eyeball Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 The liberals on this board, in their denial, are a microcosm of whats happening around Europe as a whole. It's actually shameful and embarrassing to see the left wing posters deflect the obvious truth or hide from this event. Well, I'd say Cologne is a better microcosm. Three groups are protesting but it looks more like a rabid fervent right wing on one side and everyone else on the other. Perhaps there's a silent conservative faction that we haven't seen yet who's still trying to figure out what to do. Could these be fiscal conservatives perhaps? I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Argus Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 I understand you may wish to tar everyone with the same brush who happen to fall into whatever group your phobia relates to at the time, but luckily most advanced legal systems don't allow that. If the perps in Germany are citizens they should go to jail. If they are asylum seekers then deport them. If they need to step up their screening method then do that. Becoming hysterical won't help at all. My 'phobia' is against rapists. A phobia you clearly don't share. You are willing to go so far as to suggest those who are caught should be punished but recoil in horror from discussing the misogyny of the broader culture they come from which tolerates and causes such behaviour. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
kimmy Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 I agree that the police and media are wrong on this. While the spotlight can and should shine brightly on the perpetrators it does not mean that we need to forget that mostly men commit horrible crimes each year based on factors not fully understood. As much as I would like to only blame Islam (or any religion since I dislike them all) I realize that the problem of violence goes beyond merely trying to keep others out of countries. That's all: I'm not justifying what these creeps did. I'm not diminishing it. If anything I would like to see the outrage at these creeps extend further to the creeps amongst us so that things like rape kits can be properly funded here on Vancouver Island, for example. Nobody is arguing that other issues regarding violence against women should be forgotten and we should just focus on Muslims instead. As a society, we've tried our best to provide a safe environment for women. In Germany, we've seen graphic evidence that mass migration of people from that region has had an immediate and terrible effect on the safety of women. Clearly that policy decision has had a disastrous result for German women. We should learn from it. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
kimmy Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 ...or after the rats have gotten in. This is the kind of thing that I think drags the thread in a negative direction. It just riles people up, without contributing to the discussion. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
jacee Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 Classic. Why do you work so hard at deflecting attention away from rape culture, Jacee? The thread topic is Islamophobia. A creep pepper spraying children is a recent example. .
On Guard for Thee Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 My 'phobia' is against rapists. A phobia you clearly don't share. You are willing to go so far as to suggest those who are caught should be punished but recoil in horror from discussing the misogyny of the broader culture they come from which tolerates and causes such behaviour. Yet another nonsensical accusation, and you contradicted yourself. Try again.
Hal 9000 Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 Looks like the people of Cologne are as divided over this as people here as police break up and get between women, neo-Nazis and anti-fascists all protesting the various sides of this social dilemma. When the groups involved are described as Women, Neo-Nazis and Anti-Fascists, do you really think the reporting is gonna be fair? The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 You haven't demonstrated there is any white man's penchant for sex tourism. In case you haven't noticed, what's actually been demonstrated is that humanity has a penchant for sex including even the darkest aspects of sexuality, including women. wiki And I note that like other progressives who are frantic to defend a culture of violent homophobia and misogyny, I recall the bandwidth you expended when defending the Catholic Church, arguably the oldest, biggest, organized pedophile ring on the planet that also happens to be as homophobic and misogynistic as all get go. you haven't actually addressed or denied what I wrote about the Muslim world. The only things worth addressing are the humongous holes and omissions in what you write. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
dialamah Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 I think that's overly broad, and the kind of thing that has probably pushed the thread in the wrong direction. I think that modern Muslims can leave misogynistic elements of their faith behind, just as modern Christians and Jews do. Yes, they can. And a growing number within the still very patriarchal countries are leaving those elements behind but its a work in progress. However, I think the important point is that the Muslims coming here, and certainly the 1.1 million refugees Germany received in 2015, didn't grow up in environments where respect for women and plurality are cultural norms. While it may not be apparent to you, acceptance and toleration of those from different countries or ethnicities in Middle Eastern countries is not all that uncommon. However, in any society, there are those who dislike 'foreigners', who believe their country would be better off with less of 'them' and more of 'us'. These less accepting elements tend to become a lot more active and loud during societal unrest or breakdown. There is respect for women in Middle Eastern culture, but it's predicated on a very defined role, much like 'respect' for women in Western culture 100 years ago. Heck, even 50 years ago when my mother was single and trying to raise two daughters there was much less 'respect' for women who stepped out of norms than there are now. Still today, our 'culture' uses slut shaming as a way to keep girls in line; men can still get away with rape if the girl can be proven to have behaved immodestly. While we are definitely ahead of many places around the world in terms of creating equality and respect between men and women, we aren't there yet. The claim that people from Middle Eastern countries are *so* far behind us culturally and socially ignores the reality of our own social problems. I do not want to downplay or ignore the fact that a group of people will different experiences and culture may have some difficulty learning what is and is not acceptable in our country. Still, at this point I think our society/culture has only the veneer of the much-vaunted 'civilization' being claimed in this discussion. How long would it take for men to rape women at will, for one group of people to try to subjugate another group if we didn't have laws and enforcement of those laws, if there were any kind of breakdown of social infrastructure? About 24 to 48 hours, if the experiences of victims of Katrina are any example. We are just not so much different or "better" than they are. We are just luckier to live in a stable country, where the laws are enforced, and where we aren't driven to desperation by hunger or fear; take those two things away and I wonder if we'd look at all different than these supposed 'backward, stone-age' Middle Eastern refugees and immigrants.
dialamah Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 In Germany, we've seen graphic evidence that mass migration of people from that region has had an immediate and terrible effect on the safety of women. Clearly that policy decision has had a disastrous result for German women. We should learn from it. -k What do you think we should learn, exactly? Not to let 1 million strangers into our country in a short space of time?
Hal 9000 Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 Yes, they can. And a growing number within the still very patriarchal countries are leaving those elements behind but its a work in progress. While it may not be apparent to you, acceptance and toleration of those from different countries or ethnicities in Middle Eastern countries is not all that uncommon. However, in any society, there are those who dislike 'foreigners', who believe their country would be better off with less of 'them' and more of 'us'. These less accepting elements tend to become a lot more active and loud during societal unrest or breakdown. There is respect for women in Middle Eastern culture, but it's predicated on a very defined role, much like 'respect' for women in Western culture 100 years ago. Heck, even 50 years ago when my mother was single and trying to raise two daughters there was much less 'respect' for women who stepped out of norms than there are now. Still today, our 'culture' uses slut shaming as a way to keep girls in line; men can still get away with rape if the girl can be proven to have behaved immodestly. While we are definitely ahead of many places around the world in terms of creating equality and respect between men and women, we aren't there yet. The claim that people from Middle Eastern countries are *so* far behind us culturally and socially ignores the reality of our own social problems. I do not want to downplay or ignore the fact that a group of people will different experiences and culture may have some difficulty learning what is and is not acceptable in our country. Still, at this point I think our society/culture has only the veneer of the much-vaunted 'civilization' being claimed in this discussion. How long would it take for men to rape women at will, for one group of people to try to subjugate another group if we didn't have laws and enforcement of those laws, if there were any kind of breakdown of social infrastructure? About 24 to 48 hours, if the experiences of victims of Katrina are any example. We are just not so much different or "better" than they are. We are just luckier to live in a stable country, where the laws are enforced, and where we aren't driven to desperation by hunger or fear; take those two things away and I wonder if we'd look at all different than these supposed 'backward, stone-age' Middle Eastern refugees and immigrants. So, who's daughters should we compromise for this "work in progress"? Mine! The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 I don't understand the attempt to draw a parallel between isolated child predators and large groups of men forming spontaneously in public places to harass women. I think it's a disingenuous argument. -k Compared to the assertions that Muslims are worse than everyone else on the planet when it comes to human sexual deviancy? If you say so. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
dialamah Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 I've gotten that advice too, but always in regard to the proverbial "dark alley". Never in regards to a place as public as a train station. Never in regard to the whole city, day or night. -k The mayor's advice to 'stay in well-lit areas, travel with someone, avoid strangers' sounds to me the same advice I've heard in Canada for going out at night at any time, in any populated area. In some parts of some cities, the advice is good for daytime as well. Perhaps the import of what the Mayor has said is because he was referring to day-time as well as night-time activities? I didn't get that from your initial quote.
Hal 9000 Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 The mayor's advice to 'stay in well-lit areas, travel with someone, avoid strangers' sounds to me the same advice I've heard in Canada for going out at night at any time, in any populated area. In some parts of some cities, the advice is good for daytime as well. Perhaps the import of what the Mayor has said is because he was referring to day-time as well as night-time activities? I didn't get that from your initial quote. Get real, If Christy Clark said that, you know there would be a mob outside her office insisting on her resignation. The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 I think that recent events in Cologne and other European cities have demonstrated, quite graphically, that the concerns about the effects of mass migration from Muslim countries aren't unreasonable. I also think these events have shown that the decision to focus on families, women, and children, and to shun single men was a rather wise decision. -k I think the decision was about as stupid as it gets. Shunning single men is probably a key ingredient in the process towards radicalization. I think we should be over there building better refugee camps and hiring the young men we're shunning to build them. We should send properly trained mentors to set them on a proper path. Something like a foreign Katimivik program. A friend of mine was killed in an accident when I was around 16 and his father took a few of us misfit friends under his wing and it definitely turned us around and probably saved us from the same thing that killed is son. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
dialamah Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 So, who's daughters should we compromise for this "work in progress"? Mine! Women in Canada already have a 25% chance of being sexually assaulted. I very much doubt that importing 50,000 Middle Eastern refugees, most of whom will be women and children, is going to put Canadian women at more risk of being sexually assaulted.
dialamah Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 Get real, If Christy Clark said that, you know there would be a mob outside her office insisting on her resignation. What??? I am asking Kimmy for clarification on something she posted, so what is your point here??
eyeball Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 There's a second one that is also painfully obvious, and people-- including German media, and the Cologne police-- bent over backwards to try to discuss mentioning it at all. Does being afraid to mention it make things better, or worse? -k We'll have a clearer answer to that in light of a 4th Reich. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 Well, not only do I condemn the rape culture inherent in Muslim society I also condemn the rape culture still inherent in western societies despite western societies generally being several degrees of magnitude less bad. It is not mutually exclusive to condemn both while being thankful, for the sake of my wife, sister, mother, nieces, grandmother, and all women, that we live in a society that is not nearly as bad as those ones. It is not hard to hold these views at the same time. What he said. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 ...or after the rats have gotten in. You should put that in your sig line too. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
On Guard for Thee Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 Looks like there are Islamophobes in YVR as well. Some dolt decided to pepper spray a newly arrived group of Syrian refugees last night. Way to get things off to a good start!
kimmy Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 What do you think we should learn, exactly? Not to let 1 million strangers into our country in a short space of time? I think the sheer volume is a key part of what happened in Germany. The police were on scene, and had a higher-than-normal presence on site, and were still powerless to help. If the mob numbered a few dozen instead of in the thousands, then things obviously would have turned out much differently. In all likelihood there wouldn't have been a mob in the first place. The mayor's advice to 'stay in well-lit areas, travel with someone, avoid strangers' sounds to me the same advice I've heard in Canada for going out at night at any time, in any populated area. In some parts of some cities, the advice is good for daytime as well. Perhaps the import of what the Mayor has said is because he was referring to day-time as well as night-time activities? I didn't get that from your initial quote. The common-sense advice to women in Canada has always been to take special precautions in dangerous areas. The common-sense advice from Mayor Reker is to treat the whole city as if it's a dangerous place. In Canadian cities, "dangerous places" has always been understood to mean high-crime areas of town, and areas where you might be isolated from assistance if something bad happened. In Cologne, "dangerous places" now appears to mean everywhere outside your home. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
eyeball Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 Nobody is arguing that other issues regarding violence against women should be forgotten and we should just focus on Muslims instead.How do you explain all the arguing that does focus on Muslims instead? I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
kimmy Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 We'll have a clearer answer to that in light of a 4th Reich. This is tip-toeing towards inflammatory. You're obviously referring to the anti-migrant backlash. Could you really expect anything other than a backlash in wake of these incidents? Clearly the politicians have embarked on a reckless policy that has put their own citizens at risk. Clearly the police attempted to brush it under the rug, giving rise to the appearance that they're more interested in protecting the optics than protecting the citizens. And clearly the media initially self-censored the reportage of the incidents, giving rise to the appearance that they can't be trusted to provide information to the people. How could there not be a backlash? -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
kimmy Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 How do you explain all the arguing that does focus on Muslims instead? ...errrrr because this is the Islamophobia thread? -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Recommended Posts