Islamophobia in Canada

[Rue]

You tell us, since you're the expert on Muslims. If I didn't know any better, I would think you are Muslim with your great insights into their culture.

You in the past stated to me in other threads it was not relevant if you were Muslim and claimed it was a personal attack to ask you. So why do you do it? What does your personal attack have to do with the thread subject?

Edited January 9, 2016 by Rue

[BC_chick]

It's worth noting that most Western countries have criminalized such actions even when they take place in foreign countries. Meanwhile, no Muslim country has a specialist child sexual abuse group as part of their police forces, and investigations, let alone convictions for child sexual abuse or child abuse of any kind are vanishingly rare.

For that matter, I don't believe any Muslim country has a specialist sexual assault unit of any kind as part of any of its police forces either. Sexual assaults, while technically highly illegal, are rarely reported due to the overwhelming prejudice against victims both by society and in Muslim law, and the fact that under Sharia, an accusation requires either a confession from the rapist, or the testimony of four men in order to draw a conviction. What a woman says alone is of no value.

Yeah, they should follow the footsteps of non-Muslim Thailand. Turning a blind eye to sexual abuse of children is such a Muslim thing.

[kimmy]

You in the past stated to me in other threads it was not relevant if you were Muslim and claimed it was a personal attack to ask you. So why do you do it? What does your personal attack have to do with the thread subject?

I don't think Hudson is making a personal attack, I think he's disputing PIK's amount of insight into what Muslims really believe.

-k

[kimmy]

Yeah, they should follow the footsteps of non-Muslim Thailand. Turning a blind eye to sexual abuse of children is such a Muslim thing.

Pointing out that non-Muslim Thailand (as well as numerous other non-Muslim nations, like India and much of Africa for that matter) has a shoddy record on sexual abuse doesn't refute the point that most of the Muslim world does too.

-k

[eyeball]

Yeah, they should follow the footsteps of non-Muslim Thailand. Turning a blind eye to sexual abuse of children is such a Muslim thing.

It's a Coalition thing too according to reports of kid's being routinely abused by our allies in Afghanistan.

Don't ask, don't tell is not just a policy our troops are expected to follow it's a diplomatic mindset that applies to our dealing with warlords and dictators we ally ourselves with on the global stage. Don't ask don't tell has also applied where there are questions about human rights abuses being committed against everyone.

The government likes to claim it is asking but it's not telling. Trudeau for example isn't releasing the report on Saudi Arabia's human rights record and intentions for the armoured assault vehicles we're planning on supplying to one of the worst dictatorships on the planet.

[BC_chick]

Pointing out that non-Muslim Thailand (as well as numerous other non-Muslim nations, like India and much of Africa for that matter) has a shoddy record on sexual abuse doesn't refute the point that most of the Muslim world does too.

-k

I never implied that it did. The point is that it's not a Muslim thing.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Don't ask, don't tell is not just a policy our troops are expected to follow it's a diplomatic mindset that applies to our dealing with warlords and dictators we ally ourselves with on the global stage. Don't ask don't tell has also applied where there are questions about human rights abuses being committed against everyone.

That's true even in Canada (for native born and emigres), so I am not convinced there is such a wide margin of separation, perhaps just a matter of degree. A strong case can be been made to demonstrate widespread sexual abuse in Muslim nations, but the same could/can be made for the "West".

So called Islamophobia can drive such biased "analysis" like this, from Denmark:

http://10news.dk/?p=553

[bush_cheney2004]

I never implied that it did. The point is that it's not a Muslim thing.

I agree...it most certainly is not only a Muslim thing.

[Rue]

Discussing rape or sex assault crimes involving Muskims in Europe has no doubt fueled Islamophobia. It provides a pretext to suggest ALL Muslims or all Muslim immigrants are bad.

I say it is important to speak about sex crimes within the Muslim community not to justify hating Muslims, but to help get into the open the minority of Musims committing these crimes and dealing with it, so that not just non Muslims but innocent Muslims are not blamed for it.

I am now going to discuss some statistics but not to blame Muslims but to discuss a phenomena in an intelligent and calm manner. To do that though will require more than a two sentence name calling response. If you don't want to read it don't.

I preface my remarks with a direct response to Argus. No Argus Muslim countries so not have sex crimes investigation units or special victims units. Specialized sex crimes investigation units are a phenomena you find in Western nation countries and the US and Canada and only in the larger cities with sufficient funding to specialize. In the vast majority of nations sex crimes are simply investigated by a police officer with no training.

In sharia law nations, rape is not really defined as a crime. In fact a woman reporting it would be more likely to be accused and sentenced for sex outside marriage if she reported a rape. In most sharia law nations, its considered a trespass on property. You have to remember in most sharia law nations, women are property, they are not considered equal to men. They are still back where we were in Canada back in the early 1900's where women were property of men.

So its impossible to get true statistical analysis because most rapes are not reported or if they are they are not dealt with as rape. What we do know is pedophile rape and rape against women are widespread. We also know in most sharia law nations its illegal to be gay so you can't report gay rape.

So the stats we do have emerging are from Muslims in Europe and I stress again they are not definitive and should not be used to hate Muslims or blame all Muslims but we have to talk about them, for example:

In Denmark, statistics show that individuals from Muslim countries make up eight of the top nine places on the list for criminals;2012 figures show that Somalis were sentenced for crimes, including innumerable sexual assaults, almost ten times more often according to official statistics, despite the fact that immigrants and their descendants account for less than 10 per cent of the population; “Iraqis, Iranians, Turks and Somalis are dramatically overrepresented among convicted rapists

source: http://www.infowars.com/feminists-mute-on-muslim-rape-epidemic-sweeping-europe/

In Norway, police statistics show that in the capital city of Oslo, 100 percent of assault rapes between strangers were committed by immigrant, non-Western males; nine out of 10 of their victims were native Norwegian women

source: http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2011/august/culture-crisis-norway-tackles-muslim-immigration-/?mobile=false

In Sweden, it now is said to have second highest number of rapes in the world, after South Africa, at a rate of 53.2 per 100,000 which is a rate six times higher than the United States; 1 out of every 4 Swedish women will be raped...Sweden has imported huge numbers of Muslim immigrants with catastrophic effect.......Muslims represented as high as 77 percent of the rape case perpetrator; a major increase in rape cases coincided with a major increase in Muslim immigration; in Stockholm this summer there was an average of 5 rapes a day keeping in mind Stockholm has evolved to a city that is one-third immigrant and is between a fifth and a quarter Muslim

source: http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/175434/1-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-sexual-assaults-daniel-greenfield

In the United Kingdom, in the year 2012, it emerged that over a thousand mostly white young girls in the northern England town of Rotherham were systematically groomed, trafficked, beaten and sexually abused by rape gangs consisting of mainly Pakistani Muslim men

The local Labour government council and the police covered up this horror because they were afraid of being characterized as racist or politically incorrect."

source: http://www.infowars.com/feminists-mute-on-muslim-rape-epidemic-sweeping-europe/

cont. next post

[Rue]

I don't think Hudson is making a personal attack, I think he's disputing PIK's amount of insight into what Muslims really believe.

-k

No of course you don't. He worded it as a personal attack. Had he worded it as you did I would not have spoke up and I thank you for not engaging in that kind of approach. I debate you hard and you do not engage in such language. Thank you.

[Rue]

I want to finish my earlier post. We can't hide the fact that Muslim men who are immigrants or refugees or born in Europe like other men are raping women. If it helps us establish patterns to better understand what's fueling it we must discuss it. I do not suggest it should be used to hate Muslims or blame Muslims. Its not a reason to hate refugees, immigrants, Muslims. This accusation of rape, its very close if not similar to the kinds of accusations used against black men in the Southern US to justify lynching them.

Its fueling hatred of Muslims and that is not going to help a damn thing.

What we need to use it for, is to help progressive Muslims and specially women Muslims and Muslim children rights activists to unite with the rest of us to fight rape or sex crimes. They should be able to turn to us. I support progressive Muslims and especially their feminist movement trying o shed light on the rape phenomena and wide spread practices of marrying young girls, raping boys.

This will make Muslims stronger not weaker. We have to work with them. That is why I am discussing it.

So that said I think we need to openly challenge certain concepts of Muslim religion just like we have confronted in the past Judaism and Christianity when religious clergy from both movements justified their behaviour using the religion as the pretext.

In Sharia law, let's ne clear, rape is not considered sex. That is a false myth bein spread. It is also a false myth to say rape is not considered " zina " or in our language- adultery. Those are myths. It is in fact defined as "ightisab" , i.e., taking something by force, but what is taken is not the woman's right to control her own body, as much as it is a property right of her husband or father. The concept of a woman being an individual whose rights flow from herself and her own identity are not the same as in Western laws, not yet.

That said in the “Fiqh-us-Sunnah” (slamic legal book) rape is included in the definition of hiraba (terrorism or crimes of violence).

The problem though is Islam is run by men. Men dominate it. There are no women clergy and so they have taken Muslim and reinterpreted it at this time, to define rape not as I said above but as adultery and Muslim courts demand therefore 4 witnesses to be produced to prove rape when the 4 witness requirement is in fact only required to prove adultery.

They in fact misappropriate this rule from the Koran and apply it to rape:

“Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women – bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way.” Koran verse (4:15)

Its because of this wide spread reinterpretation of rape in Muslim countries you just don't see that many being convicted of it let alone charged with it.

Its more likely the woman will be accuse of adultery not being raped if she says she had intercourse outsideher marriage even if she tries to then say it was unwelcomed.

There have been cases where with some rapes proven-men have been lashed or put to death but when you look through sharia law nations you just don't see the rape statistics because of the above reasons.

Now this does not explain what is happening in Europe. It also does not make Muslims evil. It means their religion is right now dominated by men who have views as to sex skewed by their belief as to women and their own religion just as our laws as recently as the 60's made proving rape very problematic.

[Rue]

Finally, and to discuss this topic no you can't do it in one line. Sex assault or rape has many sub-types. Its not all the same.

The kind of rape phenomena now being seen in Europe with migrans or refugees is NOT the same as say within families.

It is a sub-type of rape that arises among refugees, migrants, displaced people on the run. The rapists rape the migrants they come with along the way as well. Refugees are repeatedly raped in refugee camps. Along the way many children and single women among them are kidnapped and sold as sex slaves.

Thereis a UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, its Causes and Consequences that was set up to examine the phenomena.

It found for example tin 2010 after the Haiti earthquake, large numbers of women and girls living in Internally Displaced Persons camps experienced sexual violence.

Many of you are familiar with how after the floods in New Oreleans when many thousands were left stranded in the football stadium without help, rape broke out.

During war, or mass exodus when society breaks down and their are no restraints in place by society, the primal rape urge in men resurfaces.

When we function in society, that society is supposed to implement safeguards to assure we repress certain primal desires such as incest, rape, murder. Freud argued for a civil society to function it must serve as a repression agent of our primal tendencies and certainly organized religion wa sone of those institutions intended to control and repress sex desires.

Its not n accident in war, rape breaks out.

We are primates and thus engage in primal or primate behaviour and that means, living in packs with alpha males and when we break down into our packs, the young apes in the absence of an alpha male go on a sex spree. That is simply speaking one explanation for what we see-you men with no restraints able to get away with rape.

Now when they come to Europe some are arguing well their Islamic beliefs define non Muslim women as whores they can rape, etc.

I say that is just not right. Islam does not say that. Certain Islamic clergy in Europe have made very stupid comments calling Europeans sexually immoral and deserving of rape for not covering up but this does not reflect the majority of Muslims.

The majority of Muslims have daughters and young children-why would anyone think they condone raping them? Its not fair. It is fair to say however that the leaders of the Islamic community have to openly and honestly look at their comments, their beliefs as to sex, women and what is happening when their followers come to Europe. They have to be willing to understand the fact that in Europe women wear short skirts, are defined as equals, doe s not make them whores, etc.

Education as to the difference between old and new ways is needed. Young Muslim girls, Muslim gays and lesbians, they are really caght in a catch 22.

Young men also expected to conform to the old ways suddenly find themselves looking at women who are not covered and its being misconstrued.

These are real phenomena. We have to talk about them and not refuse to talk about them in the name of political propriety because they are not going away. The rape epidemic is fueling thousands of anti Muslim articles.

My effort was to show we can talk about it but say, its not a reason to hate Muslims, its a reason to work with them to protect them and us against idiots who rape.

Let's understand what fuels rape, expose it, and not punish innocent Muslims who are just as much victims of it as the rest of us.

That said, I fear its simply fueling a racist or anti Muslim uprising tat's already in motion across Europe and going to result in riots and exreme right wing leaders coming to power to place countries under martial law.

I see an era of martial law states coming not just to Europe but Canada and the US turning us into Russias and Chinas. I fear that.

Ironically Israel which has been faced with this very phenomena has survived it. It has laws that recognize Christian,, Jewish and Muslim clerical courts that deal with family law, but it also superimposes certain criminal and family laws on top of those of the clerical councils citizes can start with.

Its a hybrid system designed precisely because Zionism recognizes the religious rights of Christians and Muslim, unlike Sharia law states that define Jews and Christians and non Muslims as inferiors without the same rights.

Israel's system is not perfect. Islamic and Jewish religious council courts have covered up beatings but there is also a strong feminist movement in Israel consisting of both Muslim and Jewish women working together to try slowly bring modern concepts of womenhood to orthodox Jews and Muslims.

Europe is faced with a clash now between Muslim Eastern collective beliefs and their own. The beliefs today in Europe are a hybrid of Judeo-Christian values evolved to define women as equals. Muslim collective thought is far behind this, perhaps 500-1,000 years according to some anthropologsts and sexologists and that's probably not changing until the 60-80% illiteracy rate in the Muslim world changes. Without literacy, there is no ability to fodder critical thought yet. People still depend on their religious clerks to tell them how to think making them captive to prehistoric men with prehistoric beliefs I would argue. I make the same criticism of orthodox Jewish and Christian leaders as well. I think their views in sex, women, etc., are antiquated.

[GostHacked]

No of course you don't. He worded it as a personal attack. Had he worded it as you did I would not have spoke up and I thank you for not engaging in that kind of approach. I debate you hard and you do not engage in such language. Thank you.

There was no personal attack in the reply you are complaining about. But if you consider it a personal attack, then I suggest revisiting many of your posts in which similar language is used by you.

[Rue]

Yeah, they should follow the footsteps of non-Muslim Thailand. Turning a blind eye to sexual abuse of children is such a Muslim thing.

It is according to the United Nations, Human Rights Watch Amnesty International, etc. It is a problem in all societies but it is a Muslim thing as well and saying its a Muslim thing doesn't mean you need to defend Muslims. Its a human thing. Be secure enough not to panic just because you see it discussed as a phenomena in Muslim society and yes it is condoned in many Muslim counties openly much more so than in Europe.

We have numerous Canadian soldiers back from Afghanistan committing suicide because of witnessing boys and girls being rape d in Afghanistan and told to shut up and look the other way.

If you think the rape of boys and girls in Muslim society is not a problem and is not covered up by Muslim sharia law councils, go find out. It is. It doesn't mean I hate Muslims to say that-it means I care about Muslim children and women's rights to say that.

You so sure what he is saying is only meant to hate Muslims? The more you say that, the more you avoid the actual topic and make it easy to ignore it and just right him off as a bigot. He's not. You still don't get it. He's against poltically proper aholes afraid to call it what it is.

I hope you read my long stuff I am trying to help with this discussion to show it doesn't have to be anti Muslim. The problem is too many come on this forum and turn it into one line name calling because they want to simplify such a complex issue.

I say to you, Muslim women and children being raped are as important as anyone else and the word Muslim should not be used to prevent discussing their rights. People should not be able to use the accusation of racism to shield them from talking about what is going on the same reason we have criticized Christian and Jewish societies that are extremist.

I don't care what the religion or ethnic group of the victim is, but if their attackers are using their religion or ethnicity as a shield to prevent being held responsible for their crimes, I am arguing like Argus the sob's are going to be exposed and called out for what they are-cowards hiding behind their religion to excuse what they do, is exactly what they are and you should call me the same thing if I come on here and argue you are anti semitic or anti Christian because you say there are rape/sex crimes issues within the Chabad or Amish communities that are being hidden.

Argus and others have a right to speak out about the double standard,

[Rue]

There was no personal attack in the reply you are complaining about. But if you consider it a personal attack, then I suggest revisiting many of your posts in which similar language is used by you.

Oh hell that is exactly the point. He accused me of personal attacks for engaging in the same language. Exactly the point. He does not practice what he preaches. Do you?

[GostHacked]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pepper-spray-attack-1.3396899

At least here we are attacking them before they attack us ..

A crowd of refugees attending a welcome event at the Muslim Association of Canada Centre in Vancouver was pepper sprayed by an unknown man on a bicycle.

It happened outside the centre on the Kingsway near Victoria Drive around 10:30 p.m. as the event was winding down and the group of newcomers to Canada was waiting for a bus.

Welcome to Canada, want some pepper spray with that?

Edited January 9, 2016 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

Oh hell that is exactly the point. He accused me of personal attacks for engaging in the same language. Exactly the point. He does not practice what he preaches. Do you?

I do indeed practice what I 'preach'. I am very consistent in my posting and how it is worded.

[Argus]

Yeah, they should follow the footsteps of non-Muslim Thailand. Turning a blind eye to sexual abuse of children is such a Muslim thing.

It is a universal Muslim thing across the over 50 Muslim majority countries who are members of the Islamic Block.

[Argus]

Pointing out that non-Muslim Thailand (as well as numerous other non-Muslim nations, like India and much of Africa for that matter) has a shoddy record on sexual abuse doesn't refute the point that most of the Muslim world does too.

-k

A point of clarification... ALL of the Muslim world does.

[Argus]

I never implied that it did. The point is that it's not a Muslim thing.

Yes, it is. You're selecting out something entirely different, sex tourism, part of which involves children in several poorly managed southeast Asian countries, and using it to blithely dismiss the way the entire Muslim world ignores the issue of child sexual abuse, child physical abuse, and rape. You're also completely ignoring the fact this attitude stems, in part, from their religion, which clearly clearly opines that women are a lesser species, dictates that rape is only rape if four men testify to the fact, and which features a prophet whose men routinely took female prisoners (slaves) and raped them, and who himself took a 7 year old slave girl as his wife.

[eyeball]

It is a universal Muslim thing across the over 50 Muslim majority countries who are members of the Islamic Block.

It is a universal failing across the entire human species. There are even other animals that behave this way so we're not even that special.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yes, it is. You're selecting out something entirely different, sex tourism, part of which involves children in several poorly managed southeast Asian countries, and using it to blithely dismiss the way the entire Muslim world ignores the issue of child sexual abuse, child physical abuse, and rape. You're also completely ignoring the fact this attitude stems, in part, from their religion, which clearly clearly opines that women are a lesser species, dictates that rape is only rape if four men testify to the fact, and which features a prophet whose men routinely took female prisoners (slaves) and raped them, and who himself took a 7 year old slave girl as his wife.

So basically what you've said is white mans penchant for sex tourism doesn't stem from our religion. What's our excuse then?

[kimmy]

So basically what you've said is white mans penchant for sex tourism doesn't stem from our religion. What's our excuse then?

"our" excuse is the same as for every other race and culture... we can't catch every deviant, try as we might.

I don't understand the attempt to draw a parallel between isolated child predators and large groups of men forming spontaneously in public places to harass women. I think it's a disingenuous argument.

-k

[kimmy]

I think that recent events in Cologne and other European cities have demonstrated, quite graphically, that the concerns about the effects of mass migration from Muslim countries aren't unreasonable.

I also think these events have shown that the decision to focus on families, women, and children, and to shun single men was a rather wise decision.

-k

[On Guard for Thee]

"our" excuse is the same as for every other race and culture... we can't catch every deviant, try as we might.

I don't understand the attempt to draw a parallel between isolated child predators and large groups of men forming spontaneously in public places to harass women. I think it's a disingenuous argument.

-k

If you think non Muslim child predators are isolated you've never heard about the Australians that visit the Philippines annually. A US ambassador once concluded that 60% of the over 4 million Aussies who travel there do so specifically for sex, and often they prefer very young girls as well as boys. We could then go on to Thailand and then Viet Nam, but you get the picture.