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Islamophobia in Canada


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21 hours ago, dialamah said:

Everybody on here has, at some time or another, agreed that these things are wrong - whether practiced by Middle Eastern people, African people, South Asians, Russians, Canadians, Americans, British, etc, or whether they are Muslim, Christian or 'other':

  • Honor killings
  • Female inequality/oppression
  • Discrimination/jailing/killing of gay people
  • Pedophilia
  • FGM
  • Terrorist activity
  • Lashings/Stoning/Beheadings
  • Jailing/killing blasphemers and apostates
  • Conversion by the sword
  • Other stuff I may have missed that is generally frowned upon in Western/progressive countries

Now, since certain people on this board think they are the only ones who "care" about this, maybe they could explain to the rest of us how they might address those issues?

By keeping people who support that stuff out of Canada. You seem to believe all those who support it are Muslims. No one else has made that suggestion, but it seems to be behind your determined opposition to values testing of potential immigrants.

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The fact is that by 2030, according to Stats Canada, the only way to increase Canadian population is through immigration.

This is total nonsense, as I have demonstrated repeatedly with cites from actual demographics experts. I know you're not actually interested in facts, though.

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The difference I see between me and someone like Argus is that I do care about these issues - I do what I can about it, without feeling obligated to hate on every single Muslim in the world.    People like Argus aren't dealing with 'the issues'; they just want to build walls of suspicion and fear between "us" and "them".

The difference between you and me is I'm interested in preventing them and all you're interested in doing is ensuring that those who perpetrate them continue to flow into Canada in as large numbers as possible. You might occasionally, when pressed, speak about opposing the list above, but you don't in actual fact. Or if you do it's a tentative kind of thing, like a sputtering match compared to the blazing bonfire of your dedication to ensuring we continue to have Muslims flooding into Canada.

Edited by Argus
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20 hours ago, dialamah said:

Well, for the purposes of the discussion at large, nobody knows what the thought processes, experiences or beliefs of any individual Muslim are.  Yet, some on this board keep insisting that Muslims believe x,y,z, and all Muslims should be viewed with suspicion.

Imagine asserting what Muslims believe based upon their very, very openly and repeatedly and determinedly stated, written and demonstrated religious beliefs...

I bet I can tell you what Communists believe too.

Edited by Argus
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All Muslims are suspect because their holy book orders them to fight the unbeliever...not be nice to the unbeliever...not turn the other cheek...fight...kill.

Which Muslims are the ones that are going to go "mentally ill" and cause the next terror attack?

Nobody knows...but it WILL happen.

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5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Or if you do it's a tentative kind of thing, like a sputtering match compared to the blazing bonfire of your dedication to ensuring we continue to have Muslims flooding into Canada.

You only see me in the context of opposing the anti-Muslim rhetoric I find on this board.  You haven't seen me opposing misogynistic people of either gender or any religion.  They dislike me as much as you do.  Its true I have had limited opportunity to oppose homophobic people, but when the opportunity has arisen, I'm all in.

Do you donate to female-empowering organizations?   

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

Imagine asserting what Muslims believe based upon their very, very openly and repeatedly and determinedly stated, written and demonstrated religious beliefs...

I bet I can tell you what Communists believe too.

Argus, two somewhat reasonable people (you and I) read the same report (the Environics report on the survey of Canadian Muslims) and came to polar opposite conclusions.  It is inconceivable that 1.6 billion Muslims have the same interpretation of the Quran.  Yes, too many support violence, homophobia, oppression of women, etc... but many follow the teaching of Islam in a personal spiritual manor and are completely tolerant of others.

I accept your bet - what do Communists believe?

Finally, not all people emigrating to Canada from Communist countries are/were Communist.  Not all people immigrating to Canada from Islamic countries are Islamist.

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5 minutes ago, carepov said:

Finally, not all people emigrating to Canada from Communist countries are/were Communist.  Not all people immigrating to Canada from Islamic countries are Islamist.

And yet virtually all conservatives who emigrate...wherever...are right-wingers.

Screening for conservatives is hopeless but we could easily let everyone know that Canada is a progressive country and that while conservative values are tolerated progress is the more appropriate choice for immigrants to follow.

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8 minutes ago, carepov said:

Argus, two somewhat reasonable people (you and I) read the same report (the Environics report on the survey of Canadian Muslims) and came to polar opposite conclusions.  It is inconceivable that 1.6 billion Muslims have the same interpretation of the Quran.  Yes, too many support violence, homophobia, oppression of women, etc... but many follow the teaching of Islam in a personal spiritual manor and are completely tolerant of others.

How many of the latter are coming into Canada, as opposed to the former? I've personally never met a tolerant Muslim myself, but perhaps others have. I'm sure there are some. Irshad Manji, for example. But I don't believe there are many that would be regarded as 'tolerant' if you use the same standard as is commonly used towards Caucasians in Canada. Do you think there'll be a lot of hijabs at Toronto's gay pride parade? A lot of bearded Muslim men? I mean, the Toronto media depicted Rob Ford as a horrible homophobic bigot simply because he wouldn't go to the pride parade. Do you think the average Muslim in Canada is more tolerant than Ford was?

I read what the religion says a good Muslim should do and think about infidels and gays and atheists and women, and none of it is tolerant. I look at how Muslims behave in the dozens of countries in which they are the majority and I don't see much tolerance there either. So why would I think a devoted Muslim would be tolerant towards equality?

8 minutes ago, carepov said:

I accept your bet - what do Communists believe?

Well, they don't believe in Capitalism, for one, just like Muslims - those who follow the mainstream beliefs of Islam - don't believe in gender equality or rights for gays.

8 minutes ago, carepov said:

Finally, not all people emigrating to Canada from Communist countries are/were Communist.  Not all people immigrating to Canada from Islamic countries are Islamist.

One did not have to be a Communist to live in a Communist country. But Communism is not a religion, it's an ideology. Islam is both a religion and an ideology combined. I have yet to hear, in any debate between Muslims and the likes of Sam Hill or Bill Maher or Douglas Murray or Peter or Christopher Hitchens, that you can be a good Muslim while rejecting basic tenets of the religion. I have yet to hear a defender of Islam state, even one time "Oh well, yes the quran says that, but we can ignore that." or anything similar.

Below, as an example, is a discussion of Islam and extremism on the BBC. The individual representing Islam, Asim Qureshi, is an educated, well-spoken British born leader of a Muslim advocacy group who evidently has often been used on the BBC and other programs as an example of a moderate Muslim. Only this presenter, Andrew Neil, had apparently done his homework, and pointed out the incredibly intolerant stuff on Qureshi's web site, and some of the things he'd said in the past. And despite being pinned down, Qureshi refused to say that he disapproved of stoning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0n-08I3P8s

 

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2 minutes ago, Argus said:

How many of the latter are coming into Canada, as opposed to the former? I've personally never met a tolerant Muslim myself, but perhaps others have. I'm sure there are some. Irshad Manji, for example. But I don't believe there are many that would be regarded as 'tolerant' if you use the same standard as is commonly used towards Caucasians in Canada. Do you think there'll be a lot of hijabs at Toronto's gay pride parade? A lot of bearded Muslim men? I mean, the Toronto media depicted Rob Ford as a horrible homophobic bigot simply because he wouldn't go to the pride parade. Do you think the average Muslim in Canada is more tolerant than Ford was?

My neighbors 2 houses down are Muslims.  They are great people, I borrowed a compressor from the guy the other day.  They have 4 kids and are probably way too busy to be political.  I have no opinion regarding Rob Ford, however Naheed Nenshi is arguably Canada's greatest mayor ever.

In my experience tolerance is directly correlated to education.

8 minutes ago, Argus said:

I read what the religion says a good Muslim should do and think about infidels and gays and atheists and women, and none of it is tolerant. I look at how Muslims behave in the dozens of countries in which they are the majority and I don't see much tolerance there either. So why would I think a devoted Muslim would be tolerant towards equality?

Again, it is about interpretation.  Also, there is a whole spectrum of "devoutness" with the extremeis/literalists at one end and the casual observers at the other.

8 minutes ago, Argus said:

Well, they don't believe in Capitalism, for one, just like Muslims - those who follow the mainstream beliefs of Islam - don't believe in gender equality or rights for gays.

Wrong on both counts.  There are plenty of Communists in China that believe in Capitalism.  And there are plenty of mainstream Muslims that believe in gender equality and gay rights.

8 minutes ago, Argus said:

One did not have to be a Communist to live in a Communist country. But Communism is not a religion, it's an ideology. Islam is both a religion and an ideology combined. I have yet to hear, in any debate between Muslims and the likes of Sam Hill or Bill Maher or Douglas Murray or Peter or Christopher Hitchens, that you can be a good Muslim while rejecting basic tenets of the religion. I have yet to hear a defender of Islam state, even one time "Oh well, yes the quran says that, but we can ignore that." or anything similar.

Islam is not political - Islamism is.  Not all Muslims are Islamist.

What basic tenets are you referring to, I only know of 5 - all religious:

  • 1.1 Shahada: Faith.
  • 1.2 Salat: Prayer.
  • 1.3 Zakāt: Charity.
  • 1.4 Sawm: Fasting.
  • 1.5 Hajj: Pilgrimage to Mecca.

One example of a liberal Muslim is Shadi Hamid, I heard him speak on cbc Ideas:

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/islamist-persistence-the-rise-and-reality-of-political-islam-part-1-1.4055299

https://nervana1.org/2017/02/27/shadi-hamid-and-the-infantilization-of-muslims/

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1 hour ago, carepov said:

In my experience tolerance is directly correlated to education

 

Islam is not political - Islamism is.  Not all Muslims are Islamist.

 

Yes uneducated people are intolerant.  But hey, you love the unwashed masses and their ignorance. You didn't mean that.

Next what does your "Islam is not political- Islamism is" comment mean? Do you even know when you trotted it  out?

Since when does one have to put ISM at the end of Islam before it becomes inherently political>

Go read the Koran and ditch the ridiculous buzz words. This is not some political science lecture with labels with the word ism.

In actual life, Islam  does not separate state from religion. End of story. That makes it inherently political , ism or no ism. Its got nothing to do with putting an Ism at the end of Islam.

It in fact has to do with the fact that the Koran clearly sets out in detail a wide spectrum of issues regarding political, social and personal matters by  defines them as laws in legislation. The Koran defines how to  judge between people in their disputes and to do that it necessarily created a political and legal apparatus to administer and execute its laws. Muhammed was defined not just as the leader of Islam but its Head of state.

Have you even read the Koran?

 

"Apparently when they added an ism to my rectum it became a political movement. Who knew."

Rue 2017

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rue
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39 minutes ago, carepov said:

My neighbors 2 houses down are Muslims.  They are great people, I borrowed a compressor from the guy the other day.  They have 4 kids and are probably way too busy to be political.

My neighbour next door is very nice. He seems to like me and he stops to chat whenever he sees me. He seems to be a nice guy, too, unless the discussion turns to Islam. His wife wears the hijab and the full robe thingee, and he tells me with great confidence that she must, because that is what God requires. He's a friendly guy, but don't get him started on gays.

Have you ever asked your neighbours what they think of homosexuals, or on the sharia laws which require women be stoned for adultery and gays killed?

 

39 minutes ago, carepov said:

In my experience tolerance is directly correlated to education.

Or not. The you tube video I posted, of the well-spoken representative of a Muslim lobby group? Asim Qureshi? He's a lawyer, and clearly very articulate and educated.

He still supports ISIS and stoning of women for adultery.

39 minutes ago, carepov said:

Again, it is about interpretation.  Also, there is a whole spectrum of "devoutness" with the extremeis/literalists at one end and the casual observers at the other.

Islam is not political - Islamism is.  Not all Muslims are Islamist.

One example of a liberal Muslim is Shadi Hamid, I heard him speak on cbc Ideas:

I looked him up. Here's what he has to say about your claim of "a whole spectrum of devoutness/literalists".

There’s no contradiction in the term American Muslim; but that doesn’t mean Islam is like other monotheistic faiths. It isn’t, in part because it doesn’t lend itself as easily to modern liberalism. The more I’ve studied my own religion — its theology, history and culture — the more I’ve come to appreciate how complicated it is and how much more complicated it must be for people who are coming at it from scratch.

Contrary to what many think, there is no Christian equivalent to Koranic “inerrancy,” even among far-right evangelicals. Muslims believe the Koran is not only God’s word, but God’s actual speech — in other words, every single letter and word in the Koran comes directly from God. This seemingly semantic difference has profound implications. If the Koran is God’s speech, and God is unchanging and perfect, then so is his speech. To question the divine origin of the Koran, then, is to question God himself, and God is not easily put in a box, well away from the public sphere. 

Differences between Christianity and Islam also are evident in each faith’s central figure. Unlike Jesus, who was a dissident, Muhammad was both prophet and politician. And more than just any politician, he was a state-builder as well as a head of state. Not only were the religious and political functions intertwined in the person of Muhammad, they were meant to be intertwined. To argue for the separation of religion from politics, then, is to argue against the model of the very man Muslims most admire and seek to emulate.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hamid-islamic-exceptionalism-burkini-20160909-snap-story.html

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On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎08 at 5:36 PM, eyeball said:

No, I've only been serious about expressing my disgust and loathing for rwc's for a fraction of the time I've endured their crap.

 

The posing as a victim is hilarious. You clearly need everything thread to focus on you and your feelings of victimization. So go start a thread about how you are a victim when you won't even define whether you are white, a Muslim, etc. Lol..

I mean I can only  imagine the pain you live with. Should I go to MacDonald's or Burger King. Oh me oh my. What should I do.

Edited by Rue
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On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎08 at 4:10 PM, eyeball said:

I suggest right wing conservative...stupid f-kers.

I suggest you need to either contribute something meaningful to this thread or get off. Your one trick pony name calling is spent.

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On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎08 at 6:23 PM, dialamah said:

Yup.  In 2015, I didn't even know I was "leftist", till certain right-wingers on here started crapping on me for it.  Still, despite the box those people want to put me in, for easy labeling and dismissing, I shall continue to feel myself beholden to no political party or ideology.   

I like  you. No worries. I have always thought of you as apolitical actually sort of Taoist, Buddhist vegetarian Glinda he Good Witch from the Wizard of Oz like I actually never have seen you as left, right or anything other than just you. Sorry. I like debating you. I think the righty lefty on this forum is fun to bug people with but it means nothing. They call Argus right wing all the time and he has some very progressive views that could technically be called left wing. I fight with Dong On The Porch about how far to go when using general references to Muslims but I doubt people realize he's probably more tolerant than people think and just despises Muslim terrorism.

I don't even think Eye is intentionally as extremist as he sounds. I don't think he realizes sometimes his double standards of intolerance but I only label him to piss him of and have fun. These labels are nonsense. People say what they think and they go all over the place.

I wouldn' even bother label Kimmy or Godess or BC or Omni or anyone else. They all do a varied approach to everything.

To respect someone is to debate them and argue with them I think. It would be boring if everyone thought the same.

Hell even Michael Harder the most Liberal on the board is entitled to some forgiveness just because he's wrong all the time.

There now I am going. I need to go fight with someone.

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58 minutes ago, Argus said:

My neighbour next door is very nice. He seems to like me and he stops to chat whenever he sees me. He seems to be a nice guy, too, unless the discussion turns to Islam. His wife wears the hijab and the full robe thingee, and he tells me with great confidence that she must, because that is what God requires. He's a friendly guy, but don't get him started on gays.

Have you ever asked your neighbours what they think of homosexuals, or on the sharia laws which require women be stoned for adultery and gays killed?

 

Sounds to me like your basing your whole discussion on this topic on one next door neighbor. There might be one a block or two down that doesn't freak you out with the "thingee". Expand your horizons is my suggestion. You don't have to fly to and work in Islamic countries as I have done, just don't set your store on the basis of one neighbor.  

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26 minutes ago, Omni said:

Sounds to me like your basing your whole discussion on this topic on one next door neighbor. There might be one a block or two down that doesn't freak you out with the "thingee". Expand your horizons is my suggestion. You don't have to fly to and work in Islamic countries as I have done, just don't set your store on the basis of one neighbor.  

I've talked to and worked with a number of Muslims over the years.

And my standards for acceptable behaviour are enormously higher than yours.

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5 minutes ago, Argus said:

I've talked to and worked with a number of Muslims over the years.

And my standards for acceptable behaviour are enormously higher than yours.

Yet another of your wild assumption. 'Twas ever thus it seems.

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6 minutes ago, Omni said:

Yet another of your wild assumption. 'Twas ever thus it seems.

Assumption not needed. Demonstrated in writing over many, many posts.

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6 minutes ago, Omni said:

Similar to bigotry/xenophobia perhaps?

You need to get over your view that you're special and everyone else is morally deficient. Not wanting a lot of religious fanatics to immigrate to Canada doesn't make me a bigot, it makes me normal, part of the great majority. It's you who are in the minority - as you are in everything else.

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1 minute ago, Argus said:

You need to get over your view that you're special and everyone else is morally deficient. Not wanting a lot of religious fanatics to immigrate to Canada doesn't make me a bigot, it makes me normal, part of the great majority. It's you who are in the minority - as you are in everything else.

Nobody said we wanted a lot of religious fanatics, that's just you're idea, and you don't/will not understand that being a Muslim does not make you one.

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Just now, Omni said:

Nobody said we wanted a lot of religious fanatics, that's just you're idea, and you don't/will not understand that being a Muslim does not make you one.

That's your view. Most Canadians think differently. Just as in Europe, where most Europeans want an end to Muslim immigration.

While 60 percent of Ontarians say they initially supported the decision to import Syrian refugees, 75 percent now say Muslim immigrants hold fundamentally different values and a majority now say Islam’s mainstream doctrines promote violence. Only one-third of those in the region have a positive impression of the religion.

Three-quarters of Ontarians wish their country would focus on taking care of its own citizens instead of devoting resources to foreign refugees.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/06/after-importing-thousands-of-refugees-canadians-now-say-muslim-immigrants-have-fundamentally-different-values/

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36 minutes ago, Omni said:

Nobody said we wanted a lot of religious fanatics, that's just you're idea, and you don't/will not understand that being a Muslim does not make you one.

We don't want any at all, do we?

I understand that being a Muslim does not necessarily make you one, but I also understand that some of them might be Muslims. That's the bit that seems so difficult to get across to some people.

Edited by bcsapper
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21 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

We don't want any at all, do we?

I understand that being a Muslim does not necessarily make you one, but I also understand that some of them might be Muslims. That's the bit that seems so difficult to get across to some people.

Who is saying there aren't religious fanatics among Muslims?

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On 2017-05-06 at 0:27 PM, Argus said:

Found a poll asking American Muslims what they felt. I doubt if you polled, say, Italian or Chinese or Ukrainian immigrants to the US fifty or a hundred years back you'd have found any of them with the gall to think they ought to be governed under any law other than American.

According to the just-released survey of Muslims, a majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.”  When that question was put to the broader U.S. population, the overwhelming majority held that shariah should not displace the U.S. Constitution (86% to 2%).

More than half (51%) of U.S. Muslims polled also believe either that they should have the choice of American or shariah courts, or that they should have their own tribunals to apply shariah. Only 39% of those polled said that Muslims in the U.S. should be subject to American courts.

Even more troubling, is the fact that nearly a quarter of the Muslims polled believed that, “It is legitimate to use violence to punish those who give offense to Islam by, for example, portraying the prophet Mohammed.”

Nearly one-fifth of Muslim respondents said that the use of violence in the United States is justified in order to make shariah the law of the land in this country.

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/

You should check out the founder of this site. 

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