Western Alienation

[overthere]

If he said that, it would suffer the same fate as Northern Gateway.

Both of them are dead, clearly. But killing Energy East will piss off far more people than did killing Gateway, so the strategy is Chretienesque: do nothing overt and let the corpse rot slowly.

Eventually the oil companies and pipeline companies will just give up, pack their bankrolls and leave.

It gives Trudeau an excuse to be surprised and pretend he had nothing to do with their decision. It's the Long Con that is politically safest.

[Big Guy]

What happens if oil stays at $30 barrel for the next 15 years and/or foreseeable future?

Edited February 5, 2016 by Big Guy

[Smallc]

Both of them are dead, clearly.

Since you keep stating it, it's clearly so.

[Smallc]

Canada has now missed that opportunity to due to lack of political will/action.

If we did, I'm sure you'll somehow blame Trudeau.

[eyeball]

What happens if oil stays at $30 barrel for the next 15 years and/or foreseeable future?

The old NEP will just look better and better the father it falls behind us.

[overthere]

Since you keep stating it, it's clearly so.

Gateway is clearly deceased, Trudeau disconnected the last shreds of life support as one of his very first acts as PM. Or have you forgotten that?

Energy East is more incremental, harder to make go away. And I have provided examples of how and why he is doing that, right now.

Any questions?

What happens if oil stays at $30 barrel for the next 15 years and/or foreseeable future?

More worrisome is how we will survive Trudeau for the next 15 or 20 years following the certainty of the results of his 'electoral reform. Most Dear Leaders For Life have to kill some people or at least strongarm them into changing the constitution, He has found an easy way with just a haircut and sunny ways, the actual paperwork is minimal.

.

Edited February 5, 2016 by overthere

[cybercoma]

I'm telling you this, after sweeping the Atlantic provinces, you can be damn sure Trudeau will put Coderre in his place. Denis knows it's a foregone conclusion. He just needs to look tough. They'll find a solution that lets the pipes go ahead and allows Denis to save face. Perhaps a big fat infrastructure cheque for Montreal will shut him up.

[kimmy]

The old NEP will just look better and better the father it falls behind us.

Oil would have had to become cheaper than seawater before Alberta stood to benefit from the "cushioning" part of the NEP formula.

-k

[kimmy]

I came across this cartoon recently and I laughed out loud. It's perfect, not because of its intended message, but because it is the perfect caricature of western alienation. And let's be clear, when we say western alienation, we really mean Alberta with support from Saskatchewan and the oil producing parts of BC. (We who are truly on the west part of Canada probably have less in common with Alberta than with the maritime provinces).

This seems like an odd time to bring up western alienation... as a political factor, I don't think western alienation been at a lower ebb in my lifetime.

The reality is that Alberta and Saskatchewan, with their gold-rush mentality on shipping raw commodities as fast as possible, put Canada in this vulnerable state by artificially inflating the dollar and tilting the economy towards less skilled. more volatile economic pursuits. Meanwhile, Ontario, Quebec, BC and the other provinces, with their more diversified and sustainable economies, are now providing a stabilizing influence.

Do you really believe that a group of politicians just sit down at a table and declare "this shall be a Resource Economy!" or "this shall be a Manufacturing Economy!" and it becomes so? Unless you're in China, politicians don't sit down and draw up a Five Year Plan as to what goods and services their constituents will produce, or, more to the point, what customers around the world will buy from their constituents. We're always grateful to have products and services that customers around the world need, whatever industry they may be in. And while you feel that the high dollar is to blame for the collapse of manufacturing in Ontario and Quebec, I'm not convinced that the dollar is the biggest factor in that. We could also look to globalization and extremely cheap labor and shoddy environmental practices in other countries where costs of production would be lower whatever the Canadian dollar exchange rate were.

The rest of Canada has done very well for a very long time by money generated by the western Canada energy industry. And it will do so again.

-k

[poochy]

This seems like an odd time to bring up western alienation... as a political factor, I don't think western alienation been at a lower ebb in my lifetime.

Do you really believe that a group of politicians just sit down at a table and declare "this shall be a Resource Economy!" or "this shall be a Manufacturing Economy!" and it becomes so? Unless you're in China, politicians don't sit down and draw up a Five Year Plan as to what goods and services their constituents will produce, or, more to the point, what customers around the world will buy from their constituents. We're always grateful to have products and services that customers around the world need, whatever industry they may be in. And while you feel that the high dollar is to blame for the collapse of manufacturing in Ontario and Quebec, I'm not convinced that the dollar is the biggest factor in that. We could also look to globalization and extremely cheap labor and shoddy environmental practices in other countries where costs of production would be lower whatever the Canadian dollar exchange rate were.

The rest of Canada has done very well for a very long time by money generated by the western Canada energy industry. And it will do so again.

-k

Crusaders for a cause, most of the arguments made are at best tangential to their true aims. Making most of it completely disingenuous. This, from the first post is all you need to know about the entire thread

"this is the image they have when Alberta is selflessly trying to build a pipeline to pump their toxic sludge across Canada"

We give to much oxygen, in the form of replies, to these peoples opinions.

[On Guard for Thee]

We give to much oxygen, in the form of replies, to these peoples opinions.

Who's we?

[ReeferMadness]

This seems like an odd time to bring up western alienation... as a political factor, I don't think western alienation been at a lower ebb in my lifetime.

When I hear western premiers issue thinly veiled threats to Montreal mayors who object to their communities being used as a conduit for toxic sludge, I can't help but think of western alienation. Again, this "western" alienation has always been mostly about Alberta.

Do you really believe that a group of politicians just sit down at a table and declare "this shall be a Resource Economy!" or "this shall be a Manufacturing Economy!" and it becomes so?

No. I think that every advanced economy has gotten that way with deliberate policies, support and protection of their governments. I think that Canada is lagging behind in developing an innovation economy because the governments are stuck in a 19th century mentality. And one of the people behind Canada's biggest ever technology success story agrees with me.

Unless you're in China, politicians don't sit down and draw up a Five Year Plan as to what goods and services their constituents will produce, or, more to the point, what customers around the world will buy from their constituents.

China didn't get 2 digit rates of growth by opening the economy and hoping for the best. Neither did Korea. Or Japan. Or the USA. Or anybody. It just became fashionable during the Harper years to pretend that all of the oil dollars rolling in were somehow a result of Harper's superior economic management.

In fact, what was happening was a huge giveaway to multinational oil companies and governments betting the farm on a single volatile commodity.

And while you feel that the high dollar is to blame for the collapse of manufacturing in Ontario and Quebec, I'm not convinced that the dollar is the biggest factor in that.

I posted a link that showed other industries are already rebounding. In part that's the dollar and in part its US demand.

We could also look to globalization and extremely cheap labor and shoddy environmental practices in other countries where costs of production would be lower whatever the Canadian dollar exchange rate were.

Manufacturing may rely on cheap labor (today anyway) but innovation does not. Go and check out the Balsillie link above.

The rest of Canada has done very well for a very long time by money generated by the western Canada energy industry. And it will do so again.

That remains to be seen. I heard T Boone Pickens say today that there are thousands of wells that have already been drilled and are just waiting to be fracked. The price of oil could stay low for years to come.

Regardless, one thing is undeniable. The petroleum age won't last forever. And when it ends, the longer we stay addicted to it, the hard it will be when we have to move on to something else.

[ReeferMadness]

Crusaders for a cause, most of the arguments made are at best tangential to their true aims. Making most of it completely disingenuous. This, from the first post is all you need to know about the entire thread

"this is the image they have when Alberta is selflessly trying to build a pipeline to pump their toxic sludge across Canada"

We give to much oxygen, in the form of replies, to these peoples opinions.

"true aims"?? "these people"??

Do you have something to say?

[overthere]

When I hear western premiers issue thinly veiled threats to Montreal mayors who object to their communities being used as a conduit for toxic sludge, I can't help but think of western alienation. Again, this "western" alienation has always been mostly about Alberta.

No. I think that every advanced economy has gotten that way with deliberate policies, support and protection of their governments. I think that Canada is lagging behind in developing an innovation economy because the governments are stuck in a 19th century mentality. And one of the people behind Canada's biggest ever technology success story agrees with me.

China didn't get 2 digit rates of growth by opening the economy and hoping for the best. Neither did Korea. Or Japan. Or the USA. Or anybody. It just became fashionable during the Harper years to pretend that all of the oil dollars rolling in were somehow a result of Harper's superior economic management.

In fact, what was happening was a huge giveaway to multinational oil companies and governments betting the farm on a single volatile commodity.

I posted a link that showed other industries are already rebounding. In part that's the dollar and in part its US demand.

Manufacturing may rely on cheap labor (today anyway) but innovation does not. Go and check out the Balsillie link above.

That remains to be seen. I heard T Boone Pickens say today that there are thousands of wells that have already been drilled and are just waiting to be fracked. The price of oil could stay low for years to come.

Regardless, one thing is undeniable. The petroleum age won't last forever. And when it ends, the longer we stay addicted to it, the hard it will be when we have to move on to something else.

Try as you might ,and work as hard as you will- set that strawman of Western alienation up over and over and knock it down over and over.... still doesn't make it true.

So sorry to not be your willing punching bag.

Try again.

Harder.

[Big Guy]

I think that the real question is should the problems in Alberta in the tar sands be treated like the fisheries in the East or like the auto industry during the recession.

When the fisheries started to run out of fish the government at the time, assuming that it would not come back, applied policies to encourage people to move or train for other jobs.

In the auto industry, the government of the time, assuming that there would always be a need for cars and the industry would soon be back, spent a lot of money on purchasing shares. They then got that money back selling those shares once the recession ended.

Personally, I am not optimistic about the tar sands. It costs the companies $44 a barrel to extract the oil. With oil prices staying at $30, The tar sands may be history - like the gold mines in the past. Iran has yet to put their 500,000 barrels a year into the market and Saudi oil costs $7 a barrel to get out of the ground - they are still making good money at this time. The USA is still sitting on millions of barrels in reserve and fracking has made the USA oil independent.

Why should the price of oil go to $50 a barrel or more?

Edited February 6, 2016 by Big Guy

[eyeball]

I think that the real question is should the problems in Alberta in the tar sands be treated like the fisheries in the East or like the auto industry during the recession.

When the fisheries started to run out of fish the government at the time, assuming that it would not come back, applied policies to encourage people to move or train for other jobs.

Oh man, I sure wish Ottawa had treated Alberta's oil like it treats BC's fisheries, nothing would have lead to western separation faster and BC would be in charge of it's own fisheries. Alaska has done alright with it's fisheries and it's mostly because its in charge of them. As it is in Canada, Ottawa is 1500 miles from the nearest ocean and it really shows in its Destruction of Fisheries and Oceans.

I have no issues whatsoever with western alienation or separation. If an asteroid fell on Ottawa tomorrow I'd be out ululating and yelling bulls-eye in the street.

Edited February 7, 2016 by eyeball

[Special Delivery]

Kudos OP. This proves that a picture can indeed be worth 1,000 words!

[Queenmandy85]

Why not hold on to our oil until the rest of the world has run out and they are willing to pay anything for it? In the mean time, we should be switching to nuclear power. Western Canada is the Saudi Arabia of nuclear power and it produces no green house gases except in the making of the steel.

[69cat]

Why not indeed build nuclear here in Sask. I am in Regina and ask the same thing. The obviuos answer being "its just bad". The paper attached in this AGW denial petition has a good argument for nuclear in the last few pages. Once AGW is finally admitted to be a hoax to grab tax payer money and fossil fuels start being used with no limitations i expect nuclear to gain support again.

http://petitionproject.org

[Queenmandy85]

The political difficulty anticipated in a switch to nuclear power is an illustration of the failure in the education system. If we start converting power generation to nuclear, electrify the transportation system, build small regional nuclear power plants around the country and around the world, for that matter, we will truly place Canada, particularly western Canada, in a powerful economic position. When the rest of the world has run out of coal and oil, what do you think our coal and oil will be worth?

You cannot maintain an industrial civilization without coal, oil and iron. So why waste it by burning it to generate power or move goods and people?

Edited February 7, 2016 by Queenmandy85

[bush_cheney2004]

Western Canada...heck...all of Canada... is already behind on new nuclear power plant construction. Save the oil and sell the uranium fuel cycle for these new reactors:

[ReeferMadness]

Oh man, I sure wish Ottawa had treated Alberta's oil like it treats BC's fisheries, nothing would have lead to western separation faster and BC would be in charge of it's own fisheries. Alaska has done alright with it's fisheries and it's mostly because its in charge of them. As it is in Canada, Ottawa is 1500 miles from the nearest ocean and it really shows in its Destruction of Fisheries and Oceans.

I have no issues whatsoever with western alienation or separation. If an asteroid fell on Ottawa tomorrow I'd be out ululating and yelling bulls-eye in the street.

Damn. You sound exactly like Rafe Mair!

[eyeball]

You cannot maintain an industrial civilization without coal, oil and iron. So why waste it by burning it to generate power or move goods and people?

That's a no-brainer. Because there's nothing that works better at making a few well positioned people extremely wealthy and powerful.

I mean c'mon man, get your priorities straight.

[overthere]

if you consider $700 million 'a few crumbs'... just what would you like to see to help Alberta/Albertans in relative immediacy? Do you have a quote/cite for your described vocal support "not to long ago"... it would be interesting to recognize how it might be different for the qualified support being offered "of late" - yes? Reading that Harper period announcement you speak to would be informative too!

.

Get the pipleines underway. Now. At no cost to taxpayers. Support the economy that exists in reality, not the one he hopes to create by speaking of diverse and resourceful people.

Then there would be no need for Trudeau to offer the pathetic crumb of tossing us a few dollars of the taxes we already gave him, back to us. We don't need Daddy to give us part of our allowance back. Please sir, may I have more???

[waldo]

Get the pipleines underway. Now. At no cost to taxpayers. Support the economy that exists in reality, not the one he hopes to create by speaking of diverse and resourceful people.

Then there would be no need for Trudeau to offer the pathetic crumb of tossing us a few dollars of the taxes we already gave him, back to us. We don't need Daddy to give us part of our allowance back. Please sir, may I have more???

your preferred 'Daddy' had a decade... and didn't git-er-done... not a single new profiled pipeline under Harper. Clearly, Harper's preferred "enemies of the state" approach didn't work - won't work. Proper regulatory oversight... you know, towards "winning the hearts and minds" - wadda concept!

.