Islamophobia in Canada

DogOnPorch · February 7, 2016

I know enough about it to know there is disparity between interpretations of the Quran.

Like what? Give an example of a verse being taken incorrectly.

WestCanMan · February 7, 2016

The native tribes, violent themselves, would say otherwise.

If people aspire to Christianity and follow Jesus's lead that's admirable imo. I say the same for Buddha, and I'm not speaking against anyone else I just don't have the whole list. I'm an atheist myself but I have no lack of respect for people whose aspirations are noble (don't confuse noble with naive though).

It's pretty hard though for mere humans to "walk the walk" for their entire lives when they're up against other humans.

GostHacked · February 7, 2016

Right...all religions are exactly the same. We have a serious problem with Christians making us fat with their bake sales.

What I find confusing from your rhetoric, other than a trollish behaviour, is that you and I agree much on religions and their stupidity, and yet there is this need to be combative in every response. Even when I agree with you, you'd still find a reason to disagree. That takes a lot of dedication and effort. So again, If you are genuine, it is confusing. If not genuine, then well ... (looks back at the last 10 pages)

DogOnPorch · February 7, 2016

What I find confusing from your rhetoric, other than a trollish behaviour, is that you and I agree much on religions and their stupidity, and yet there is this need to be combative in every response. Even when I agree with you, you'd still find a reason to disagree. That takes a lot of dedication and effort. So again, If you are genuine, it is confusing. If not genuine, then well ... (looks back at the last 10 pages)

I am NOT under the illusion that all ideologies are the same.

dialamah · February 7, 2016

Do you mind if i use this quote in my signature?

Yeah, I do.

Hal 9000 · February 7, 2016

Diplomacy is becoming extinct. All terrorism grows from a root cause and in recent years it has mostly been to seek revenge for the civilian deaths of loved ones. Of course there are other reasons as well. Some think they are freedom fighters. If you can't understand them, you cannot establish a dialogue nor any semblance of peace. That leaves only one alternative - killing them. That accelerates the cycle. If my hometown was invaded by barbaric rapists and indiscriminate killers who killed my wife or children, I would definitely seek revenge by any and all means possible as well. http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/index.html

ALL TERRORISM MUST STOP. Communication and reason backed up with deadly force will win the day IMO. In other words... show them both the carrot and the stick and let them choose their own fate.

Not true...and I don't care whatever cite you're using to make that point.

The point of terrorism is to shape political policy, divide people and collapse economy and infrastructure.

WestCanMan · February 7, 2016

I know enough about it to know there is disparity between interpretations of the Quran.

That is not entirely false, but it's not even close to being true.

Like I said there is one interpretation of the Quran that is universally accepted as correct, and that was Mohammed's interpretation. Ask 1.6 Billion Muslims if you don't believe me. None of them will claim to be more perfect followers of the Quran than the prophet who made the revelations.

If you're a muslim and you're called upon to follow Mohammed's lead then you will not be regarded as "peace-loving" by anyone. That's undisputed by anyone who knows Islam.

GostHacked · February 7, 2016

I am NOT under the illusion that all ideologies are the same.

But you are under the illusion that you know which are more violent than others. And most extremists as you and I agree on are not following the texts to the general interpretation of it.

DogOnPorch · February 7, 2016

But you are under the illusion that you know which are more violent than others. And most extremists as you and I agree on are not following the texts to the general interpretation of it.

Which religion is conducting daily terrorist attacks across the globe?

Islam.

Rue · February 7, 2016

Okay children. You both made your points and reached a Mexican stand-off it appears. Can we just agree that religious differences breeds mistrust, hate, and ultimately violence? I was a Christian for 27 years until I learned the bible was edited 3 times by the Vatican. Now I just see religion as a man-made political tool/weapon to win influence over others.

George W. Bush claimed to be a Christian yet he did the most ungodly things possible (authorized the use of chemical weapons on women and children and elders in Fallujah in 2007 for example). There was nothing "Christian" about Bush but he needed Christian voters... so he pretended to be one!

Let's all stop pretending we are better than someone else because of what we believe. We should all be judged by our individual ACTS and not as part of any group. Agreed?

Easy with the children insult. People on both sides of this debate have spent a good deal of time taking the time to debate and some are doing a good job of it.. Its too easy to suddenly show up and take the role of Mr. Middle of the Road better then both of thou know it all. Ease up a tad. I do get your point though.

My problem with Islam not Muslims as individuals is that it is lead by people who have no one central educational institute that trains them. Literally anyone can call themselves an Isamic scholar and claim to be a Mullah or Imam. There is no regulatory body or uniform body of schooling. So we have literally hundreds of thousands of Muslim clergy each with their own interpretations.

Right now violent interpretations of Islam by its leaders lend themselves to justifying anti-Semitism (discrimination against Jews), Christians, Muslims in other schools of thought other than their own, (i.e., Amidyah, Ismaili) Uazidi, Kurds, Berbers, Druze, Bahais, Zoroastrians, Buddhists,Hindus, socialists, communists, labour unionists, gays, females, children, people from certain Muslim countries defined as inferior Muslims, i.e., Bangla Desh, Indonesia, Philippines, African nations (for the purposes of hiring and exploiting cheap labour in i.e., Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait ) are prevalent in governments of sharia law nations

To say all the above is not Islamophobic. Its fact.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Rue

GostHacked · February 7, 2016

Which religion is conducting daily terrorist attacks across the globe?

Islam.

Again, I must defer to 'experts' like you who can define what terror attacks are and what they mean.

WestCoastRunner · February 7, 2016

Information about the ethnicity of criminals in Canada is guarded as tightly as if it were a state secret; such information is impossible to provide. However, I think most British Columbians have heard of cases where young Sikh women have been murdered by family members.

-k

You are singling out Sikh women (who btw are not Islam so not sure what it has to do with this thread) as if they are the majority of murdered women in BC. Why don't you mention the murder of aboriginal women or other western women.

Yes, we have heard of Sikh women being murdered, but we have also heard of other women being murdered as well. Your statement is inflammatory towards all Sikh men.

Here is a list of murdered women in BC (majority are domestic homicide victims) in 2015. Judging by the names, the majority are not Sikh or Islam.

Ladysmith, BC: Rayna Johnson, 55

Vancouver, BC ,Rose Paul, 36 (Aboriginal).

Victoria, BC: Mary Caitlin Walton, 46

Surrey, BC: Salamawit Girma, 25

Richmond, BC: Elaine Leznoff, 66

Mission, BC: Eleanor Anthonysz, 33.

Saanich BC: Juile Cox, 56.

Popkum, BC: The Janzen family

Surrey, BC: Cady Quaw, 23 Aboriginal

Richmond, BC: Redelma Belisario, 62

New Westminster, BC: Charan Kaur Dhandwar, 79 (random killing)

Waterdown, BC: Delores Brown, 19, Aboriginal.

2016

100 Mile House, BC: Vesna Dumstrey-Soos, 37

I should add, that this mention of Sikh women being murdered seems to normalize the killing of western women but the killing of Sikh women is 'different', which it clearly isn't.

http://ohegarty.blogspot.ca/p/counting-dead-women-canada-2015.html

Edited February 7, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

On Guard for Thee · February 7, 2016

Like what? Give an example of a verse being taken incorrectly.

How would I know what is correct or incorrect? I just know that various Arabic speaking scholars have various notions on their interpretations.

Rue · February 7, 2016

Right...all religions are exactly the same. We have a serious problem with Christians making us fat with their bake sales.

Religions of course are not the same. Humans do have a propensity to take all religions and use them to justify violence and war it seems.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Rue

DogOnPorch · February 7, 2016

Again, I must defer to 'experts' like you who can define what terror attacks are and what they mean.

I have only one experience with terrorism directly as a young lad. That doesn't make me an expert.

DogOnPorch · February 7, 2016

Religions of course are not the same. Humans do have a propensity to take all religions and use them to justify violence and war it seems.

As I mentioned, Islam is a big f-you to the other 'book religions' who pretty much thought Big Mo an idiot. Mohammad was a very insecure man.

dialamah · February 7, 2016

I'm skeptical of whether many plan to go home again later. Interviews with Syrians I have seen almost universally include talk of how excited the refugees are to start a new life here, become Canadians, get jobs and educations, etc etc. Justin Trudeau made it clear that he envisions these as future Canadians, not temporary visitors.

I think the defining difference between refugee and immigrant is the reason they left home, not how long they plan on staying.

-k

Yup, that they are fleeing something in their own country is another defining factor. And, regardless of what some Syrians might say when asked in front of a camera, people who work with refugees every single day, say that refugees would prefer to go home than settle in Canada or anywhere else. As a matter of fact, they are so attached to their homeland, I seem to recall we had difficulty finding enough people willing to come to Canada.

WestCoastRunner · February 7, 2016

Yup, that they are fleeing something in their own country is another defining factor. And, regardless of what some Syrians might say when asked in front of a camera, people who work with refugees every single day, say that refugees would prefer to go home than settle in Canada or anywhere else. As a matter of fact, they are so attached to their homeland, I seem to recall we had difficulty finding enough people willing to come to Canada.

I am pretty sure that organizations providing information to potential volunteers would have a pretty good handle on refugees. Congrats to you for reaching out! Canadians have been phenomenal in providing help to these refugees.

dialamah · February 7, 2016

Information about the ethnicity of criminals in Canada is guarded as tightly as if it were a state secret; such information is impossible to provide. However, I think most British Columbians have heard of cases where young Sikh women have been murdered by family members.

I recall ten or so years ago when the Conservative Party were making their "outreach to ethnic Canadians"... it consisted of advertising in local foreign-language newspapers about how the Conservatives share your values, how their communities could trust the Conservatives to fight against gay marriage. Maybe Harper and Kenney had them pegged wrong... but I suspect they were uncomfortably close to the truth.

I read this news article yesterday in which British Muslim women take the Labour Party to task for pandering to patriarchal attitudes in the Muslim community.

I think it's clear that there's an entrenched sexism in Muslim cultures. Muslims are well established in Britain, for much longer and in much greater numbers than here in Canada. And if the Muslim community there continues to see problems like this, why do we think Canada's experience will be different? I think the main difference between here and there is that here, there isn't a sufficient number of votes to be gained by pandering to conservative Muslims.

-k

And isn't it great that these Muslim women now live in a country where they can object, and be heard. Isn't it great that these men who still seek to marginalize women can't just do so - no questions asked.

There's entrenched sexism in most cultures. Even cultures that claim to have eliminated that particular vice still have 'slut-shaming' and 'boys will be boys' kinds of cultural attitudes. Fortunately, since 1983 in Canada raping one's wife has been illegal so at least the Muslim women we welcome to Canada will have that same protection, along with protection from being battered and killed by their spouses (inasmuch as it works, which isn't very well). Like that little Afghani girl I saw yesterday: she'll be able to grow up knowing that she's important, and that men do not have the right to assault her.

Western politicians pandering to misogynistic elements of society, whatever color/creed they are, should be condemned. That cannot be blamed on Islam or Muslims, so why do you use that as an argument to be 'cautious' about Muslims coming to Canada?

Also, you haven't provided any evidence that wife beating, assault, etc., has increased at all in Canada among non-immigrants as a result of accepting immigrants from conservative, misogynistic cultures.

eyeball · February 8, 2016

What's missing is a connection to current affairs.

That's the price of ducking responsibility for the modern root causes and affairs that occurred within living memory.

Rue · February 8, 2016

Dialamah I am not sure what world you live in but in my world Muslim women don't come to Canada and presto isn't it great they become liberated and equal. The transition may take 3,4 generations or may never happen. Seriously, this is not some fairy tale with a magic instant happy ending.

Domestic violence, alcoholism, extremist political views and hatred of Christianity, Judaism, Siekhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, marriages with young minors and first cousins, all continues. Children of the next generation will be caught between old and new.

You remember there was a time when Europeans and Canadians began adapting Romanian babies left in institutions when the Coucescu regime failed and fell? Oh how cute. Blonde haired, blue eyed babies abandoned, lets take them in.

They were sold as trendy little dolls to have. Then the development disabilities showed up-the permanent lack of brain development causing an autism type disability dooming them to institutions. No one saw it coming.

What is it that will get you to concede that we may have not properly prepared for the medical illnesses, the genetic diseases, the psychiatric illnesses that are coming in? and will show up in the next generations?

This notion you just dump Syrians into Canada as the guilty trend cause of the month is what some of us challenge.

You have people on this thread who can't even wrap their head around the fact of what terrorism is and want to play liberal semantics as to what it means and you think you will get them to admit that the refugees coming in have mental illnesses and diseases we need to treat?

Tell me-you want to save such women? Will you be following up and educating their husbands? Will you be explaining to them that having 7 children and no job will cause problems?

Will you be the one to tell them after the photo ops and smiling liberal faces go away how to unblock their toilets or that their son Ahmed who takes priority over his mother is not practicing safe sex and is flunking out of school? Well?

I doubt it. While Ahmed spreads v.d. and hey maybe aids, his parents will have pulled him from school because it has sex education in the curriculum. That's the world I live in.

I would argue the very people who phrase the world Islamophobia are never around to deal with the social misery they help promote (unintentionally, they do mean well) by creating an unrealistic sanitized rose coloured glasses standard of tolerance and unlimited acceptance of the values in their culture that directly conflict with our standard of life and values in Canada.

With due respect the belief that anyone can come to Canada and presto is Canadian takes for granted what becoming a Canadian is and how we got to the point where we now are.

The Canadians who built this country were not given free homes and benefits nor did they bring belief systems with them that defined other peoples as inferior to them.

In my world we have very real social adjustment issues, ugly ones Trudeau and McCallum won't be around to deal with but many Canadians will as they clash with our laws and social customs and fail to assimilate.

Realistic refugee programs don't just dump the trend cause of the month refugees in Canada, ignoring other refuges and having no planning which is what Trudeau has done. Its not islamophobia to point that out.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rue

Rue · February 8, 2016

On Guard For Thee I think your position which states that because you disagree with how others define terrorism or the Koran is a mechanism to avoid discussion. I do not believe for a second you don't know what the Koran states and how its used or what terrorism is.

It is my contention you play this " like my colour red is not your colour red its just a subjective illusion we both manufacture" argument is an evasive avoidance technique to avoid having to admit terrorism and extremist Islam exists.

I witnessed terrorism. I don't need to smoke a joint and get into some bizarre semantic maneuver over wow man I mean that body part splayed on the wall real man is like an illusion man, like wow man we need to get to the Western colonial root cause of how that kidney ended up there man.

Save the navel gazing. Its for sheltered people trying to shut out the world's smells and sounds. Like wow man the idiot telling Allah Akbar before he detonates himself is real man. Like wow man he is not a root cause man.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rue

dialamah · February 8, 2016

Dialamah I am not sure what world you live in but in my world Muslim women don't come to Canada and presto isn't it great they become liberated and equal. The transition may take 3,4 generations or may never happen. Seriously, this is not some fairy tale with a magic instant happy ending.

Yet, the poster I responded to was talking about Muslim women in the UK objecting to something men were doing. Surely, that's got to be a better outcome than still being in a country where they're barely allowed to leave the house, let alone object and be heard around the world. Yes, taking advantage of freedom and understanding one's own personal rights takes time, and no doubt it starts with the second generation more than the first. But at least it starts.

Early on the Liberal government did acknowledge that the refugees would have health issues, including mental health, that they would be screened for and if appropriate, provided treatment and counselling. Those issues are not being ignored. In the volunteer orientation I attended, the difficulties people have adjusting was specifically covered, and volunteers are asked to commit to at least a year to offer mental/emotional support to these people as well as help them adjust to Canadian life. Your assumption that everyone who supports the refugee are a bunch of naive do-gooders with rose-colored glasses who don't know what they're doing is just wrong.

And again, you've suggested that refugees are dirty and diseased with no proof other than your own ugly prejudice. The prevalence rate of AIDS in Syria is .01%; in Canada, it's .2%.

The Canadians who built this country were not given free homes and benefits nor did they bring belief systems with them that defined other peoples as inferior to them.

The Canadians who built this country were given free land, clothes, and equipment. They did bring their own belief systems with them and certainly did define others as 'inferior' to them. Just ask the First Nations people who were put onto reservations and into the residential schools. Just ask the early East Indian immigrants, referred to as ragheads and widely considered 'smelly', or the early Chinese settlers, relegated the most menial and dangerous jobs during the railroad building across Canada. Maybe you need to stop looking at history through rose-colored glasses.

Edited February 8, 2016 by dialamah

Argus · February 8, 2016

Yet, the poster I responded to was talking about Muslim women in the UK objecting to something men were doing. Surely, that's got to be a better outcome than still being in a country where they're barely allowed to leave the house, let alone object and be heard around the world.

No one is arguing it isn't better for them to be here. It's better for almost EVERYONE from the third world to be here. The question is whether it's good for US to have them here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3395390/The-Arabic-gang-rape-Taharrush-phenomenon-sees-women-surrounded-groups-men-crowds-sexually-assaulted-spread-Europe.html

eyeball · February 8, 2016

No one is arguing it isn't better for them to be here. It's better for almost EVERYONE from the third world to be here. The question is whether it's good for US to have them here.

The more important question is whether it's good to have them under the desperate circumstances they're facing which includes the increasing bigotry and racism of phobic extreme right-wing reactionaries in the countries receiving them.

This question was posed way back when the policies that led to where we are were being implemented. As I recall the right-wing was in full support of those policies and accused anyone who thought otherwise of being terrorist sympathisers.

We deserve every single refugee we've helped produce.