Islamophobia in Canada

[kimmy]

Argus mentioned this in a status update, but I thought this thread would be a pertinent place to discuss it.

Hundreds of men described as "Arab or North African" conducted group assaults on women in Cologne Germany on New Year's Eve.

Is it really a "phobia" if it's justified? Is it still paranoia if they really are out to get you?

When people here have expressed concern about what increasing numbers of Muslims would mean for women and gay people, they've been shouted down with accusations of racism and bigotry.

Norway and Denmark are now making the refugees attend mandatory "don't rape people" seminars in response to violence, and now we have these new incidents from Germany. Is it still racism, or is it okay to suggest that maybe there is some justification for the concern?

-k

[Guest]

Discrimination against Muslims have skyrocketed since the Paris attacks. For example, in the UK, it has tripled. You know very well that it's more than some guy insulting someone on a bus. In the U.S., you have a presidential candidate saying Muslims should be banned from entering a country and you have other politicians saying Syrian refugees should be shot in the head. It's become ugly. Really ugly.

Marginalization and discrimination based on ignorance and bigotry does nothing to improve the situation. Not to mention that we are continuously bombing Syria and Iraq where at least 200 people a day are being killed. The West's military approach and the discrimination against Muslims is only helping the ISIS recruiters.

I keep asking what kind of discrimination it would take to get someone to cut someone's head off, or just join a group that has that as a pastime, and no-one can say. I know you can discriminate against me and I won't cut anyone's head off. I won't rape a Yazidi woman or even destroy an ancient temple.

I will grant you that some might be tempted to do just that if a family member were killed in an air raid. And that would be a shame, but certainly no reason to stop the air raids. Not given the reasons for them - (see heads, yazidis, etc. above) But not many.

No, those who join, especially from the west, already have a fanatical bent, and a little bit of a talking to by a local religious leader is all it takes.

Edited January 6, 2016 by bcsapper

[WestCanMan]

What about the 1.2 billion other Muslims in the world who want to come here, take over and kill us all (according to you)?

Oh riiiiiiiight. Our main concern is people on the other side of the Atlantic who are going to float over here on giant rafts and then quickly assemble tanks and fighter planes once they get here. Kinda like Hannibal, because noone would ever expect it. Thanks for alerting me to the danger big guy.

[WestCanMan]

Norway and Denmark are now making the refugees attend mandatory "don't rape people" seminars in response to violence, and now we have these new incidents from Germany. Is it still racism, or is it okay to suggest that maybe there is some justification for the concern?

-k

Some of our "sunny days gang" need to go over to those countries and explain to them that every culture on earth is identical, and that they are being racist. I think it's been proven here that race and culture are the same thing.

[WestCanMan]

I answered the gist of a really poorly written question.

Hey, there's another upside to Islamophobia, all the heartwarming concern towards the plight of the homeless you guy's seem to have recently developed - like your concern for homosexuals.

Why should homelessness be an issue now that you conservatives have become concerned about it?

No. If you think wasting billions on policies that create refugees in the first place is such a good idea you pay for it.

Is it fair to assume that anyone holds a certain opinion about homosexuality or homelessness based on their view of Islam? Are you 100% certain that there are no gay Islamophobes? I mean, why wouldn't gays be afraid of Muslims? You know what Muslims do to gays right? Or did I just make a racist comment, despite the fact that I'm talking about a culture, not a race, and the fact that it's true.

Edited January 6, 2016 by WestCanMan

[tworivers]

Is it fair to assume that anyone holds a certain opinion about homosexuality or homelessness based on their view of Islam? Are you 100% certain that there are no gay Islamophobes? I mean, why wouldn't gays be afraid of Muslims? You know what Muslims do to gays right? Or did I just make a racist comment, despite the fact that I'm talking about a culture, not a race, and the fact that it's true.

Listen to what a lot of people are saying and yes most would consider that racist.

As I said before , we need to sit down here in Canada and talk about what exactly we as a society will accept into this country .

Multiculturalism is a failure and a dream . If people try to talk and the only thing others can say is "your racist" then we have even a bigger problem which will not go away and in a short time will become a gaping hole that will get to big to ignore and yes I am talking violence right here in our Canada.

You can only push so far and then people will push back, the pushing back will depend on how honest and open the dialogue is .

[GostHacked]

Listen to what a lot of people are saying and yes most would consider that racist.

As I said before , we need to sit down here in Canada and talk about what exactly we as a society will accept into this country .

Multiculturalism is a failure and a dream . If people try to talk and the only thing others can say is "your racist" then we have even a bigger problem which will not go away and in a short time will become a gaping hole that will get to big to ignore and yes I am talking violence right here in our Canada.

You can only push so far and then people will push back, the pushing back will depend on how honest and open the dialogue is .

What do we accept into this country? Well look at what we are accepting with our foreign policy. This migrant and refugee crisis has had a lot of contribution from Canada and it's allies in pursuit of this war on terror and trying to pacify part of the middle east baddies while supporting other baddies.

Our own government has not been open and honest about much of this. With that I am not optimistic that things will change. Good thing we voted for change , yet again, and with much of the same old boss.

[Argus]

It increases the chances of it happening. Kind of like the French and Belgium nationals who carried out the Paris attacks. It takes one lone pissed off impressionable kid, to be embraced by the terrorist organizations and then learn to make a bomb in his basement in Kentucky, to make a huge impact.

Except there's no evidence any of those people suffered any particular discrimination. Again, referring to San Bernadino, the perpetrators were comfortably middle class, the husband with a good job. Nidal Hassan was a major in the US army and a doctor. Yet he still picked up a gun and slaughtered his colleagues. The people on board the planes flown into the world trade center were comfortable Saudis. It's not discrimination or poverty which inspires terrorism its religious fanaticism.

[Argus]

Argus mentioned this in a status update, but I thought this thread would be a pertinent place to discuss it.

Hundreds of men described as "Arab or North African" conducted group assaults on women in Cologne Germany on New Year's Eve.

Is it really a "phobia" if it's justified? Is it still paranoia if they really are out to get you?

The ongoing insistence by progressives is that no matter how often Muslims misbehave we are to assume that any particular Muslims is as forward thinking and inclusive and peace loving as any western citizen. Which in itself is true. But they insist on carrying that forward to say that bringing in ten thousand or a hundred thousand, or a million Muslims must be undertaken with the assumption all of them are eager to adopt a western mindset, and that is nonsensical. Generalizing about Muslims can be done if what you say is generally true. Now I agree you can't assume an individual will fulfill these characteristics, but we're not talking individuals, but large groups of tens and hundreds of thousands. That large a group tends to follow the same pattern set in the generalization.

And this sort of thing didn't just happen in Cologne. It's happening in other German cities, as well. Those of us who saw this coming were sneered at for our bigotry, but it was a foregone conclusion that when you invite hundreds of thousands of men from a society in which women are considered whores if they show an ankle or some hair, into a western society there's going to be trouble.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35241818

[Rue]

Some of our "sunny days gang" need to go over to those countries and explain to them that every culture on earth is identical, and that they are being racist.

Better idea How about you take your self to ISIL and share the above and see if they hug you.

So much for anthropology. Why did Margaret Mead even bother.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

I know you can discriminate against me and I won't cut anyone's head off. I won't rape

BC with due respect any human with the right conditioning will discriminate, kill, rape. That's been proven. We humans are not that evolved past our primal base instincts. Doesn't take much to get them to surface.

That said I do understand your real point, which is why do people join extremist groups or violent groups and others don't.

The easiest explanation and by no means the exact one as its obviously a complex questin and answer is that we humans are apes-pack animals. We are by nature violent and follow alpha males into war against other packs.

So at the pith and substance of your question is the simple answer-because we are apes and that is what apes are known to do.

Now the question is, if we supposedly have the gift of intelligence or the ability as individuals to make decisions and have the option not to follow why do we?

Well you can get into debates about how the environment, your family, your society, your predisposition (genetic profile you are born with) all factor into your choices. You can of course blame it on colonialism, Jews, Americans, Argus, poverty, Stephen Harper's wife, Celine Dion's music, etc., but bottom line is what we do know is you can have two humans from the same womb, the same mother, born and living and coming from the exact and same environment with all the same influences including almost identical genetic codes and yet one can grow up to be a violent terrorist or thief and the other a peaceful person.

So we have plenty of possible and sometimes interesting and down right insightful explanations but they can only explain certain things not all things and so your question remains an open ended debate.

Could you be forced to do something you would never do in your right mind? Probably. Would you in your present state choose terrorism, no I doubt it but then if people raped your mother in front of you, lit your father on fire, bashed your children's heads in, in front of you, or repeatedly tortured or beat you who knows how you would react. You might turn inwords and never come out, you might go the other extreme and lash out and become violent, or go on to be a peaceful person.

Having worked with sex abuse victims I am here to say the myth all these abuse survivors turn violent is just not true. They can and do learn to break the vicious cycle of violence they lived in. That said as well, I have met personally Palestinians and Israelis who have witnessed terrorism against their families first hand-Irish people like that too. They did not choose violence. That is all I can tell you. So for their sake I say to you, they are the people I care to remember.

Because of them I reject apologists for terrorists because it insults their battle to have overcome and I personally I believe apologizing and making excuses for terrorism is apology for moral failure.

Terrorism is failed human behaviour at its worse. Making excuses for it insults and belittles all those people who have witnessed the worst humanity has to offer and did not sink to the lows of what they saw.

So for those survivors I stand by them not the trendy twits who like to make excuses for and portray terrorists as misunderstood unemployed people who are victims of injustice.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Rue

[Guest]

BC with due respect any human with the right conditioning will discriminate, kill, rape. That's been proven. We humans are not that evolved past our primal base instincts. Doesn't take much to get them to surface.

Could you be forced to do something you would never do in your right mind? Probably. Would you in your present state choose terrorism, no I doubt it but then if people raped your mother in front of you, lit your father on fire, bashed your children's heads in, in front of you, or repeatedly tortured or beat you who knows how you would react. You might turn inwords and never come out, you might go the other extreme and lash out and become violent, or go on to be a peaceful person.

I don't really see the disagreemnt. I basically said that a person could be horrified into extremism, but not discriminated into it. Unless they were nutcases in the first place.

[Rue]

The ongoing insistence by progressives is that no matter how often Muslims misbehave we are to assume that any particular Muslims is as forward thinking and inclusive and peace loving as any western citizen. Which in itself is true. But they insist on carrying that forward to say that bringing in ten thousand or a hundred thousand, or a million Muslims must be undertaken with the assumption all of them are eager to adopt a western mindset, and that is nonsensical. Generalizing about Muslims can be done if what you say is generally true. Now I agree you can't assume an individual will fulfill these characteristics, but we're not talking individuals, but large groups of tens and hundreds of thousands. That large a group tends to follow the same pattern set in the generalization.

And this sort of thing didn't just happen in Cologne. It's happening in other German cities, as well. Those of us who saw this coming were sneered at for our bigotry, but it was a foregone conclusion that when you invite hundreds of thousands of men from a society in which women are considered whores if they show an ankle or some hair, into a western society there's going to be trouble.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35241818

I believe they are simply inarticulate. I think the point they are making and doing a piss poor job of because they were never taught to finish a sentence or thought...partially due to their dependence on cell phones and computers that have dulled their senses and made them unable to read more than 5 words before their brains collapse inwords.. is simply that because some or many or a group or an indentified segment of Muslims are terrorists or extremists, doesn't make all Muslims terrorists or extremists.

I believe they can't articulate that. Ironically, their soft, Western education that has created drones, sheep who attention spans of about 5 words before they go fzzzz were also brought up to think their own sheeyit don't stink and so if they have an opinion it can't be questioned.

Just look at the responses we get on this forum if we use the word Muslim. Their brains can't flex. The moment we use the word, it means we hate Muslims.

It is of course logical to argue against you and I if we state, ALL Muslims are terrorists. That is illogical.

However when you and I and others make it clear that not all Muslims are terrorists but its a problem within their society dominating their politics at this time and causing major issues we get labelled anti Muslim.

In the case of Jacee's response to me eaerlier she made it clear any criticism of any Muslim society I make must be unfair. She could not explain why but she felt an immediate urge to issue the condemnation. This is what being dependent on cell phones, computers and others does. Computers, cell phones, peer group pressure, prevents an individual from following through with even one sentence.

They can start a response but they have no idea how to finish it. They can propose or asset or initiate an allegation but it stops there.

So, what you see is illiteracy or inarticulate people inaction. They can say you can't use the word Muslim but they can't say why.

Did you see West's ridiculous assertion all cultures are the same meaning we can't criticize any culture otherwise that makes us racist? Wow.

The trendy left as you kniw are fascist-they always have been. Fascism comes from Liberalism, they are just the extreme form of liberalism-they love to pose their righteous opinions as absolute and extreme with no variation. This is why you have someone like Justin of Trudeau putting his hand on his heart and the crowd signalling back in unison. Its pack behaviour-is the believe the alpha male representing all that is good will impose justice for all. Saint Justin of Trudeau will deliver us all.

In your case they want to label you as being against all Muslims and not just Muslim terrorists or extremists because when you think about it, you won't pose with Muslim babies. That's what it gets down to. They truly believe if you hug a Muslim everything will be just fine. Nothing a photo op can't make go away. Smelly people with brown and black skin dying-no problem poof they are gone because Justin's taking in 25,000 Syrians. Poof the world's injustice washed away by a few hugs and giggle photos and now we move on to those pesky brown skinned folks up North sniffing glue. We dab our eye with a kerchief and cry on cue, appoint an aboriginal Justice Minister, promise an inquiry, promise to throw billions at aboriginals without holding anyone accountable for how it will be spent and poof magic that problem is gone.

You get it? Clearly not Argus. Its all about feeling good. Smiling, Patting yourself on the back.

That's the battle you face on this forum. If you criticize j extremist Muslims or phony feel god guilt ridden sob's, they will try change what you said to infer you hate all Muslims or all aboriginals or all people. Lol.

You give a damn. Of course not and neither do I.

I have yet to see one of the people who accuse you of being anti Muslim or myself or others who state our opinions come to you or me with any of my words that we said that depict all Muslims as evil or terrorists .

Jacee and others have been quick to accuse me of this but ironically they never provide any words from me where I said what they claim I said.

I have read hundreds of responses from the same people calling me anti Muslim smeering all Jews or all Israelis or all Americans lacking the insight to understand they engage in the very negative generalization they accuse me of in their responses.

You are intelligent enough to know the difference between all Muslims and the despicable ones within their society. That is where it ends and its good enough for me. However for those who disagree with you and have no idea how to respond, its an easy device to just call you a racist. Real easy and you know how that works. Racist! Racist! Ah yes, once the name is thrown out they no longer have to say anything else. Hey its one way an inarticulate person avoids being exposed as inarticulate, throwing out the Muslim card, or whatever ism or ist like accusation they can muster at the moment.

What is even more hilarious is the inarticulate, hero worship their own inability to articulate bragging they can only read, comprehend and write short bursts of accusation with no reasoning to back up their conclusions. Its worn like a badge of honour on this forum.

In fact I had one person tell me my post was too long and when I asked him, o.k. then, point out the sentences that re redundant, he looked at me and said-no I was hoping you would tell me!

Well ten I asked, how did you even know it was too long? Well hell, it was more than a sentence. I mean geez does he have t explain more then that?

Listen, you won't change the minds of certain people on this forum-you in fact petrify them. They can't admit Muslims or for that matter any other humans other than Jews or Americans or whoever their boogyman of choice is, that there are any other boogy

You know the shtick they are wrapped in-its called denial or wishful thinking. Bad things only happen to bad people. Since you are bad (hateful of all Muslims) only bad people will attack you. Since they love all Muslims, nothing bad will happen to them. You've read it, Muslims are only bad because Jews or Americans are.

You read the lingo of people who rationalize and apologize for or deny terrorism you will see they romanticize it and portray themselves as being higher than you in spiritual level because they know and you don't that within these terrorists are just good people who are misunderstood and if you just give them a chance they will be nice. I mean after all we are all the same. You heard West, we are al the same.

Look, they don't get the smell. Until they get the smell of death they will never understand.

I would love to be able to send them a bag of decaying flesh and have them smell it I swear to you most of of them would never come on this forum again making purile pat comments about terrorism but that won't happen. I suspect though that if just one person who disagrees with you or I thinks otherwise about terrorists, it will be sufficient.

As hard as it is for me to read some responses on this forum I will take for example anything Jacee says, because deep down inside I read idealism and a refusal to accept any human as a savage. Totally disagree with her on real life, but on that point, I cherish her opinion and her right to ridicule me for sanctimonious references. Lol its on point. If you can't laugh at yourself that screw yourself I say.

There was a time when I first realized walking in this stony corridor that any human could become a monster under the right circumstances. It makes you think really there is no point-all humans are disgusting and not worth the time of day.

However someone has to clean the streets. I was just standing there thinking, well someone has to wipe up the vomit, flush the fluid and blood. You can't just leave the guts to the flies. Someone has to walk the shocked people away/

I don't know it was just something in me that said, leave the earth or the road the way I found it. I was always taught to pick up trash. So I cleaned it up as best I could. Then I thought, well if I put a bullet in me now, someone else will have to clean my trash up and so why would I want to be such a two face?

So in a weird way like many others I know who have had to go on a service mission that put an ideal value ahead of our own individual value, I thought, nah, I will not make a mess on the way out-that would make me no better than these sob terrorists.

I thought, I will hang around long enough to annoy the shit out of them and make it as hard for them as possible and in due time make sure I feed myself to the vultures on my terms- my favourite life form on earth-vultures -they are the unsung heroes- not these terrorists-they are the ones who clean the streets when no one else will and there is nothing more noble then a street cleaner.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

I don't really see the disagreemnt. I basically said that a person could be horrified into extremism, but not discriminated into it. Unless they were nutcases in the first place.

Acknowledged.

[Big Guy]

Oh riiiiiiiight. Our main concern is people on the other side of the Atlantic who are going to float over here on giant rafts and then quickly assemble tanks and fighter planes once they get here. Kinda like Hannibal, because noone would ever expect it. Thanks for alerting me to the danger big guy.

Hey, what about the "fight them there or fight them here" mentality or all those other excuses for Afghanistan and now our involvement in that Sunni - Shia civil war. And what about the "Islam is a violent and dangerous religion". You mean we might be making a mistake getting involved?

[Argus]

Hey, what about the "fight them there or fight them here" mentality or all those other excuses for Afghanistan and now our involvement in that Sunni - Shia civil war. And what about the "Islam is a violent and dangerous religion". You mean we might be making a mistake getting involved?

The only mistake was allowing millions of them to come here if we were going to fight them there.

[eyeball]

I wonder what sort of spin will attend the reportage of guards raping Muslims in deportation camps?

You didn't hear this here first, I seem to recall warning about the day we'd be rounding up Muslims ten years or more ago when discussing the course the world was on.

That's where Islamophobia has been taking us, but probably in Europe first. Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back.

[Hudson Jones]

Except there's no evidence any of those people suffered any particular discrimination. Again, referring to San Bernadino, the perpetrators were comfortably middle class, the husband with a good job. Nidal Hassan was a major in the US army and a doctor. Yet he still picked up a gun and slaughtered his colleagues. The people on board the planes flown into the world trade center were comfortable Saudis. It's not discrimination or poverty which inspires terrorism its religious fanaticism.

Don't be naive. It's not religion.

The 9/11 attackers were not religious. The motivation is revenge for what the West has done or what they think the West is responsible for:

In Osama Bin Laden's November 2002 "Letter to America", he explicitly stated that al-Qaeda's motives for their attacks include: Western support for attacking Muslims in Somalia, supporting Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, supporting the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, the Jewish aggression against Muslims in Lebanon, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, US support of Israel, and sanctions against Iraq.

Link

[poochy]

Argus mentioned this in a status update, but I thought this thread would be a pertinent place to discuss it.

Hundreds of men described as "Arab or North African" conducted group assaults on women in Cologne Germany on New Year's Eve.

Is it really a "phobia" if it's justified? Is it still paranoia if they really are out to get you?

When people here have expressed concern about what increasing numbers of Muslims would mean for women and gay people, they've been shouted down with accusations of racism and bigotry.

Norway and Denmark are now making the refugees attend mandatory "don't rape people" seminars in response to violence, and now we have these new incidents from Germany. Is it still racism, or is it okay to suggest that maybe there is some justification for the concern?

-k

Not one of the "you're a racist, you're a bigot, you're a xenophobe" gang has even bothered themselves to repond to this question. Why?

[Hal 9000]

I wonder what sort of spin will attend the reportage of guards raping Muslims in deportation camps?

You didn't hear this here first, I seem to recall warning about the day we'd be rounding up Muslims ten years or more ago when discussing the course the world was on.

That's where Islamophobia has been taking us, but probably in Europe first. Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back.

I love this line, I'm gonna keep it in my signature if that's all right.

[eyeball]

I love this line, I'm gonna keep it in my signature if that's all right.

Fly at it, and thanks. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Feel free to slap it on your bumper while you're at it.

[Hudson Jones]

Argus mentioned this in a status update, but I thought this thread would be a pertinent place to discuss it.

Hundreds of men described as "Arab or North African" conducted group assaults on women in Cologne Germany on New Year's Eve.

Is it really a "phobia" if it's justified? Is it still paranoia if they really are out to get you?

When people here have expressed concern about what increasing numbers of Muslims would mean for women and gay people, they've been shouted down with accusations of racism and bigotry.

Norway and Denmark are now making the refugees attend mandatory "don't rape people" seminars in response to violence, and now we have these new incidents from Germany. Is it still racism, or is it okay to suggest that maybe there is some justification for the concern?

-k

These are shitty people. Are they shitty people because they are Muslim or because of their cultural upbringing? I mean, what about Turks? Iranians?Both of those predominantly Muslim people have a huge population in Germany. Do the groping shitty people from North Africa represent all Muslims? Do they even represent all North Africans?

This is the issue with your generalizations.

[Argus]

Don't be naive. It's not religion.

The 9/11 attackers were not religious. The motivation is revenge for what the West has done or what they think the West is responsible for:

In Osama Bin Laden's November 2002 "Letter to America", he explicitly stated that al-Qaeda's motives for their attacks include: Western support for attacking Muslims in Somalia, supporting Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, supporting the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, the Jewish aggression against Muslims in Lebanon, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, US support of Israel, and sanctions against Iraq.

Link

Sounds like he threw in everything but the kitchen sink. But if he's so outraged over Indian oppression of Kashmir why not blow up an Indian building? If he's so outraged over what the Russians were doing why not blow up a Russian building? If he was so outraged over Jewish aggression (?!) in Lebanon, why not blow up a Jew or two? I'll give you he was outraged by the US presence in Saudi Arabia - even though the Saudi government invited them in. But he was outraged over the presence of infidels in what he considered holy Muslim territory. I wonder if you'd be sympathetic if some Catholics in Italy decided to slaughter Muslims because they were 'infidels on Holy Christian territory'.

Methinks he was just making stuff up, though. He attacked the Americans because they're the most powerful Christian nation and he hated Christians.

[kimmy]

These are shitty people. Are they shitty people because they are Muslim or because of their cultural upbringing? I mean, what about Turks? Iranians?Both of those predominantly Muslim people have a huge population in Germany. Do the groping shitty people from North Africa represent all Muslims? Do they even represent all North Africans?

This is the issue with your generalizations.

Every step of the way, people who questioned the wisdom of bringing in large numbers of people from socially backwards lands have been met with accusations of Islamophobia.

And in response to this incident that illustrates the dangers of bringing in large numbers of people from socially backwards lands, the response is "hey man, that's not Islam's fault, its just that these people are from socially backwards lands."

This was my complaint all along.

-k

[eyeball]

Every step of the way, people who questioned the wisdom of bringing in large numbers of people from socially backwards lands have been met with accusations of Islamophobia.

And in response to this incident that illustrates the dangers of bringing in large numbers of people from socially backwards lands, the response is "hey man, that's not Islam's fault, its just that these people are from socially backwards lands."

This was my complaint all along.

-k

Every step of the way, people who questioned the wisdom of installing dictators in socially backwards lands have been met with accusations of being a lefty with a bleeding heart.

And the response to concerns that it was dangerous to punish socially backwards lands for these dictators has been "hey man, that's not our fault, its just that these people are socially backwards. Besides which you're just a bleeding heart liberal"

Complaining has been a waste of time for everyone.