope we get them, and soon.  

It is entirely patriotic to have contempt for Confederation, it was never unanimous in any way, not in 1867, not now.

Quebec hasn't even signed the Canada Act.  

There's nothing more Canadian than God save the Queen & Vive le Quebec libre.

Multiculturalism, learn to deal.

CF-35A in RCAF livery

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

The other advantage imparted by a CF-35A is that it does not require a two seat trainer version, it's so easy to fly pilots can use the simulator for that training.

This means that the RCAF wouldn't have to maintain 410 Cougar Tactical Fighter Operational Training Squadron in the conversion role.

Every CF-35A Panther would be available for operations, so whatever number Canada would buy, those would all be "Guns" Squadrons, nothing held back for training.

[Dougie93]

HM RN F-35B deck landing, pilots eye view of the Helmet Mounted Display.

So, it has multiple modes.  Mode one is just HUD symbology.

Adding the DAS imagery overlay has two modes.  The first is the square in the middle of the pilots view. 

That square is looking through the jet, notice how it makes the canopy bow invisible. 

The second DAS mode is like VR, the square expands so that the whole of the pilots vision is looking through the jet

For him it's like he's flying without a jet, Superman View, he's just floating in space and can look in any direction.

The pilots switch between these modes as they need to, sometimes they need to look through the jet, sometimes they don't

And if Rue comes in with his fake news to tell you that the Israelis don't like the helmet?

Just remember that the manufacturer VSI is a partnership between Rockwell Collins and Elbit Systems of Israel.

The helmet is Israeli technology, they invented the HMD, they are the world leaders in this field.

I'm not invoking the Jewish Bolshevik Conspiracy mind you, but Rue is spreading all the classic fake reform guru conspiracy theories in this thread

"stealth doesn't work" "the pilots don't like it"  etcetera.

This sort of fake news media misinformation clickbait simply increases friction for the RCAF to acquire the jet it says it needs.

Instead of correcting the fake news the Liberals have instead chosen to pander to it, following the lead of their CBC state propaganda arm.

The CBC of course being the leading agency in the Disarmament by Stealth program, nothing the socialist unionized CBC likes more than trashing the military.

The Canadian media as per usual picks up on the fake news and peddles it, only the conspiracy theories about F-35 are reported, the Liberals then adopt it as policy.

And so it goes in the Post National State, the most unmartial country in the history of the world. <spits tobacco juice>

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93