Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Which part do you disagree with OGFT ? I have posted the link with Canadian hate crime stats and indeed Jews are attacked more - from those stats. Why not quote which part of the article you're referring to ? That would be clearer. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Now being we are talking about Islam let us look at seperate Islamic schools here in Canada where they do not have to teach Canadian history or much of anything about Canada but it is more focused on the middle east and their past religious occurances . What ? Who is talking about this ? I will remind folks that Islam is not a race of people but a religion which has gone terribly wrong and a lot of innocent people are being killed because of that religion. You have to separate the religion as the cause versus the geopolitics or other factors from the region. even though they have Canadian citizenship , do not think of themselves as Canadians. Please provide proof of that assertion. In closing I would like to tell a story ... What are we supposed to get from your story ? These people you met are bad people ? And therefore anybody who doesn't like people not them are bad people ? Or are we supposed to believe that all Muslims are like your neighbours ? Let's hear it. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Rue Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Thanks Eye. Your latest ridiculous smeer and unfounded negative generalization about Conservatives shows once again you will come on this thread and complain about people making negative stereotypes against Muslims, then in the next breath engage in the very same exercise. You can't grasp the point that the disciminatory generalizations not their target is what makes them questionable.
scribblet Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Reminds of some posters saying an 'honour killing' is different than 'a death resulting from domestic violence'. Dead is dead. So by your lites, 'hate crimes' resulting in death are no different because 'dead is dead'. Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
scribblet Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Anti-Semitism is a much bigger problem in North America and Europe than any so-called Islamophobia. This si true. Anti Semitism is on the rise in Europe as hate attacks on Jews soar but hate attacks on Muslims go down. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11360772/Hate-attacks-on-Jews-soared-94-last-year-police-figures-show.html Harassment of Jews is on the increase world wide http://www.timesofisrael.com/harassment-of-jews-on-the-rise-worldwide-study-finds/?utm_source=The+Times+of+Israel+Daily+Edition&utm_campaign=c5c9fc1d2a-2015_02_27&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_adb46cec92-c5c9fc1d2a-55038417 and in the U.K.Anti-Semitic attacks more than double http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11391156/Anti-Semitic-attacks-more-than-double-in-UK.html Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 I would suggest using 95% for a more fake dramatic attempt at saying the majority of Muslims are defective. If the polls show 88% of Egyptian Muslims favor executing anyone who leaves Islam does that not show that at least a very large percentage of that group of people have religious beliefs which are so extreme they should not be welcome here? Because along with that belief comes a belief in other harsh aspects of Islam like executing gays and blasphemers, and Sharia law, and treating women and infidels like crap and all the rest. I know the ongoing theory among progressives is all that will change after the first generation but I don't believe previous groups of immigrants have necessarily abandoned their religious beliefs one generation in, and I don't believe there is any evidence Muslims are doing so either. In fact the last poll I saw said 1st generation Canadian Muslims are MORE religious than their immigrant parents, not less. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Islam is a religion. Not a race. You and I could convert today..."radicalize" during the week...blow-up the K-Mart by Friday prayers. The problem is not necessarily with Islam the religion but Islam the political ideology. Islam is both. It contains laws for how government should operate and how criminal and family law cases should be decided. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Logic is logic. Pintos had a flaw built into their design making them all susceptible to blowing up if rear ended. I'm scratching my head as to how you apply that to a group of people, without being indiscriminant. There are lots of other cars available. Knowing the pintos might blow up if rear ended, you would almost certainly choose another model. Similarly, knowing that Muslims, esp from a certain geographical area, not only might have be extremists but also that they statistically perform very poorly in economic terms, why would it not make sense to discourage immigration from that area and select more from another area? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 The problem ... It's not a problem, since we have our own political system that accommodates differences quite well. If it didn't, you wouldn't be allowed to express opposition to it. That's proof that the system is robust, you see. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) I just can't see discriminating against an individual without a reason. We're not discriminating against an individual, but against a group or area. Why is it okay for the Liberals to discriminate against single men in Syria on the basis that they believe they are more likely to be a threat, and yet not okay for us to discriminate between accepting ten thousand Pakistani immigrants and ten thousand Portuguese immigrants? Which group, statistically, do you think are both less likely to be threats, and more likely to adapt and integrate, and perform well economically in Canada? I have no objection to kicking them out again at the first sign of bad behavior, Define 'bad behaviour'. Given our notoriously inefficient, ineffective, and expensive legal system, it's very difficult to kick out immigrants who commit crimes. It's virtually impossible to kick out immigrants simply because of 'bad behaviour'. Witness the Khadr family, safely ensconced on welfare in Toronto all these years. Edited December 18, 2015 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 It's not a problem, since we have our own political system that accommodates differences quite well. Our political system is such that groups have influence proportionate to both their numbers, and how determined they are to affect change. While Muslim numbers remain low their influence on the political system is similarly low, but their numbers have doubled every ten years since 1971, and there is no sign of that slowing, between natural birth and continuing immigration. We are seeing Muslims in government now, and we will see more in future, and if their belief system is similar to that in the middle east our system will begin to shift to accommodate that too. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Me neither (I was born and raised in Bradford, England), but it is unavoidable. It certainly Is avoidable, by focusing our immigration efforts on different geographical areas. Edited December 18, 2015 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 So just change racist and insert xenophobic. Why don't you address the topic instead of trying to come up with acceptable insults to address the person discussing the topic? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Our political system is such that groups have influence proportionate to both their numbers, and how determined they are to affect change. That's too discrete a relationship. It's a lot more nebulous than that. For example, the Jewish demographic in Ontario is much smaller than the Muslim one and yet when the province responded to the religious arbitration legislation to make it available to Muslims as well as Christians and Jews it ended up being shut down. My point is that your two factors aren't enough. We are seeing Muslims in government now, and we will see more in future, and if their belief system is similar to that in the middle east our system will begin to shift to accommodate that too. What do you mean 'if' ? You don't think that's necessarily true ? Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
waldo Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 If the polls show 88% of Egyptian Muslims favor executing anyone who leaves Islam does that not show that at least a very large percentage of that group of people have religious beliefs which are so extreme they should not be welcome here? polls? Isn't that just the single PEW survey you keep flogging... in spite of the very critical reviews of that survey that has significant scrutiny towards it given it's methodology, sampling variations/limitations, it's presumptive reliance on the false premise that 'sharia law' means the same thing across all Muslim countries, that it didn't screen to ensure all participants were, with certainty, in fact Muslim, etc.. now, if you're so accepting to that survey and its findings, given the result for that same question was 17% for Lebanon, 18% for Tunisia, 8% for Turkey, etc., ... MLW member 'Argus'... are you accepting to Canada allowing the immigration of Muslims from Lebanon, from Tunisia, from Turkey, from... ? Is that what you're saying here, hey?
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 polls? Isn't that just the single PEW survey you keep flogging Do you have anything better? now, if you're so accepting to that survey and its findings, given the result for that same question was 17% for Lebanon, 18% for Tunisia, 8% for Turkey, etc., ... MLW member 'Argus'... are you accepting to Canada allowing the immigration of Muslims from Lebanon, from Tunisia, from Turkey, from... ? Is that what you're saying here, hey? Given 56% of Tunisians favor making Sharia law the official law of their country, no. I would certainly prefer bringing in immigrants from Turkey and Lebanon rather than from Pakistan and Egypt, however. But we also have statistics showing that, overall, immigrants from that area do not perform well economically in Canada. Given the entire point of immigration is to benefit this country economically, I would prefer we focus our immigration efforts on areas of the world which produce economically successful immigrants - ones who will pay taxes. The most prominent of those areas is Europe. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 The problem is not necessarily with Islam the religion but Islam the political ideology. Islam is both. It contains laws for how government should operate and how criminal and family law cases should be decided. I'm well aware of the political and military branches of Islam. When quizzed via poll, the result may vary widely but it is a shockingly high number of the faithful view Sharia as the only set of laws no matter the location....40% here....60% there....80% over there...95% over there...etc. But the Quran orders Muslims to obey the law of the land when in minority as long as it doesn't break Allah's Law. http://quran.com/5/92 From there it gets pretty complex...what exactly is God's Law? What to do when it is broken by the unbeliever? What if a Muslim must break Allah's Law due to a conflict with secular law? That's where all that idtirar and taqiya come into play for those most serious about pulling the wool over the eyes of the infidel. One would need a Robert Spencer or some other Islamic theology scholar to figure out the exact jurisprudence for us plebs. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
waldo Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Do you have anything better? good to read you acknowledging the very critical reviews of that survey... and yet it remains your ready go-to source! Go figure, hey! . Given 56% of Tunisians favor making Sharia law the official law of their country, no. I would certainly prefer bringing in immigrants from Turkey and Lebanon rather than from Pakistan and Egypt, however. But we also have statistics showing that, overall, immigrants from that area do not perform well economically in Canada. Given the entire point of immigration is to benefit this country economically, I would prefer we focus our immigration efforts on areas of the world which produce economically successful immigrants - ones who will pay taxes. The most prominent of those areas is Europe. I note you managed to ignore that part of my post that speaks to a significant failing of the survey given it's presumptive reliance on the false premise that 'sharia law' means the same thing across all Muslim countries. But wait now... from that same survey you acknowledge is flawed: 40 percent of the Tunisian respondents believe that Tunisian law already follows Sharia very or somewhat closely... 72 percent believe Sharia can have multiple interpretations. Say what MLW member 'Argus'... "multiple interpretations"! Why, that won't do - that certainly doesn't fit the narrative/agenda of your favoured ready go-to survey, now does it? .
drummindiver Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 good to read you acknowledging the very critical reviews of that survey... and yet it remains your ready go-to source! Go figure, hey! . I hope you realize the irony of this statement given the propensity of those on the left to flog PEW polls as gospel when it suits their needs
waldo Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 I hope you realize the irony of this statement given the propensity of those on the left to flog PEW polls as gospel when it suits their needs what irony? If a poll/survey receives critical review, justifiably... surely that doesn't mean ALL polls/surveys are suspect? Surely not... surely you jest... surely!
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 good to read you acknowledging the very critical reviews of that survey... and yet it remains your ready go-to source! Go figure, hey! I wasn't acknowledging it but dismissing it as noise. PEW is a respected polling agency and it has done a number of surveys of the Muslim world. Nothing it's come up with has looked particularly shocking to those who know the area. . I note you managed to ignore that part of my post that speaks to a significant failing of the survey given it's presumptive reliance on the false premise that 'sharia law' means the same thing across all Muslim countries. Sharia Law is not open to interpretation. The survey asked if Sharia should be the law of the land, not whether aspects of Sharia law should be incorporated into the law of the land. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 And now for something completely unshocking. In a survey one third of Canadians agreed with Donald Trump that Muslims should be kept out of Canada. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canadians-turned-off-by-donald-trumps-inflammatory-policies-poll "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Thanks Eye. Your latest ridiculous smeer and unfounded negative generalization about Conservatives shows once again you will come on this thread and complain about people making negative stereotypes against Muslims, then in the next breath engage in the very same exercise. You can't grasp the point that the disciminatory generalizations not their target is what makes them questionable. You should know by now that I mean conservatives not Conservatives. Are you asserting that conservatives, liberals, lefties and righties etc etc are like cultures or races that we have to be careful about not offending now? Jeez Louise. Edited December 18, 2015 by eyeball I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
waldo Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 I wasn't acknowledging it but dismissing it as noise. PEW is a respected polling agency and it has done a number of surveys of the Muslim world. Nothing it's come up with has looked particularly shocking to those who know the area. no - it's flawed and you've been given the reasons why; problems with the methodology, sampling variations/limitations, it's presumptive reliance on the false premise that 'sharia law' means the same thing across all Muslim countries, that it didn't screen to ensure all participants were, with certainty, in fact Muslim, etc.. just a snapshot on an example finding: notwithstanding all the critical review of that poll/survey, it sampled 1800 Indonesians and labeled that one-off as a definitive assessment of 200 millions Indonesians... and then, given the zeal shown by "Phobes of Islam", that has become the internet's defacto summary assessment on Muslim Indonesians! Yup, you sure likee that survey, hey MLW member 'Argus'! . Sharia Law is not open to interpretation. The survey asked if Sharia should be the law of the land, not whether aspects of Sharia law should be incorporated into the law of the land. I'll simply ask you the same question I asked last time you played your "Sharia card"... will you avoid answering it, once again? riddle me this: the poll assumes a single meaning of Sharia across the world-wide Muslim complement, country-by-country... you've personally made reference to that particular nugget several times. Is it your understanding that single meaning poll summary assessment is accurate and representative? .
waldo Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 And now for something completely unshocking. In a survey one third of Canadians agreed with Donald Trump that Muslims should be kept out of Canada. read the question again! Canada? Only a 1/3? You have much work ahead! Chop, chop... git at er!
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