Energy East Causing Uproar

[taxme]

The question is oil or renewable energy.

Try to keep up with the technology, eh?!

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Until that technology is developed and used, then it will be oil for now.

[Pateris]

The question is oil or renewable energy.

Try to keep up with the technology, eh?!

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But since "renewable energy" is not stable, scalable or economically viable, oil is must be!

[dre]

No...a toxic sludge is a waste product, something that is not useful. Correct me if I'm wrong but you use the products in that substance you are calling 'toxic sludge".

Of course you glossed over the major point...if this stuff is toxic sludge then that must make the Liberal Premier from Ontario an anti-environment type since she approves this going through their back yard. How do you think Trudeau is going to deal with his provincial cohort now approving this toxic sludge.

Well sludge is a "semi-solid slurry". Toxic is toxic. So the term fits unrefined dilbit very accurately.

In any case thats too bad. This was the one pipeline idea that actually made a bit of sense.

Edited August 15, 2016 by dre

[jacee]

But since "renewable energy" is not stable, scalable or economically viable, oil is must be!

Obviously it's some of both, increasing renewables and decreasing fossil fuels.

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Edited August 15, 2016 by jacee

[ironstone]

The question is oil or renewable energy.

Try to keep up with the technology, eh?!

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The problem with so called renewables is that they CANNOT produce energy on demand at this time.Or have I missed something?

I'm not saying there is no role for solar or wind turbines at all,but we can't completely depend on them for all of our needs.

[Pateris]

Well sludge is a "semi-solid slurry". Toxic is toxic. So the term fits unrefined dilbit very accurately.

In any case thats too bad. This was the one pipeline idea that actually made a bit of sense.

Diluted bitumen is not a semi-solid slurry. It is a liquid. It is diluted so it is a pumpable liquid at ground temperature. Without the diluent (which is basically unrefined gasoline) it would be nearly solid at these temperatures. A filter placed in diluted bitumen does not collect the bitumen - it might collect a little sand (crude oil is allowed to contain up to 0.5% water and solids - and that is ALL crude oil).

As for toxicity... well, bitumen contains a number of chemical species that are toxic. But so do gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel, mineral spirits, charred meat, fried potatoes and the pits of apricots. We are surrounded by toxic chemicals all the time. Diluted Bitumen is no more toxic than other crude oils. Bitumen has been naturally leaking into the Athabasca river for millennia, just as crude oil leaks into the Gulf of Mexico from natural seeps on the sea floor. And the world survives.

[dre]

The problem with so called renewables is that they CANNOT produce energy on demand at this time.Or have I missed something?

I'm not saying there is no role for solar or wind turbines at all,but we can't completely depend on them for all of our needs.

Yeah you missed the invention of the Battery.

You can make an On Demand solar system for 25k that could power most of the worlds homes without even being connected to the grid.

Heres a 700 KWH system that includes the solar panels.

http://www.wholesale...id-solar-system

16 000 dollars

Store the power in this.. that will hold 2 to 3 days worth of power.

http://www.wholesale...16-battery-bank

5000 dollars

Back it up with this... That's an 11k diesel backup that automatically comes on when your reserves get below a certain point.

That's 4000 dollars.

That's reliable off the grid power for 25k. I did two of these installations in homes along a lake near here and they worked great, but it was about 10 years ago and they were extremely expensive. But its getting cheap now and costs are still dropping very quickly. There are hundreds of millions of homes in the world that are in sunny enough locations so that the diesel backup would never have to come on. Most low rise buildings in the world could be run this way.

But if its not sunny where you live for part of the year, you can add a few of these... 3 of them would cost about 25 hundred dollars.

http://www.wholesale...2v-1-ar40-10-12

[jacee]

Solar paint, solar roads/driveways, solar shingles ... it's getting much simpler and cheaper all the time.

new-paint-additive-turns-any-surface-into-a-solar-panel/

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[jacee]

The problem with so called renewables is that they CANNOT produce energy on demand at this time.Or have I missed something?

I'm not saying there is no role for solar or wind turbines at all,but we can't completely depend on them for all of our needs.

We can scale them up and scale fossil fuels down.

Albertans get that:

/albertas-solar-power-sector-cant-keep-up-with-demand-for-training-courses

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[Bonam]

Yeah you missed the invention of the Battery.

You can make an On Demand solar system for 25k that could power most of the worlds homes without even being connected to the grid.

...

This advice applies to what, 0.1% of the population if that? How many people have an estate with the needed land area and autonomy for wind farms, solar arrays, battery banks, and diesel generator backups? The vast majority of people in cities are prohibited from installing wind turbines on their properties. And even solar panels are banned in many townhouse complexes, neighborhoods, community associations, etc. Furthermore, when it comes to low rise buildings, the roof area is often already mostly utilized for various existing systems or amenities.

I'm all for renewables but the advice contained in this quoted post is really only applicable to a tiny minority of extremely affluent households with large rural lots or sometimes suburban residential lots.

[dre]

This advice applies to what, 0.1% of the population if that? How many people have an estate with the needed land area and autonomy for wind farms, solar arrays, battery banks, and diesel generator backups?

You don't need an estate. All this stuff can fit easily on quarter acre city lot. The panels will fit on the roof of just about any low rise building. This applies to most of the residential lowrise structures on the planet. Its probably more like 50% of the population.

when it comes to low rise buildings, the roof area is often already mostly utilized for various existing systems or amenities.

What? Most roofs have a three inch vent stack and a few roof vents and maybe a chimney. Here's what a typical installation would look like.

https://enerdynamics.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/tile-roofed-home-with-solar-panels.jpg

I'm all for renewables but the advice contained in this quoted post is really only applicable to a tiny minority of extremely affluent households with large rural lots or sometimes suburban residential lots.

You dont need a large lot, and you dont need to be affluent, never mind "extremely affluent"

[TimG]

You don't need an estate. All this stuff can fit easily on quarter acre city lot.

1/4 acre? That is 10,000 sqft. There are very few lots that size in metro Vancouver (if the few that exist are will eventually be bought and subdivided). If you actually do the math based on the number of solar panels on south facing roofs needed to go off-grid you would find a small fraction of the detached homes in metro Vancouver would have sufficient roof space (you would need double what you show in that picture because of the lower number of sunshine hours). And those that do require $2 million or more to buy which, by my definition, is "extremely affluent".

Another factor that has to be considered is development. Just because you have a south facing roof today that is no guarantee that you will forever have exposure because new buildings are built all of the time.

Edited August 17, 2016 by TimG

[Bonam]

You dont need a large lot, and you dont need to be affluent, never mind "extremely affluent"

Yeah that gigantic house and lot in the photo in your post would cost what, $5 million in Vancouver, or $2 million here in Seattle. Certainly over $1 million in any place I've ever lived. Yes, when it comes to cities with prosperous economies where people might have the capital to actually invest $25k, your suggestions are for the extremely affluent only. And even for the house in the photo, chances are no wind power would be allowed there.

In rural areas, sure. But only a small and diminishing portion of the population lives in rural areas, and moreover rural dwellers are less likely to have the capital on hand to invest $25k in power infrastructure.

Furthermore, all the research I've seen done on the subject suggests that major efficiencies can be gained through centralized power production, even with wind and solar. You can hire a person or build an automated system to keep your solar panels perfectly clean and dust free, whereas how often will an individual homeowner wash the solar panels on their roof? Even a small amount of dirt on a solar array can diminish its output significantly. Also, larger centralized projects allow the use of solar concentrator panels, which are impractical for personal home use but attain much higher efficiency in converting light to electricity.

Money would be far more wisely spent by building large solar farms where the sun shines the most, building large wind farms where the wind blows the most, building efficient long distance power distribution infrastructure, and building pumped hydro storage where the topography is suited for it. The efficiency will be far better than what a tiny minority of individual homeowners might cobble together.

[Bonam]

1/4 acre? That is 10,000 sqft. There are very few lots that size in metro Vancouver (if the few that exist are will eventually be bought and subdivided).

Indeed, a "standard" residential lot is 5,000 sq ft, and even these are fast becoming a thing of the past as stacks of 3-6 townhouses/rowhouses are built on such lots in cities which are experiencing growth. And people in stagnant cities where large lots linger aren't gonna be investing in expensive new systems.

[Bonam]

What? Most roofs have a three inch vent stack and a few roof vents and maybe a chimney. Here's what a typical installation would look like.

I was talking about roofs of "low rise" buildings (i.e. apartments/condos, not SFHs). For example, a roof covered in systems:

Or a roof covered in amenities:

[dre]

I was talking about roofs of "low rise" buildings (i.e. apartments/condos, not SFHs). For example, a roof covered in systems:

Or a roof covered in amenities:

Neither of those are low rise buildings

[Bonam]

Neither of those are low rise buildings

Sure they are, or could be. Anything below like 10-12 stories is a low rise. And those are just the first two random images I pulled off google to illustrate. The point is when you look at apartment/condo buildings, the roofs are often (not always, of course) mostly used in various ways already.

[WestCoastRunner]

A great project here in Vancouver: BC's First Commuinity Owned Solar Energy Project

http://vancouvercohousing.com/2016/04/05/bcs-first-community-owned-solar-energy-project/

[dre]

Yeah that gigantic house and lot in the photo in your post would cost what, $5 million in Vancouver, or $2 million here in Seattle. Certainly over $1 million in any place I've ever lived. Yes, when it comes to cities with prosperous economies where people might have the capital to actually invest $25k, your suggestions are for the extremely affluent only. And even for the house in the photo, chances are no wind power would be allowed there.

In rural areas, sure. But only a small and diminishing portion of the population lives in rural areas, and moreover rural dwellers are less likely to have the capital on hand to invest $25k in power infrastructure.

Furthermore, all the research I've seen done on the subject suggests that major efficiencies can be gained through centralized power production, even with wind and solar. You can hire a person or build an automated system to keep your solar panels perfectly clean and dust free, whereas how often will an individual homeowner wash the solar panels on their roof? Even a small amount of dirt on a solar array can diminish its output significantly. Also, larger centralized projects allow the use of solar concentrator panels, which are impractical for personal home use but attain much higher efficiency in converting light to electricity.

Money would be far more wisely spent by building large solar farms where the sun shines the most, building large wind farms where the wind blows the most, building efficient long distance power distribution infrastructure, and building pumped hydro storage where the topography is suited for it. The efficiency will be far better than what a tiny minority of individual homeowners might cobble together.

You don't need a big home. Solar systems like the one I speced out could run on ANY lowrise building.

Furthermore, all the research I've seen done on the subject suggests that major efficiencies can be gained through centralized power production, even with wind and solar. You can hire a person or build an automated system to keep your solar panels perfectly clean and dust free, whereas how often will an individual homeowner wash the solar panels on their roof? Even a small amount of dirt on a solar array can diminish its output significantly. Also, larger centralized projects allow the use of solar concentrator panels, which are impractical for personal home use but attain much higher efficiency in converting light to electricity.

I dont see why there would be huge increases in efficiency with solar due to centralization. A solar panel makes the same amount of power whether its on a farm or not.

And centralized model requires a grid, and the grid itself is phenomenally expensive.

Lets say you had to build the US grid today... A single mile of 69kv overhead line costs 285 thousand to install. There's 283 thousand miles of these intermediate lines in the US. Then you have thousands more of long haul lines that cost about 3 times as much to install. Underground 69kv lines cost 2 million per mile, and there's thousands of them as well.

So to build the US grid (and we are ONLY including transition lines, not the rest of the infrastructure) would cost almost 300 TRILLION dollars. And that's before a single generator stations has been built.

So IF you were starting from scratch, and you wanted each building to power itself instead and have no grid at all, you would have about in the neighborhood of 100 000 dollars in your budget to set up generation and storage per building. More than enough for low rise residential buildings and homes, and some commercial building.

But there's another cost factor as well... And that is the huge costs of managing and maintaining a wide area grid after its been built, and funding grid authorities, load distribution centers etc. There's thousands and thousands of vans and trucks with man- lifts driving around all the time full of guys that make 80k or more per year, and thousands of dollars worth of equipment.

And then there's the real-estate taken up by all this. Most of which is provided by the public because IPP's could never afford to purchase enough roadside to get lines to all the homes.

In a lot of places we are very close to mass migration away from grid power... Here's a graph from an investment bank, from a study done In Australia. If pricing trends continue then grid power in Australia will cost about 9 times as much as off-grid power by 2034.

In places like Canada I don't think you'll see anything happen soon. Grid power would have to get up to about 20 or 20 cents before people start fleeing the grid in large numbers.

You can hire a person or build an automated system to keep your solar panels perfectly clean and dust free, whereas how often will an individual homeowner wash the solar panels on their roof? Even a small amount of dirt on a solar array can diminish its output significantly.

Yup that's a good point... Solar panels need to be kept free of debris and snow. Some people would do it themselves but private businesses will spring up to meet the demand of people that don't want to do it, or cant. There's also the hassle of keeping the diesel backup fueled if you live in an area where it comes on.

[TimG]

A great project here in Vancouver:

What is so great about it? It seems to prove how woefully impractical local solar installations are. In this case, we have 90 panels producing 25,000kWh per per year and take up a large portion of the roof space of a large building yet the installation only produces enough power for 3-4 of the 31 units in the building (assuming no EVs).

Seems like a lot of money to spend for a 10% reduction in power consumption.

Edited August 17, 2016 by TimG

[Michael Hardner]

TImG - just asking for clarity if you have sources that you go to for energy efficiency measure for the various methods ?

[dre]

Sure they are, or could be. Anything below like 10-12 stories is a low rise. And those are just the first two random images I pulled off google to illustrate. The point is when you look at apartment/condo buildings, the roofs are often (not always, of course) mostly used in various ways already.

OK that's just miscommunication. I don't think rooftop solar can provide 100% of the power in apartment buildings. Especially not ones with wide bases. Some high-rise buildings CAN be solar powered though.

When I said low rise buildings i was thinking 1-3 stories.

Like these...

Or these...

There's hundreds of millions of buildings like that around the world.

[TimG]

TImG - just asking for clarity if you have sources that you go to for energy efficiency measure for the various methods ?

Not sure what you are asking. I took the numbers from the previous link and calculated based on daily consumption of 15-20kWh per household per day (which is my personal consumption).

[TimG]

There's hundreds of millions of buildings like that around the world.

You are wrong to assume those buildings have enough space for 'off-grid' solar installations. Especially in northern latitudes because the space required increases as the latitude increases. As I mentioned above, only a small percentage of detached homes have enough space that can be re-purposed for solar panels used for 'off-grid' operation. Edited August 17, 2016 by TimG

[?Impact]

based on daily consumption of 15-20kWh per household per day (which is my personal consumption).

I am 7.5 kWh/day