dialamah Posted November 21, 2015 Report Posted November 21, 2015 I have no interest in volunteering to help people who'd have me put to death in their homeland, if it still existed. I doubt we'll get any refugees here in Kim City anyway. They'll all end up in Muslim enclaves in the major metropolitan centers. -k Maybe you need to get out of your enclave, experience something other than life in Kim City.
dialamah Posted November 21, 2015 Report Posted November 21, 2015 This also helps explain the reason why we don't see all the moderates coming out against the atrocities of nations like Saudi Arabia. It usually ends in jail time or death. Speaking out against the 'royals' is not a good move. Western Governments don't even do more than offer a gentle "Maybe you shouldn't do that", afraid it'll end up in 'lack-of-oil', presumably a fate worse than death if the electorate (that's us) can't keep our cars going. (Ok, yeah, the above is oversimplification - oil keeps more than cars going).
WestCoastRunner Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) I doubt we'll get any refugees here in Kim City anyway. They'll all end up in Muslim enclaves in the major metropolitan centers. -k Then perhaps you should start a fund raiser to sponsor a family. I assure you, this will change your thinking if you dare to open your mind.And this goes to every Syrian basher out there. Edited November 22, 2015 by WestCoastRunner I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Bryan Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Where to even start with all the nonsense you spout. The nonsense, as usual, is all yours. According to every source I've read, Muhammad is mentioned just 4 times in the Quran, far fewer than Jesus. Mohammed WROTE the Quran and the Hadith. they are his instructions. He repeatedly ordered the death of unbelievers, and he led by example having murdered at least 45 people. The bible is filled with stories of incest, child killing, executions and mass killings. Yes, the Bible contains both history and instruction. Jesus in every way at all times absolutely rejected the use of force and violence. He instructed his followers not to do it, and he led by example. Historically, there have been Christian theocracies that were every bit as vicious and dictatorial as ISIS. No, there categorically have not. There have been dictatorships that took advantage of the fact that ancient people couldn't read and told them that what they were doing was God's work. There is no aspect of Christianity modern or historical that calls for or allows that kind of behaviour in any way. I could go on but I'll leave it at that. You should go on, because you have yet to make a coherent point. Reasonable people without biased and bigoted views on the matter would conclude the following: Any belief system has good and bad elements. It's up to the followers to interpret the belief system in a an appropriate manner. So are there good Nazis? Good KKK chapters? Edited November 22, 2015 by Bryan
Scotty Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Personally, I prefer to go by what actual Muslims and Muslim clerics and scholars say, and what they say is that people who engage in terrorism and war are not following Muhammed's teachings. Question: Does the Quran really contain dozens of verses promoting violence? Summary Answer: The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subject to interpretation as anything else in the Quran. Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness." Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Or perhaps it's you that isn't open to the fact that people can be educated on more tolerant beliefs? Or perhaps it's you who does not understand that religion is a powerful tool for clinging to intolerant beliefs. It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
capricorn Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 This also helps explain the reason why we don't see all the moderates coming out against the atrocities of nations like Saudi Arabia. It usually ends in jail time or death. Speaking out against the 'royals' is not a good move.You know Gost, this is what gets to me. How come so many ME people opt to leave their country rather than fight to overthrow, and kill, the monsters that are making their existence unlivable. Contrast this to when Canadians took up arms more than once, not on our soil, but abroad so that we could defeat those destructive forces before they got to our shores. I do believe I'm not the only Canadian to have such feelings and perhaps these sentiments are fueling some of the resistance to Trudeau's refugee plan. "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
dialamah Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Question: Does the Quran really contain dozens of verses promoting violence? Yes. As does the bible. Your source, the website "The Religion of Peace", is stricly anit-Islamic propaganda. I've perused it's pages before. For the other side of the debate, try this: http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/ That letter details exactly how ISIS is acting contrary to the teachings of the Koran and of their prophet. It's detailed and specific. Or perhaps it's you who does not understand that religion is a powerful tool for clinging to intolerant beliefs. As yourself and some others have demonstrated, it's not just religion that is a powerful tool for clinging to intolerant beliefs.
Smallc Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 You know Gost, this is what gets to me. How come so many ME people opt to leave their country rather than fight to overthrow, and kill, the monsters that are making their existence unlivable. Which ones? Do they have a good alternative, really?
capricorn Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Which ones? Do they have a good alternative, really?Sorry Smallc, I don't understand the question. Do you mean a good alternative to staying and defending their country? "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
dialamah Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) You know Gost, this is what gets to me. How come so many ME people opt to leave their country rather than fight to overthrow, and kill, the monsters that are making their existence unlivable. Contrast this to when Canadians took up arms more than once, not on our soil, but abroad so that we could defeat those destructive forces before they got to our shores. I do believe I'm not the only Canadian to have such feelings and perhaps these sentiments are fueling some of the resistance to Trudeau's refugee plan. "If you go fight for your country, will your country take care of your wife and kids? No? Well then. If you have any personal experience in war time countries, you'll see that once the social structure breaks down, and you are the man of the family, you are pretty much the only chance of survival for your aging parents, your wife, and your kids. Especially in Muslim countries where most women don't / can't work. If you leave to join the army, your wife and kids will be begging in the street, be killed by random snipers, be raped and sold if they fall in the wrong hands. The ones who go to fight are either unmarried young men with some kind of ideological pursuit, or people with strong vested interest. For example, if you are an officer in the Syrian army, if you die in battle, the government will pay your family a pension. If you don't fight, the rebels will surely massacre you and your family. Then you fight. The last group are people who already lost their family in the war. They fight because they hate the other side. With any given country, the ones who have a reason to fight will be in the minority. The majority will be the ones with family obligations and they'd rather take their family to some place safe. If you remember WWII, and how every single country implemented more and more stringent conscription, you'll see that it's actually NOT human nature to stay and fight. It's human nature to run, unless they are backed into a corner. You don't need conscription if even 5% of the population would volunteer in WWII. The other thing you have to realize is that it's a CIVIL WAR now in Syria, Iraq, and Libya. Defensive wars against foreign armies will often make the people come together, but civil wars just tear the people apart. There will be a lot of people with friends and relatives on both sides, and they would rather get out than having to shoot each other!" https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-the-refugees-stay-to-fight-for-their-country Edited November 22, 2015 by dialamah
Scotty Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Your source, the website "The Religion of Peace", is stricly anit-Islamic propaganda. I've perused it's pages before. Are you saying they are making up the quotations from the koran? That letter details exactly how ISIS is acting contrary to the teachings of the Koran and of their prophet. It's detailed and specific. And someone's opinion. It is not a direct quotation from the koran or the Hadith. As yourself and some others have demonstrated, it's not just religion that is a powerful tool for clinging to intolerant beliefs. I freely admit to being intolerant towards the violently intolerant. And you? It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Smallc Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Sorry Smallc, I don't understand the question. Do you mean a good alternative to staying and defending their country? There is nothing for them to fight for or against really. Which of the terrible warring factions do they side with? Moderates are often the first to be displaced in a fight like this.
Scotty Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 There is nothing for them to fight for or against really. Which of the terrible warring factions do they side with? Moderates are often the first to be displaced in a fight like this. Where are the moderates in Saudi Arabia where there is no war? It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Smallc Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Where are the moderates in Saudi Arabia where there is no war? Keeping very quiet, as they probably like their necks without noose attached.
WestCoastRunner Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Or perhaps it's you who does not understand that religion is a powerful tool for clinging to intolerant beliefs. Yes, and let's presume these thoughts can't be changed. Edited November 22, 2015 by WestCoastRunner I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Are you saying they are making up the quotations from the koran? And someone's opinion. It is not a direct quotation from the koran or the Hadith. I freely admit to being intolerant towards the violently intolerant. And you? You are intolerant to most things not white and not Canadian. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
ReeferMadness Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Mohammed WROTE the Quran and the Hadith. they are his instructions. He repeatedly ordered the death of unbelievers, and he led by example having murdered at least 45 people. I'm not going to waste my time debating your clearly biased nonsense. Muhammad didn't write the Quran. He dictated to his followers and the Quran was written in bits and pieces and later assembled. There is no way of knowing how accurately that transcription was. Much like the bible. Yes, the Bible contains both history and instruction. Jesus in every way at all times absolutely rejected the use of force and violence. He instructed his followers not to do it, and he led by example. The bible contains scores of instructions from God to kill people, including children. I don't know where the hell you get your information but you clearly need an education. There have been dictatorships that took advantage of the fact that ancient people couldn't read and told them that what they were doing was God's work. There is no aspect of Christianity modern or historical that calls for or allows that kind of behaviour in any way. I don't know where you read your religious fairy tales but maybe you should study a little history. Look at the Crusades. How about the Inquisition? Again, I could go on and on - but you've clearly decided on your biases and I won't waste my time. Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
capricorn Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 If you go fight for your country, ... https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-the-refugees-stay-to-fight-for-their-country If you quote a site you really should use quotes right at the beginning. I read your post and presumed throughout that those were your words. Then I looked at your link and realized what you posted was actually copied and pasted from your link. Just sayin'. I understand the points raised in your link. All I'll say is that I don't agree that it is human nature to run for cover in the face of adversity. "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
ReeferMadness Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 People who swallow the anti-Islam propaganda should read this. Given this violent legacy, religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible. "Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says. From the bible: It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." But Jenkins says, even though the Bible is violent, Christianity and Judaism today are not for the most part. "What happens in all religions as they grow and mature and expand, they go through a process of forgetting of the original violence, and I call this a process of holy amnesia," Jenkins says. Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
dialamah Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Are you saying they are making up the quotations from the koran? And someone's opinion. It is not a direct quotation from the koran or the Hadith. I freely admit to being intolerant towards the violently intolerant. And you? No I am saying that they are picking and choosing what to present in order to "prove" that Islam is 'all bad' and it's adherents are also 'all bad'. If they presented the bad, and the good, and explained how those things clashed -- they could at least be assumed to be trying to be truthful and honest. Refugees aren't "violently intolerant". Muslims aren't "violently intolerant". So why are you against them? ISIS IS violently intolerant; I'm against them.
dialamah Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 And someone's opinion. It is not a direct quotation from the koran or the Hadith. Missed this the first reply. And you clearly did not read the letter - it is filled with quotes from the Koran - both the good and the bad, and it clearly and directly tells Baghdadi all the ways in which he and his organization are NOT FOLLOWING the Koran or hadiths, and how their fatwas are not legal. It is the 'opinion' of 174 Muslim clerics and scholars around the world. It has also been endorsed by hundreds of additional Muslim scholars/clerics. It's a lot more believable and credible than a bunch of scared white guys.
Scotty Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 You are intolerant to most things not white and not Canadian. You know of my life, do you? In truth, you don't even know what my race or religion are. You are simply expressing your extreme hate for those who disagree with your political beliefs. It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
WestCoastRunner Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 You know of my life, do you? In truth, you don't even know what my race or religion are. You are simply expressing your extreme hate for those who disagree with your political beliefs. Your posts speak volumes. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Hal 9000 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 *sighs* The whole point of the letter the quote is taken from is that ISIS is WRONG. The point is that even if their war against (everyone) was ''justified" according to the Koran (and it isn't), killing innocents would be WRONG.And so, tell us what the word "innocent" means. The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
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