On Guard for Thee Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 There's no religious text telling them to do that. Just their brain and other part. Which makes it even less excusable.
Shady Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 Which makes it even less excusable. No, none of it is excusable.
dialamah Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 You can't access National Post? Why? Are you in another country or something, one with strict censorship rules? Maybe a Muslim country? Because they want money.
Rue Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) I agree with Argus in 2252 except for the part about moral superiority. I can only speak to my own morality. Edited January 11, 2016 by Rue
hitops Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) A primary difference between Christianity and Islam that may matter to you, is that Christianity is a mandate for personal morality imposed on oneself, whereas Islam legitimizes enforced group morality. One endorses the consent of the individual to exercise control over their own person, and the other endorses the imposition of morality and control over others with or without their consent. Edited January 11, 2016 by hitops
Rue Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 Dialamah in direct reponse to your post 2550, I never doubted that. My only interest is in criticizing certain Muslims who hide behind their religion to legitimize what they do. I am not here to blame innocent Muslims. I have no interest in that. In fact I deleted 4 responses to avoid that appearance and because I believe your response in its simplicity acknowledged our mutual frustration when discussing this matter. Neither of us is here to hate or justify it. It certainly is a complex topic though.
dialamah Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 Dialamah in direct reponse to your post 2550, I never doubted that. My only interest is in criticizing certain Muslims who hide behind their religion to legitimize what they do. I am not here to blame innocent Muslims. I have no interest in that. In fact I deleted 4 responses to avoid that appearance and because I believe your response in its simplicity acknowledged our mutual frustration when discussing this matter. Neither of us is here to hate or justify it. I too hold the guilty responsible for what they do. And my heart breaks for those who are innocent, who want a better life, who really have no interest in forcing Islam on anyone, who don't care if someone is gay/transgendered/Christian/Atheist, who just want to live in peace and security, to get on with their life, and let others get on with theirs. That is the attitude of all the Muslims I've met on a personal level. And despite what governments or extremists do or claim, I think that is most Muslims around the world. Still, they face the wrath of those who assume otherwise, who take their information from the very worst of what people can do or think, and apply it without question to more than 1 billion people, who are both blamed for and victimized by Islamic extremism. It certainly is a complex topic though. It is a complex topic, and it's not nearly as simple as "Islam makes them do it." If the Quran teaches primarily tolerance and acceptance, and a certain faction decide they want to use military means to impose their will on others, how are they going to gain recruits? They have no choice but to use the same book to persuade people that military/terrorist actions are both justified and required; fortunately, holy books tend to be so open to interpretation that you can "prove" almost anything you want to by cherry-picking. Too many Muslims fall for it, and as evidenced around the world, so do too many non-Muslims. One cannot ignore the effect of the politics in that region, including the effects of Western intervention, to simplistically blame everything on "Islam". Poverty, ignorance, oppression - I think those are much more relevant to the discussion of why there are terrorists than is what any religion teaches. It's also more useful in terms of figuring out how to eliminate terrorism. After all, if the conviction is that Islam creates Terrorists, then logically the only option is to eliminate Muslims - aka, Genocide. I have no trouble agreeing that people from that *region* have different societal and cultural customs, that they are much more like fundamental Christians than freewheeling non-religious Westerners. But I don't think that means we shouldn't help refugees; if they allow their personal beliefs lead them into committing crimes, then they should be punished appropriately and perhaps, as long as they haven't attained the status of 'citizen', sent back. Yes, there is a risk that some percentage of them or their children/grandchildren will radicalize at some point, but as far as I can tell the risk is pretty small - even in the 'hotbed' of radicalization, the number of extremists is less than 1% of the entire population. I admit, Europe is facing a problem, but since we are much more able to screen refugees, and are not faced with millions of them essentially walking from there to here, I do not believe our situation is at all similar to Europe's. Anyway, thanks for clarifying how you feel. I admit, and no doubt because of my sister being a Muslim, I may not always 'read' as clearly as I might no matter how hard I try to keep my emotions out of it.
Argus Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 If the Quran teaches primarily tolerance and acceptance, But it doesn't... "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted January 11, 2016 Report Posted January 11, 2016 But it doesn't... It does. You just refuse to see it. Examples of Islamic teachings of tolerance and acceptance. More here and here. “There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error.” (-The Cow, 2:256). "O mankind! We created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know and honor each other (not that you should despise one another). Indeed the most honorable of you in the sight of God is the most righteous." Chapter 49, Verse 13 “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud) Why extremists are not following Islamic teachings, here and here. Why abrogation does not justify jihad, here and here. Examples of Muslims speaking out against terrorists, here, here and here. All of this info has been posted before, but you ignore it. Like ISIS and similar extremists, you and a few others here prefer to focus on certain out-of-context Quranic verses, hadiths, etc. to support the claim that Muslims must wage holy war. You may not be out there killing people, but you are certainly supporting those who do by continuing to believe in and spread their message. Like ISIS and similar extremists, you and a few others deny those Muslims who practice and promote peace and tolerance. ISIS kills them; you pretend they don't exist. The Muslims who fight extremism are victimized by both those who would kill them, and those who would blame them. Niether you nor ISIS will give them a chance.
Hudson Jones Posted January 11, 2016 Author Report Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Allow me to spend a few minutes to rip your terrible argument into pieces: In Denmark, statistics show that individuals from Muslim countries make up eight of the top nine places on the list for criminals;2012 figures show that Somalis were sentenced for crimes, including innumerable sexual assaults, almost ten times more often according to official statistics, despite the fact that immigrants and their descendants account for less than 10 per cent of the population; “Iraqis, Iranians, Turks and Somalis are dramatically overrepresented among convicted rapists source: http://www.infowars.com/feminists-mute-on-muslim-rape-epidemic-sweeping-europe/ Your source is an opinion article on Infowars. The link on Infowars, with the supposed Denmark statistics goes to a web site that does not display any of those figures. It's just a list of opinion pieces. Let me know if you find these statistics, directly from the Danish government. In Norway, police statistics show that in the capital city of Oslo, 100 percent of assault rapes between strangers were committed by immigrant, non-Western males; nine out of 10 of their victims were native Norwegian women source: http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2011/august/culture-crisis-norway-tackles-muslim-immigration-/?mobile=false The bible web site has no statistics. Just opinions that were not backed up by any stats. This is what you want to pass as your sources? In Sweden, it now is said to have second highest number of rapes in the world, after South Africa, at a rate of 53.2 per 100,000 which is a rate six times higher than the United States; 1 out of every 4 Swedish women will be raped...Sweden has imported huge numbers of Muslim immigrants with catastrophic effect.......Muslims represented as high as 77 percent of the rape case perpetrator; a major increase in rape cases coincided with a major increase in Muslim immigration; in Stockholm this summer there was an average of 5 rapes a day keeping in mind Stockholm has evolved to a city that is one-third immigrant and is between a fifth and a quarter Muslim source: http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/175434/1-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-sexual-assaults-daniel-greenfield The reason why rapes in Sweden jumped, is not because of immigration. It's because the definition of rape in Sweden changed. Many rapes occur between partners. So for example, in Canada, when a woman goes to the police to report rape by her partner repeatedly, this is counted as 1 occurrence. When a woman in Sweden reports this, they count each individual rape occurrence by the partner as a separate rape. This is just one of the reasons why rapes in Sweden suddenly went up: The way the crime itself is defined and various related aspects of the judicial process affect the registration of offences in the official statistics. The concept of rape can be defined narrowly or in a more expansive manner. In Sweden, the definition of rape has been successively widened over the years, leading to an ever larger number of sexual assaults being classified as rape. For example, in 1992 a legislative change came into force which shifted the dividing line between sexual assault and rape. This legislative change resulted in about a 25% increase in the level of registered rape offences. Changes in the legal process has also affected the number of reports. Until 1984, rape was only prosecuted in cases where the victim was prepared to press charges, with an additional restriction of a six months time limit. This resulted in numerous cases of rape and sexual assault going unreported. Widely differing legal systems, offence definitions, terminological variations, recording practices and statistical conventions makes any cross-national comparison on rape statistics difficult. Large-scale victimisation surveys have been presented as a more reliable indicator Link This is why there is a spike of rapes in Sweden. Leave it up to Rue and his sources like frontpagemag or infowar opinion pieces to try to twist and push for more Islamophobia. In the United Kingdom, in the year 2012, it emerged that over a thousand mostly white young girls in the northern England town of Rotherham were systematically groomed, trafficked, beaten and sexually abused by rape gangs consisting of mainly Pakistani Muslim men The local Labour government council and the police covered up this horror because they were afraid of being characterized as racist or politically incorrect." source: http://www.infowars.com/feminists-mute-on-muslim-rape-epidemic-sweeping-europe/ This was terrible see. I was traveling in England when the news came out. So should all Pakistani Muslims be seen as child rapists because of this group of degenerate assholes? Should all whites and Christians be seen as pedophile rapists? Because of this: Countrywide gang of paedophiles 'roamed UK to rape babies and pre-school children as their friends watched on the Internet' Here are some of the main baby rapers' names: Stansfield, 34, from Hampshire, was found guilty of conspiracy to rape a child under 13. Denham was cleared of the same charge. Five others pleaded guilty to offences including rape of a child and conspiracy to rape at an earlier hearing. They are: Robin Hollyson, 30, from Bedfordshire Christopher Knight, 35, from Manchester David Harsley, 51, from Hull Matthew Lisk, 32, from East Sussex Adam Toms, 33, from Somerset A bunch of white guys. What does this say about white Christians? What about this news: Seven men have admitted their part in one of the world's biggest internet pornography networks. They were among 107 arrested after police in 12 countries smashed the child pornography ring known as the Wonderland Club. Names? Ahmed Ali, 30, a taxi driver from Tulse Hill, south London Ian Baldock, 31, a computer consultant from St Leonards, East Sussex Andrew Barlow, 25, unemployed, of Bletchley in Milton Keynes Gavin Seagers, 29, a computer consultant from Dartford, Kent Antoni Skinner, 36, a computer consultant from Cheltenham Frederick Stephens, 46, a taxi driver from Hayes, Middlesex David Hines, 30, unemployed, from Bognor Regis in West Sussex Steven Ellis, 40, unemployed, from Norwich 7 out of 8 of the guys are white with Christian background. What does this say about white people and Christians? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Edited January 11, 2016 by Hudson Jones When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Rue Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I will ignore H, Jones' childish remarks trying to attack me personally as hating Muslims and respond only to his other comments. I will start with his comments on Sweden. He in fact wentto wikepedia, typed in Rape in Sweden, went to the 3rd paragraph, cherry picked a segment of the article discussing change in Swedish reporting practices as to rape. What he of course also did was ignore the other part of the article that completely and utterly repudiates his comments about Muslims in Sweden and rape statistics. The portion he deliberately ignored I now provide and ask you to decide for yourself whether its relevant: "Two reports from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (BRÅ) are relevant to the rate of rape among immigrants to Sweden and their descendants. The latest published report that indicates the association between immigrants and rape was published in 2005 and revealed that from 1997 to 2001 foreign born individuals were 5.5 times more likely to be charged of rape than individuals born in Sweden to two Swedish parents and that foreign born individuals from all regions, apart from East Asia, committed sexual assaults at rates up to 5.3 times greater than that of individuals born in Sweden to two Swedish parents.[36] The report doesn't break down the foreign born category by country of origin despite the fact that country of origin has been found to be highly predictive of crime rates in other Nordic countries.[37] However, a 1996 report by the BRÅ did break down rate of rape convictions by country of origin, using data from 1985 to 1989 it found particularly high rates of rape convictions among certain immigrant groups. Among the highest rates we individuals born in Iraq, North Africa (Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia), Africa (excluding Uganda and the North African countries) were convicted of rape at rates 20, 23, 17, and 18 times greater than individuals born in Sweden respectively.[18] Although, according to crime victim surveys from the BRÅ, the actual rate of sex crimes has been more or less unchanged in Sweden between 2005 and 2014, despite the fact that immigration has increased 36-Martens, P., & Holmberg, S. (2005). Brottslighet bland personer födda i Sverige och i utlandet. Brottsförebyggande rådet (BRÅ). https://www.bra.se/bra/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/2005-12-14-brottslighet-bland-personer-fodda-i-sverige-och-i-utlandet.htmlPages. 34-36, 40-42 37-Kirkegaard, Emil O. W. (2014). "Criminality among Norwegian immigrant populations". Open Differential Psychology.during the same time period. 18- Jump up to: a b Ahlberg, Jan (1996). "Invandrares och invandrares barns brottslighet" (PDF). I believe the above which H. Jones ignored completely repudiates his comments on Sweden. Here is another source that provides further info as to the reports and statistics noted above as to rape in Sweden and dirercly contradicts what H. Jones said: https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/ The tactic of H. Jones is to either insult me as a racist or the articles as only baseless opinions but they were not they were based on the above. Insulting me or the sources with name calling won't change the statistics H. Jones deliberately ignores. con. next post Edited January 12, 2016 by Rue
Hal 9000 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I too hold the guilty responsible for what they do. And my heart breaks for those who are innocent, who want a better life, who really have no interest in forcing Islam on anyone, who don't care if someone is gay/transgendered/Christian/Atheist, who just want to live in peace and security, to get on with their life, and let others get on with theirs. That is the attitude of all the Muslims I've met on a personal level. And despite what governments or extremists do or claim, I think that is most Muslims around the world. Still, they face the wrath of those who assume otherwise, who take their information from the very worst of what people can do or think, and apply it without question to more than 1 billion people, who are both blamed for and victimized by Islamic extremism. It is a complex topic, and it's not nearly as simple as "Islam makes them do it." If the Quran teaches primarily tolerance and acceptance, and a certain faction decide they want to use military means to impose their will on others, how are they going to gain recruits? They have no choice but to use the same book to persuade people that military/terrorist actions are both justified and required; fortunately, holy books tend to be so open to interpretation that you can "prove" almost anything you want to by cherry-picking. Too many Muslims fall for it, and as evidenced around the world, so do too many non-Muslims. One cannot ignore the effect of the politics in that region, including the effects of Western intervention, to simplistically blame everything on "Islam". Poverty, ignorance, oppression - I think those are much more relevant to the discussion of why there are terrorists than is what any religion teaches. It's also more useful in terms of figuring out how to eliminate terrorism. After all, if the conviction is that Islam creates Terrorists, then logically the only option is to eliminate Muslims - aka, Genocide. I have no trouble agreeing that people from that *region* have different societal and cultural customs, that they are much more like fundamental Christians than freewheeling non-religious Westerners. But I don't think that means we shouldn't help refugees; if they allow their personal beliefs lead them into committing crimes, then they should be punished appropriately and perhaps, as long as they haven't attained the status of 'citizen', sent back. Yes, there is a risk that some percentage of them or their children/grandchildren will radicalize at some point, but as far as I can tell the risk is pretty small - even in the 'hotbed' of radicalization, the number of extremists is less than 1% of the entire population. I admit, Europe is facing a problem, but since we are much more able to screen refugees, and are not faced with millions of them essentially walking from there to here, I do not believe our situation is at all similar to Europe's. Anyway, thanks for clarifying how you feel. I admit, and no doubt because of my sister being a Muslim, I may not always 'read' as clearly as I might no matter how hard I try to keep my emotions out of it. Would you get off of your "1% of muslims are bad" crap. Maybe this will give you a better idea of the numbers, not that you'll believe it, but you'll at least understand where some of us are coming from. By The Numbers - The Untold Story of Muslim Opinions & Demographics Edited January 12, 2016 by Charles Anthony video edit The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Hal 9000 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 I can't access National Post. I do wonder why, if there were so many people and so many perpetrators, why no witnesses are reported to have helped the victims or tried to detain the attackers. I hope this article overstates the actual number of perpetrators, although 40 men managing to harass/attack 300+ people stretches credibility. Maybe you can access BBC. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386 The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
tworivers Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 I think that as far as humans are concerned, I don't think there is much difference, you are correct. I think there is a problem with terrorists worldwide. I think Europe has a serious problem with the number of refugees coming into their countries. I think there is a problem with refugees worldwide. I don't see this as simplistically an "Islamic" problem, and object to that characterization. The charge is made that Islamists have been fighting among themselves for 700 years, and fighting others for as long. Yet, we in the Western world have also been fighting among ourselves and with others for as long: two world wars, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan. Farther back, we fought the British, and we fought the Americans. Before that, Europeans had constant wars, and how long exactly did the Protestants and Catholics fight each other in Ireland? How can we claim, with a straight face, that any other country or culture surpasses us in violent behavior? Still, in between our various wars, we've had decades of peace from time to time. The same has happened in the Middle East, and among Islamic countries, they've had both wars and periods of peace. Another charge leveled against the "Muslim culture" is that of misogyny and lack of rights for gays/transgendered persons. It's true, but it's also true that in our culture and despite the efforts made, we still experience misogynistic attitudes and behavior. We still have issues related to discrimination of gays and of transgendered persons. I agree that we are much more tolerant/accepting than Middle Eastern countries, but such people still have a pretty hard row to hoe. And, in these Middle Eastern (and other) countries, it's not just the Muslims who embrace these beliefs, but Christians and certain Jews as well. There are also many people - Christian, Muslim and Jews - who believe in and work toward gender equality, who do not accept a culture of misogyny and discrimination, who promote tolerance and acceptance whenever they can. An example is Egypt, which is currently running a public relations campaign to reduce tensions between Coptic Christians and Muslims, and Sisi who has, for the second year in a row, gone to a Coptic Church for a Christmas mass. Unfortunately, terrorists and alarmists make the efforts of these people that much harder. I will ask you to go back and reread history again as you seem to have missed a few centuries. Islam is a huge problem , like Sharia law or many of there beliefs that are way outdated from this world. I find the hypocrisy of Islam is like looking at the Spanish Inquisition except it is now 2016.
kimmy Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 The reason why rapes in Sweden jumped, is not because of immigration. It's because the definition of rape in Sweden changed. Many rapes occur between partners. So for example, in Canada, when a woman goes to the police to report rape by her partner repeatedly, this is counted as 1 occurrence. When a woman in Sweden reports this, they count each individual rape occurrence by the partner as a separate rape. This is just one of the reasons why rapes in Sweden suddenly went up: The way the crime itself is defined and various related aspects of the judicial process affect the registration of offences in the official statistics. The concept of rape can be defined narrowly or in a more expansive manner. In Sweden, the definition of rape has been successively widened over the years, leading to an ever larger number of sexual assaults being classified as rape. For example, in 1992 a legislative change came into force which shifted the dividing line between sexual assault and rape. This legislative change resulted in about a 25% increase in the level of registered rape offences. Changes in the legal process has also affected the number of reports. Until 1984, rape was only prosecuted in cases where the victim was prepared to press charges, with an additional restriction of a six months time limit. This resulted in numerous cases of rape and sexual assault going unreported. Widely differing legal systems, offence definitions, terminological variations, recording practices and statistical conventions makes any cross-national comparison on rape statistics difficult. Large-scale victimisation surveys have been presented as a more reliable indicator Link From your same link: However, a 1996 report by the BRÅ did break down rate of rape convictions by country of origin, using data from 1985 to 1989 it found particularly high rates of rape convictions among certain immigrant groups. Among the highest rates we individuals born in Iraq, North Africa (Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia), Africa (excluding Uganda and the North African countries), and Romanian/Bulgaria who were convicted of rape at rates 20, 23, 17, and 18 times greater than individuals born in Sweden respectively. Regarding the Pakistani child prostitution rings in England, members of that community are willing to agree that there is a cultural aspect to what happened: The view of some Islamic preachers towards white women can be appalling. They encourage their followers to believe that these women are habitually promiscuous, decadent, and sleazy—sins which are made all the worse by the fact that they are kaffurs or non-believers. Their dress code, from miniskirts to sleeveless tops, is deemed to reflect their impure and immoral outlook. According to this mentality, these white women deserve to be punished for their behaviour by being exploited and degraded.[15] -Dr Taj Hargey, imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang#Reaction_and_public_debate The novelist Bina Shah has criticised a culture of racism, misogyny, tribalism and sexual vulgarity among men "who hail from the poorest, least educated, and most closed-off parts of Pakistan". Julie Siddiqi, the executive director of the Islamic Society of Britain, has called for a change in the male dominance at the top of many Muslim organisations which may have contributed to their community's silence on grooming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang#Reaction_and_public_debate Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused elders of the Pakistani community of "burying their heads in the sand" on the matter of sexual grooming. He said that of convictions involving child sexual exploitation, 87% were of British Pakistani men and it was a significant problem for that community. He said the actions of criminals who thought "white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused" were "bringing shame on our community." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang#Response_from_Muslim_spokesmen -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
kimmy Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 One of the most shocking things about the British prostitution scandal, aside from the sheer scale of it-- numerous groups involved, with several dozen men in all-- and the number of victims-- believed to be around 1400-- and the length of time it went on-- 16 years-- is that the police and politicians were more concerned with covering it up than they were with doing anything to stop it. They were afraid of being accused of racism. They were afraid that if the information got out, it would fuel racism. They did their best to deny there was even a problem. And on a very similar note, Swedish police have fessed up to hiding information from the public regarding rampant sexual assaults at a Stockholm music festival. The behavior is the same as that described in the Cologne assaults: women found themselves encircled by groups of men described as having "foreign backgrounds." To me, the real money quote: "Some times we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Ågren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to the anti-immigration party in Parliament. These guys, like the Rothenham councillors, clearly think that maintaining pleasant optics is more important than the safety of the people who count on the police and their elected officials. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
kimmy Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 I too hold the guilty responsible for what they do. And my heart breaks for those who are innocent, who want a better life, who really have no interest in forcing Islam on anyone, who don't care if someone is gay/transgendered/Christian/Atheist, who just want to live in peace and security, to get on with their life, and let others get on with theirs. And what breaks my heart is that womens' safety has been put at risk by this "gotta break a few eggs" attitude of their elected officials. I have no trouble agreeing that people from that *region* have different societal and cultural customs, that they are much more like fundamental Christians than freewheeling non-religious Westerners. But I don't think that means we shouldn't help refugees; if they allow their personal beliefs lead them into committing crimes, then they should be punished appropriately and perhaps, as long as they haven't attained the status of 'citizen', sent back. To me, that seems about as sensible as hosting a mushroom tasting party when you don't know which mushrooms are safe and which ones are poisonous. Certainly once people start keeling over you know which mushrooms to stop serving your guests, but it's a little late for the ones who've already been poisoned. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
eyeball Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Yes, let's try it your way and let Europe's hard-boiled right-wing figure out what to do next. I'm sure they'll have a solution. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
poochy Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Yes, let's try it your way and let Europe's hard-boiled right-wing figure out what to do next. I'm sure they'll have a solution. Of course you're not really making a nazi reference, the insinuation that anyone, including whoever it was that you were responding to, is wanting it their way, that being the way of those seen as the historically most far right (though some debate that), would be an incredibly unreasonable thing to write and clearly not something anyone would do, even in a back handed fashion. Perhaps you should elaborate on who they really are and what the solution would be so we can clearly associate the solution with those here who want it that way, lest their be any confusion.
Rue Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 In regards to Denmark there is a very real phenomena arising from Muslim migrants coming to Denmark and cultural adjustment issues co-related to rape. A report and statistics from Statistics Denmark as to the above are public domain and were conducted in 2010 and can be found at http://10news.dk/?p=320. They showed Iranians, Turks and Somalis were dramatically over represented among convicted rapists in Denmark, i.e., more than half of convicted rapists in 2010 had immigrant backgrounds and that more than one out of three convicted of rape was either an immigrant or a descendant of immigrants, i.e., 156 of the 450 convicted rapists since 2004 had an immigrant background keeping in mind mmigrants and their descendants account for only ten percent of the Danish population. Crying racism at anyone who raises the above to avoid discussing the phenomena won't make it go away. Attacking me as anti Muslim as H jones does for raising it is purile because what I think is not the issue BUT it is considered such a serious issue, the government of Denmark now along with Danish language lessons is requiring immigrants to undergo sex education training. So is Norway for that matter which I will discuss in a seaerate response. This issue is well known and even back in 2002 it was openly being debated. In an article you can find at http://www.danielpipes.org/450/something-rotten-in-denmark, Pipes and another writer both accused of hating Muslims because they wrote an article as to high Muslim rape rates in Denmark explained how they arrived at their conclusion stating: "our conclusion that Muslims "make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists," saying that because Danish statistics do not correlate religion with crime, this assertion "is without any basis in fact." Statistics Denmark does, however, produce numbers on immigrants from Third World countries and their descendants, which it reports makes up 5% of the population; and it is known that Muslims make up four-fifths of this element. The latest police figures show that 76.5% of convicted rapists in Copenhagen belong to that 5% of the population, and from that we drew our understated conclusion." Here is an example of an article dealing with the pheomena in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Europe, that I can understand will cause people like H Jones to cry racist: http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html I would argue its crucial the issues it raises are spoken with openly and calmly because the knee jerk exercise of screaming racist won't make them go away but will fuel racism perhaps if they are not openly dealt with. I concur with the article in its reference to, "Depression, schizophrenia, and various forms of psychosis have also been conclusively linked to the offspring of consanguineous marriages, and Sennels noted the fact that in Denmark “immigrant patients are stressing the psychiatric system and are strongly overrepresented among insane criminals: “In Sct. Hans Hospital, which has the biggest ward for clinically insane criminals in Denmark, more than 40 percent of the patients have an immigrant background” (Kristeligt Dagblad, 26/6 2007 “Ethnic minorities overrepresented among the criminal insane”)." Is it racist to openly acknowledge that Muslims are over represented in the above statistics? I sit racist to say there is a higher degree of in-breeding in Muslim societities due to the marrying of cousins? I argue its not racist, but will in fact combat racism if we discuss it and use it in a context not to avoid discussing problems but solving them. Now what I find sad are these statistics reported in the above article: 1-Non-Western immigrants are more than 300 percent more likely to fail the Danish army’s intelligence test than native Danes. 2-Two thirds of all immigrant school children with Arabic backgrounds are illiterate after 10 years in the Danish school system. 3-Immigrant children are overrepresented on Copenhagen’s schools for retarded children and children with physical handicaps. … 51 percent of the children on the three schools in Copenhagen for children with physical and mental handicaps have immigrant backgrounds and in one of the schools the amount is 70 percent. Those are issues we need to openly discuss. I don't think they are a reason to hate Muslims and certainly they fan arguments to argue against Muslims coming into Denmark however the reality is the problem exists, its getting bigger, and it won't go away-it has to be managed. Trying to avoid it in the name of political appropriateness will not help the above children.
Rue Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Finally here is an article questioning how Muslim rape rates are used: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/debunked-zionist-and-islamophobic-libel-rape-epidemic-muslims-norway I deliberately provide it because I think it raises valid concerns but where I think it fails is where H Jones has failed. By continually trying to blame Zionists and Israel and scream out the word Islamophobe at anyone and everyone, it dettracts from the argument it makes. This issue has nothing to do with Zionists or Islamophobes. It has everything to do with perceptions that yes can be used to hate Muslims if the people who think they are defending Muslims don't stick to the actual issues and stop making childish and purile comments about imagined Zionist boogy men. Blaming Zionists won't make the issue go away or articles such as this one talking in the here and now about what is going down on the streets: http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html Here is the typical kind of reaction Norway is having to this phenomena: http://en.europenews.dk/Rape-epidemic-in-Norway-caused-by-Muslim-immigration-78667.html Me personally I think it is ridiculous to deny a problem with rape and Muslim immigrants because its too mainstream to ignore now. I myself have reservations as to how some of the statistics are being used to derive the conclusions. Here's an article backing up what I argue and that is not talking about the problem in Noway won't make it go away: http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2011/august/culture-crisis-norway-tackles-muslim-immigration-/?mobile=false What I know is that In 2004, a report was coonducted by the NIBR (Norwegian Institute for Urban and Regional Research) which came to the conclusion that: "ethnic gangs can give Norway the kind of immigrant-related organised crime that accompanied waves of migration to the USA." The person who wrote the report, Dr. Inger-Lise Lien, also stated: "If we look at youth under the age of 19 charged with crimes in Oslo, immigrants are unfortunately largely overrepresented. In certain Oslo districts -- Furuset, Stovner and Gamle Oslo -- gang criminality has a grip. Criminal gangs becoming solid organisations is a sign in international research of an incipient mafia structure being built." For the above go to http://www.arthurkemp.com/?p=105 A report in Aftenposten as far back as in 2001 tated: : “While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases.” and it stated: “In other words,” says the New American, “Muslims from Africa and other benighted Third World places are targeting Western women for rape.” It elaborates: “In 2005, the blogger Fjordman reported on a similar rape wave in Sweden. A crime prevention study that year reported that Algerians, Libyans, Moroccans, and Tunisians ‘dominate the group of rape suspects,’ he reported. The same year, the newspaper Aftonbladet reported that nearly half of all rapists were immigrants.” What won't go away in Norway is a June 2010 police report that stated: 1-every single solved case of assault-rape in the country in 2010 was carried out by a Muslim immigrant; 2- there was a total of 186 of known rape cases in 2010, he largest one of which iwas assault-rape, carried out by sheer physical force, of which there were 86 cases and that in 83 of these cases the perpetrator could be identified by the victim.and in all 83, the attacker was described as having "non-western appearance," The perception from that report is out there and it has to be talked about intelligently. It won't go away.
Argus Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 It does. You just refuse to see it. It most assuredly does not. You can say white while I say black all day long, but the evidence is in the manner and behaviour of Muslim societies. There are NONE which are peaceful and tolerant NONE. There are over fifty Muslim majority states and not one is anything like peaceful and tolerant. Further, you ignore the fact that many of the messages in the Koran which you suggest preach peace and tolerance are only referring to how Muslims should act towards other Muslims. How they should treat infidels has been posted many times before in this thread, all of which you completely ignore. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) One of the most shocking things about the British prostitution scandal, aside from the sheer scale of it-- numerous groups involved, with several dozen men in all-- and the number of victims-- believed to be around 1400-- and the length of time it went on-- 16 years-- is that the police and politicians were more concerned with covering it up than they were with doing anything to stop it. They were afraid of being accused of racism. They were afraid that if the information got out, it would fuel racism. They did their best to deny there was even a problem. We've seen the same from police media and authorities in Nordic countries for the last several years. There is a wholesale denial of any problem, a blithe determination to pretend everyone is happy and that refugees and immigrants are fitting in just perfectly. We see the same thing here, both from progressives on this web site, and from Canadian media and politicians. This is why we keep no race or ethnic based crime statistics, aside from aboriginals. It's not that nobody ever thought to do so. It's that politicians have forbidden the keeping of such statistics by police for fear they will provide fuel for 'bigots'. Mind you, that admission in itself, shows the progressives know very well the numbers are disproportionate, else they wouldn't have any fear of keeping them. How many rapes in Canada are by immigrants and refugees? How many by Muslims? They don't want us to know for some reason. Edited January 12, 2016 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 By The Numbers - The Untold Story of Muslim Opinions & Demographics I watched the video, and agree when she says this: radicalism is a problem, and it's a growing problem. I note that she brings up the election of Morsi in Egypt in 2012 as part of a Jihadi initiative to take over the world. To add some context, here's some more information. At the time, the choices the Egyptians were faced with was Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood and Ahmed Shafik, who had been the last president under Mubarek. Egyptians overall were not pleased with the choices they were given, many refused to vote and those who did vote felt that they were essentially having to choose between Muslim Brotherhood oppression, or a continuation of Mubarek's oppression. Morsi won by a small margin, promising to bring in reforms related to status of women, democracy and other more Western ideals, promises he failed to follow through on. Egyptians were not happy and proceeded to demonstrate against him until the military refused to follow Morsi's instruction to move against the protestors and told Morsi he should step down voluntarily. Twenty four hours later, when it was believed that Morsi was going to address the nation and step down, he said instead: "Egyptian blood will flow and I will not give up power". The military, who believe they are 'protectors of the people of Egypt' then took him out. When the States condemned the Military taking over the government and deposing Morsi, many Egyptians saw this as US backing Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood, and suspect that the US would have been happy to have the Muslim Brotherhood in power. Sisi has in the three years since, done much to progress toward the democracy Egypt wants, including championing the rights and freedoms of women and minorities. Most Egyptians are happy with him, trust him, and are happy with the direction the country is going, though there is still a contingent of Muslim Brotherhood supporters. Reza doesn't tell us the whole story here, only the part that will fan our fears. Where else isn't she telling us the whole story? Surveys are useful and honestly, I'm a great believer in them. Yes, many Muslims do hold opinions that are radical to many of us. But what would happen if you surveyed Christians on similar things? Would they seem any more reasonable? Consider what this survey of Christian activists found: "Christian Reconstruction ranked fairly high among the respondents. Fifty-two percent agreed with the statement, "Christians should take dominion over all aspects of society." Only 39% agreed that "American law should be based on Old Testament law." Ethnic, racial, and religious diversity scored low, with only 40% supporting such ideas. Again, no surprise, since only 31% said "a person can be both a good Christian and a liberal." 35% of Christians support an 'eye for an eye' scriptural basis for the death penalty, an old-testament teaching that a couple of people here have claimed is no longer part of Christianity's teachings. 48% of US Christians do not accept homosexuality (though almost none would kill over it, they expect God will do the killing). Still, there are right-wing Christians who advocate for severe penalties against homosexuals outside their country, and no doubt within it some day, they hope. 70% of US Republicans think it would be a good idea to make Christianity the "Official National Religion". So, if such a large percentage of Christians in the US (and probably elsewhere in the Western world, if only I could find those surveys) hold such radical views, should we worry about them? Except for a relatively few, they aren't actively acting on these views, at least not in those countries who have laws against them, but shouldn't we be worried anyway? Should the US disallow Republicans, since 57% of them would dismantle the Constitution to make Christianity the official religion, and 70% of them support such an idea? Just how frightened should we be of *opinions* held by a majority of any single group? Currently, in Canada, there are approximately 350,000 Muslims. They are not protesting en mass for Sharia law, any more than Christians en mass are protesting for Christian law, even though both groups may believe such laws would be better for society. Nobody except a *white, Christian, Canadian* politician has suggested abrogating anyone's freedoms or rights because of their beliefs. We have far more Christians in Canada than Muslims; I wonder what the response would be if they were surveyed with the question; "Do you think a country's laws should be based on Biblical law?" I bet even moderate Christians would think this is a good idea. Would we then jump to the conclusion that these Christians are planning to take over the country? Let me repeat: It's not that I don't think there is a problem with extremism and radicalization, and that the world doesn't need to find a solution, the sooner the better. I just don't agree that the solution comes with fear-mongering, simplistic answers such as "it's their religion" or bombing the hell out of those countries who happen to have a different viewpoint from ours.
dialamah Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 It most assuredly does not. You can say white while I say black all day long, but the evidence is in the manner and behaviour of Muslim societies. There are NONE which are peaceful and tolerant NONE. There are over fifty Muslim majority states and not one is anything like peaceful and tolerant. Actually, I say "Gray" while you demand "Black' or "White". As to wars, how about the wars Canada has been involved in, say from 1900 till now? Turns out that we've been involved in wars somewhere or other for 40 of those 115 years. Hmmmm ... we're not a religion, but we're pretty warlike. Still, we don't seem to hold a candle to the warlike activities of the Middle East, who've been involved in various conflicts almost constantly for those same 120 years. But what if we added the United States, Australia, the UK into our own 'war activities'? Would we still be significantly behind the Middle East in military activity? Not in the least, perhaps we'd even surpass them; the US alone has spent 93 out of the last 115 years engaged in some armed conflict somewhere, and sometimes simultaneously in several countries over several years. UK has 92 years of conflict to its credit, at home and around the world, and Australia matches Canada at ~40 years. Moving away from Western powers, India boasts 97 years of conflict out of 115 and China alone, about ~90. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture. Almost non-stop conflict is not specific to the Middle East, nor to Muslims. It's the 'human condition'. Now, maybe we could go farther back in history, the full centuries you claim 'proves' how much more warlike Muslims are, but then we'd have to talk about things like the Spanish inquisition, Christian Holy Wars, all the wars of Europe and Asia. If you want to research that to prove to me that Muslims are so much more warlike, please do so. Maybe you'll persuade me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_wars_and_battles
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